Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

[FeelTheRads]

Why should I waste time and resources in a boring fight against beetles that won't give anything, not even XP?

I think you greatly underestimate the fog of war. It is said that it alone can drive entire games.

 

[Crooked Bee]

So far pretty much every single party-based CRPG has proved the "you can't solo it" statement wrong. No matter its design philosophy, I don't expect PoE to be different in this regard.

Also, felipepepe, PoE may or may not turn out to be a failure, but you can't really call Sawyer more arrogant than your average Codex poster who discusses RPG design. Also also, I think a perfectly balanced CRPG would be an interesting experiment - and I always welcome experimental approaches to RPG design - again, no matter if PoE achieves this goal or not.

 

[Cosmo]

Instead of empty statements like calling my notions imaginary, tell me where they are wrong.

You keep using the same examples ad libitum, and i keep explaining why they're not valid. It gets tiring after a while.
I played DS SL1 and yes it's still the same game, the changes may take a leap towards extreme difficulty and unforgiveness, but the gameplay is the fucking SAME. Intensified yes, but the same.
And as i already said, you prove nothing with DS, because all of your damn examples are things you do by your own volition, you choose not to upgrade your character or your weapons, etc.
Trash options on the other hand are trash precisely when you're locked by the game (not yourself !!) in a subpar situation without having made any choice. In other words, none of your examples have anything to do with trash options, they're only (and i say that for the last time) self-imposed limitations.

 

[HiddenX]

So far pretty much every single party-based CRPG has proved the "you can't solo it" statement wrong. No matter its design philosophy, I don't expect PoE to be different in this regard.

Also, felipepepe, PoE may or may not turn out to be a failure, but you can't really call Sawyer more arrogant than your average Codex poster who discusses RPG design. Also also, I think a perfectly balanced CRPG would be an interesting experiment - and I always welcome experimental approaches to RPG design - again, no matter if PoE achieves this goal or not.

felipepepe listen to your secondary consigliere and continue the good fight -> Perfectly balanced CRPGs are a bad pipe-dream. I suspect by trying to reach that goal we'll get a well balanced equalized auto-leveled flattened mix between Dragon Age 2 and Skyrim.
More character-, combat-, spell-, crafting-, equipment-, looting- and trading options, more traits, more class restrictions, more diversity should be the goal of a game designer not less. Create games in which a second play-through feels different if the player creates a different party and/or make different choices!

I remember games where party creation was a fun pre-game in itself and could last several hours; re-create this feeling and I'm happy.

 

[felipepepe]

Cosmo:

Transmuter class kit in BG sucks. Someone that choose it is picking a trash choice, but some people specifically choose it for that reason.
Using fist weapons in Dark Souls sucks. Someone that choose it is picking a trash choice, but some people specifically choose it for that reason.

It's the same fucking thing, they are choices that are inferior to others. And that's what Sawyer calls bullshit. And what I disagree with.

Also, felipepepe, PoE may or may not turn out to be a failure, but you can't really call Sawyer more arrogant than your average Codex poster who discusses RPG design. Also also, I think a perfectly balanced CRPG would be an interesting experiment - and I always welcome experimental approaches to RPG design - again, no matter if PoE achieves this goal or not.

I'm not against trying new things in RPGs, I really applaud that. I love playing obscure games like Magical Diary and 7,62 High Caliber specifically to see them trying new and fresh things. But doing so in a game sold as IE-nostalgia is a douche move. If you have a cool idea, then sell it that way, don't use other's games to sell your own.

If Larian, with their minuscule fame, can do D:OS selling it without any cover-up - including controversial things like the art style and the co-op - why InXile and Obsidian keep hiding behind Fallout and the IE games? W2 will be like Fallout, but not really. Numenera will use Torment's name, but everything else will be different. PoE is a homage to IE, but made by a guy that hate IE... I love turn-based combat, but I really understand people getting butthurt over Torment changing combat systems. I would understand those as sequels released 1-2 years later by the same team, but these people are reviving decade old games just to nostalgia-bait their own games. It's the same thing we criticized with Fallout 3 and Nu-XCOM.

The worst thing is that PoE would probably be a better game if it was in fact "Suck my Dick: Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience". As it is, it's just a half-assed compromise... doesn't feed my IE nostalgia, nor presents cool new things.

I remember games where party creation was a fun pre-game in itself and could last several hours; re-create this feeling and I'm happy.

Wizardry 8 bro, never forget Wizardry 8...

 

[Infinitron]

I see Pillars of Eternity as effectively trying to combine the class-based tactical system of D&D with an attribute system and freedom of character building more akin to classless RPGs. It's almost like a classless RPG where you have 11 different classless characters with a custom, predefined perk loadout that differentiates them.

Actually, it would be cool to try to mod the game into a classless RPG by letting you pick and choose various class abilities in chargen and on level-up.

As Crooked Bee says, it is indeed very interesting.

 

[felipepepe]

Actually, it would be cool to try to mod the game into a classless RPG by letting you pick and choose various class abilities.

Or if Obsidian had the courage to do this from the start. They could, if they didn't had themselves promised a IE successor.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually, it would be cool to try to mod the game into a classless RPG by letting you pick and choose various class abilities.

Or if Obsidian had the courage to do this from the start. They could, if they didn't had themselves promised a IE successor.

Be careful what you wish for. Allowing a character to pick and choose whatever abilities he wants would no doubt have implications with regard to ~game balance~, likely leading to some serious nerfing of the existing class-exclusive abilities. That's why I said it should be a mod.

By restricting an ability to a particular class, you can make it weirder, stronger and more extreme, because that class's weaknesses balance it out.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I'm not against trying new things in RPGs, I really applaud that. I love playing obscure games like Magical Diary and 7,62 High Caliber specifically to see them trying new and fresh things. But doing so in a game sold as IE-nostalgia is a douche move. If you have a cool idea, then sell it that way, don't use other's games to sell your own.

Whenever you need to sell at all, you have to resort to this kind of "misleading" marketing 99% of the time, at least in my experience. In this case, the game also feels close enough to the IE games to not make most people care or feel cheated. As a marketing graduate, wouldn't you agree at least to some extent?

That is "dishonest" maybe*, but personally I don't particularly care about this kind of "dishonesty", as long as the result is good/interesting enough. Like I said though - and this is where we do have some common ground - it remains to be seen whether PoE is going to be interesting at all, or just uninspired and boring. In the latter case, sure you're right. In the former, the winner takes it all.

* Though see above, "the game also feels close enough to the IE games to not make most people care or feel cheated"

 

[tuluse]

The game plays almost exactly like IE games, so I don't think there was any dishonesty. They made it clear in the pitch it wasn't going to be D&D.

 

[felipepepe]

As a marketing graduate, wouldn't you agree at least to some extent?

As a marketing graduate, it's a genius move. I know that I'm the outlier in their projected satisfaction charts, and that any sensible company has to ignore me.

But as a person, I can't help but be butthurt, because yet again I'm the goddamn outlier, the 0,5% that will be ignored.

Be careful what you wish for. Allowing a character to pick and choose whatever abilities he wants would no doubt have implications with regard to ~game balance~, likely leading to some serious nerfing of the existing class-exclusive abilities. That's why I said it should be a mod.

By restricting an ability to a particular class, you can make it weirder, stronger and more extreme, because that class's weaknesses balance it out.

I agree 100% with your defense of the relevance of having classes & extreme abilities, at least in vacuum.

Because looking at PoE, I do not think that the classes are extreme. Not only there are no class-related equipment restriction, but the difference between melee classes is minimal, and the casters all do more or less the same thing, with buffs and direct damage spells, just in different forms (focusing on continuous, per day, per counter).

 

[TheGreatOne]

This thread.

The "Other developers can't talk" is funny considering a certain Tim Cain works at Obsidian and there's nothing stopping him from talking about the balance failures of Fallout and Arcanum.

Even more funny is that a certain "master designer" who has never in his life actually made a well designed video game hasn't talked about the gameplay failures of every single one of his games made after Icewind Dale, the technical failures of New Vegas or general failure of Lionheart.
And as soon as PoE will be released, it will most likely be unbalanced and min maxed by the obsessive hardcore players in a few days and then the said "master designer" wont say a word about the balance failures of PoE. The most hilarious thing is that he puts so much effort into balance when all that work is built on top of fundamentally flawed foundations (FPSRPG&RTWP). Josh Sawyer is an engineer that's trying to tweak the suspension of a car that has no motor.

 

[Infinitron]

As a marketing graduate, it's a genius move. I know that I'm the outlier in their projected satisfaction charts, and that any sensible company has to ignore me.

But as a person, I can't help but be butthurt, because yet again I'm the goddamn outlier, the 0,5% that will be ignored.


I agree 100% with your defense of the relevance of having classes & extreme abilities, at least in vacuum.

Because looking at PoE, I do not think that the classes are extreme. Not only there are no class-related equipment restriction, but the difference between melee classes is minimal, and the casters all do more or less the same thing, with buffs and direct damage spells, just in different forms (focusing on continuous, per day, per counter).

Perhaps you need to take a second look at some of the more exotic classes. Even the people who don't like the game think they're pretty cool.

 

[Harold]

Even more funny is that a certain "master designer" who has never in his life actually made a well designed video game hasn't talked about the [...] general failure of Lionheart.

If you're gonna be edgy you should at least bother to get your facts straight.

 

[Shannow]

Also, felipepepe, PoE may or may not turn out to be a failure, but you can't really call Sawyer more arrogant than your average Codex poster who discusses RPG design.

Hmm, from what I've seen (mostly second-hand quotes) he's more like Volly, than "your average Codex poster". He's right, the grognards are wrong. Period.
Whereas most actual Codex posters accept that there are different likes/dislikes/preferences/opinions/etc. Just look at felipepe's most recent comments...

 

[TheGreatOne]

If you're gonna be edgy you should at least bother to get your facts straight.

Some one actually likes Lionheart? It's no Fallout BOS, but it's also the only (computer) game in his résumé that didn't make the codex top 70

 

[Stakhanov]

Some one actually likes Lionheart? It's no Fallout BOS, but it's also the only (computer) game in his résumé that didn't make the codex top 70

Lionheart was made by Reflexive Entertainment, Sawyer's role was peripheral at most.

 

[Bitcher1]

Saying Lionheart is Sawyer's game is like saying Daggerfall is Todd Howard's. Though the latter statement would actually still be closer to the truth.
Also:

I always welcome experimental approaches to RPG design - again, no matter if PoE achieves this goal or not.

: Wymyn embracing relativism. How typical.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Lionheart was made by Reflexive Entertainment, Sawyer's role was peripheral at most.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Sawyer#Notable_game_credits
As long Lionheart and Dark Alliance are there, I'm going to use every chance I get to further tarnish his name by mentioning the fact that he had a part in the development of those games

 

[tuluse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Sawyer#Notable_game_credits
As long Lionheart and Dark Alliance are there, I'm going to use every chance I get to further tarnish his name by mentioning the fact that he had a part in the development of those games

Someone is getting tarnished here, but I don't think it's Sawyer.

 

[TheGreatOne]

JES must be really pissed that he didn't use a pseudonym. It's like if Kubrick had done make up for Troll 2 before becoming a director (never mind the fact that Troll 2 came out in 1990), only difference being that Kubrick actually was a top tier director where as JES only claims that he is the best CRPG designer of all time despite not having made even a single game that would validate that claim.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I always welcome experimental approaches to RPG design - again, no matter if PoE achieves this goal or not.

: Wymyn embracing relativism. How typical.

Every good experimental CRPG pushes the genre forward. I'm embracing progress, not relativism

 

[Stakhanov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Sawyer#Notable_game_credits
As long Lionheart and Dark Alliance are there, I'm going to use every chance I get to further tarnish his name by mentioning the fact that he had a part in the development of those games

Except that the design decisions were made by other people. I know you're butt-devastated by Roguey, but it's pretty sad to clutch at straws.

 

[NotAGolfer]

I don't see the point in making all available classes in a single player RPG equally strong, just add some difficulty settings for players to change at their convenience and make every class interesting enough to play over the course of the game so players don't get bored.
The Baldur's Gates did this quite well imo.
I don't know if Sawyer would agree to that. Just read the snippets, cause I don't really care about any of his games (New Vegas was ok though). A lot of the stuff in the snippets sounds kinda dumb and polemical to me btw, for example all his jabbering about trash options. Did he define what he meant by that anywhere or can any dumbfuck insert his own convenient definition when reading that paragraph? ... When we're at it, did he even define what's an RPG?

 

[felipepepe]

When we're at it, did he even define what's an RPG?

I think the ability to make personality choices through my character that influence the outcome of things in the world is the only requirement for a game to be an RPG.