Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

[Sentinel]

Because that text should be in-game instead of in wikipedia entries. Use world building instead of dumping a fat 300 word essay on my face in the middle of a conversation.

 

[Raghar]

PoE has a 10.4% completion rate

• Wasteland 2 has a 7.3% completion rate
• SR:HK has a 6.7% completion rate
• D:OS EE has a 5.3% completion rate
• Avadon has a 2.7% completion rate

Avadon is difficult, especially when you do that first task and think the rest of combat would be as easy. But Divinity OS EE completion rate is rather strange, because it has actual graphic and stuff.

Maybe compare that to the original D:OS?
I imagine a lot of these are replays by people who completed the original but then abandoned their second playthrough before the end.

6.5 * 100/31 = 20.9677419355

So normalized ratio of these who managed to get to Jake body and finished the whole stuff is just slightly above 1/5. http://steamcommunity.com/stats/230230/achievements This should be original version.

1/5 of these who finished initial part were willing to finish the whole thing. And that's even with decent Divinity OS graphics.

 

[FreeKaner]

Because that text should be in-game instead of in wikipedia entries. Use world building instead of dumping a fat 300 word essay on my face in the middle of a conversation.

Yes but those are not necessarily exclusive, there is certain background information about the world that can be given to the player itself, while the dialogue or conversation in the game that concerns the character AND the player can be within the game itself. Especially things like what is a state half-way across the world that you learn about by just hovering.

PoE could certainly use plenty of editing and cuts in text but I didn't feel any of that was in character creation screen.

 

[HoboForEternity]

I am leaning more to codex's criticism of poE than jeff's.


You should not dumb down the CC and lore introduction, plus nobody is forcin you to read that.

Darth roxor's and codex general criticism hit the spot nearer than vogel's article. It adresses more of the text bloat inside the actual dialogue from NPCs, that sometimes you hve to read trough because of critical path have this. Vogel's complaints are directed towards all the meta flavor texts that you can easily skip. Like weapon description and backer NPCs, do it or dont do it, fine, they let you to have options. I am a lorefag, and i think those little description about sex, races, sub races, etc and the option to pick what sub species you are is neat. If you domt care aboutvit, just pick random shit that you like the looks of and be done with it, but dont cut it entirely so people in thr other camp cannot get what they want.

Actually tyranny did a neat thing with the keyword highlight stuff. Want details? Hovervthe pointer on it. Dont care? Ignore and click the next button.

The core of the argument, tho in essence are the same, and i agree. Pillars 1 were in need of editors, and like some said, the writing was too ambitious and they diddnt have the resources to arrange chunks of text in a more coherent fashion and it ended uo becoming a collection of different bubbles with varying size and quality, not one, big, firm and strong bubble or a network of webbing where each strings support and strengthen the other.

Iti s where the complaints is directed thay dont agree with vogel.

I still love the fuck out of geneforge and i think they are worldbuilding masterpiece, but vogel's mental and creative health in recent years has been ok at best and mediocre at worst.

 

[gaussgunner]

Especially things like what is a state half-way across the world that you learn about by just hovering.

That information is irrelevant to the game, reading it is a waste of the player's time, it shouldn't be there at all. (Vogel's games have this problem too, not as bad but still way too much bullshit text.)

 

[HoboForEternity]

Vogel has had problems too with overly ambitious writings, with the self admitted avadon's factions.

I dont hatr avadon that much, but lore wise they are a mess. Potential is there to be sure, like how dharam worship their ancestor's animated spirit . . .

. . .

Oh wait, he already did it crystal souls. . .

Okay, i find the whole dharam gods are abandoned and go crazy over time and thats interesting, but we only got glimpses of it, few quests, etc.

What about the stone code? That was interesting too, but again dur to the game's structure we only visit few of those towns.

It would be so much better if he reduce the number of factions, or do it ala trails/kiseki series where you make a,sub series focusing on one region, moving on to the nexf with different heroes etc.

 

[Lacrymas]

You should not dumb down the CC and lore introduction, plus nobody is forcin you to read that.

That's literally the definition of dumbing down! Spelling out everything in the CC/whatever disconnected part of the UI, thus cheapening, or even making irrelevant, exploration and the point of roleplaying!

 

[Sentinel]

Because that text should be in-game instead of in wikipedia entries. Use world building instead of dumping a fat 300 word essay on my face in the middle of a conversation.

Yes but those are not necessarily exclusive, there is certain background information about the world that can be given to the player itself, while the dialogue or conversation in the game that concerns the character AND the player can be within the game itself. Especially things like what is a state half-way across the world that you learn about by just hovering.

PoE could certainly use plenty of editing and cuts in text but I didn't feel any of that was in character creation screen.

Thing is, and I failed to mention this in my post, the hyperlink system doesn't really achieve anything other than disrupting the flow of dialogue. It's why it's cancer and needs to go. I can already tell PoE2 is gonna suffer from the exact same problem of Tyranny in terms of world building and writing.

 

[Sizzle]

I dont hatr avadon that much, but lore wise they are a mess.

Avadon is basically the exact same game, told three times.

 

[gaussgunner]

Darth roxor's and codex general criticism hit the spot nearer than vogel's article. It adresses more of the text bloat inside the actual dialogue from NPCs, that sometimes you hve to read trough because of critical path have this. Vogel's complaints are directed towards all the meta flavor texts that you can easily skip.

Aye, Vogel is wrong. If you must fill your game with bullshit because some players like it (and you can't bear to throw away 3/4 of your novel-length writing) at least have the common courtesy to segregate it in the UI so I can safely ignore it if I just want to play the fucking game.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Vogel, from his previous interviews, seems to have a pretty low view of his customers. He thinks we're all about wish fullfillment and don't want to read. That's not true.

The problem with PoE's writing wasn't its amount, it was its lack of relevant emotional content. Make it about the player, get the player invested from their point of view. PoE failed in this from the beginning.

Example: Irenicus in BG2. Why chase him? To rescue Imoen? Fair, but not enough. So throw in revenge for his torturing you, throw in the idea of gaining power, throw in the idea of discovering something about these powers that make YOU special, uncovering the reasons for the dreams you keep having. And on top of that, you get to rescue the damsel in distress. And that's just the beginning. Later Irenicus steals your soul and you have to chase him down or die. You might chase him for revenge, to survive or to stop his plans from destroying the world or the elves or whatever.

Or what about BG1: The game starts with you having to leave your home for some unknown reason. People try to kill you, they succeed in killing Gorion. Now you have to fight to survive and figure out who is trying to kill you an how to stop them. Elements of mystery, revenge, empowerment and again, self-discovery.

Now look at PoE: You have diarrhea. Some natives attack your caravan. Weird things happen. The two characters who you might have been forming some sort of bond through adversity with die accidentally/incidentally. Now you are left to wonder around in some generic fantasy world, reading a bunch of flavor text and trying to figure out what the plot is.

Item descriptions, the lore of the world, even dialogs themselves all only matter if the player is emotionally invested. (muh emotional engagement, I know)

If you fail to get and keep the player invested, you are just wasting your time and boring everyone.

Arcanum & Exile invested the player from the first moment: You have this terrible thing done to you, you are thrown into another world as a prisoner and now you have to survive. Granted, it' not as good as BG2 or BG1, but then Vogel wasn't spamming us with text walls.

PST did spam us with text walls, but we loved it because we were deeply engaged with the plot, characters etc.

Start with engaging the player. Provide them a reason to play and continue playing. If you don't, they won't be interested enough to pay attention to your lore, dialog trees, characters etc.

 

[Sizzle]

Not even necessarily emotional engagement, PoE (often) failed in its writing because it bombarded you with information that wasn't relevant to you as a character or as a player.

 

[gaussgunner]

You should not dumb down the CC and lore introduction, plus nobody is forcin you to read that.

That's literally the definition of dumbing down! Spelling out everything in the CC/whatever disconnected part of the UI, thus cheapening, or even making irrelevant, exploration and the point of roleplaying!

I hate excessive CC with a passion. I like to get right into gameplay. CC should be one screen where you only need to commit to gameplay-affecting choices (i.e. class, gender, stats). You should be able to change cosmetic shit (e.g. hair color) any time during the game, and hoard skill points you find a need for them.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Not even necessarily emotional engagement, PoE (often) failed in its writing because it bombarded you with information that wasn't relevant to you as a character or as a player.

Yes, and that's part of my point.

"Why should I care?" was the question I kept asking myself at the start of the game. I kept asking myself this question until I quit.

I didn't quit because of the abundance of content, but rather I quit because I didn't care about any of it.

 

[Lacrymas]

Thing is, and I failed to mention this in my post, the hyperlink system doesn't really achieve anything other than disrupting the flow of dialogue. It's why it's cancer and needs to go. I can already tell PoE2 is gonna suffer from the exact same problem of Tyranny in terms of world building and writing.

They were so allergic and averse to the idea of trying to naturally weave that information in the dialogue/world they cut out the middle man altogether and just made the UI just tell you (in the middle of the dialogue) what you are conversing about. It's so blatantly incompetent and lazy I can't even.

 

[Sizzle]

It could have been done better, but it got the idea across - that you know what's going on in the world because you are a part of that world - clearer than PoE, with its "What's adra?" questions.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think I agree with the idea that every RPG has to have a naturalistic style of storytelling that "weaves information".

And to call the lack of that sort of storytelling "dumbing down" is definitely an unusual use of the term. Trying to tie your preferred style of narrative to a term that's fundamentally about game mechanics and difficulty to get the grognards on your side.

 

[Lurker King]

completion rate
Battle Brothers

haha what

Well, the game has some main events after many hours of gameplay (e.g., defeating the Greenskin invasion, the Undead Scourge or ending the noble feud) that are mini-endings supposed to stimulate a narrative feeling in the open structure of the game. You could just as well consider how many players unlocked these achievements.

LK isn't really in the habit of thinking things through before typing them up

But at least he managed to once again randomly namedrop AoD into a topic which has nothing to do with it :D

The problems are not the mistakes that result from oversight, but the mistakes that result from sheer stupidity and resentment.

 

[Sizzle]

LK isn't really in the habit of thinking things through before typing them up

But at least he managed to once again randomly namedrop AoD into a topic which has nothing to do with it :D

The problems are not the mistakes that result from oversight, but the mistakes that result from sheer stupidity and resentment.

I'm glad you're finally admitting your faults

 

[Severian Silk]

Item number one: skill trees don't belong in a Spiderweb cRPG.

They dont belong anywhere, its a shit system.

Don't the Witchers and Path of Exile also use skill trees? They were okay.

Also, lore and setting were the things I liked most about PoE (pre-patch), until the end where it started becoming stupid. It's been a while, so I don't remember if there were 100,000 words or 200,000 words, and 50,000 words too many or whatever...

If anything, the game failed to live up to the lore, which I suppose could indicate Obsidian bit off more than they could chew.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I actually don't mind the Avadons that much. The most irritating parts are definitely the whole character conversation thing though, which Vogel compounds by putting each conversant NPC at the furthest point possible in the Black Fortress. When completing a stage its always such a massive drag having to crawl around the Fortress clicking on everyone just to see if new text/quests have emerged, it becomes a tedious and repetitive routine rather than some imagined immersive story telling.

And that guy itt that said its a great world but its stifled by the limitations of the maps is quite correct. You get lore dumps that tell you how unique and distinct all the different areas are, but when you actually travel to any of them its the usual mazey trees full of spiders with a cave or building that goes on for ages that's full of bats before having the interesting end-of-stage fights. Some areas have a bit more character than others in some very slight design detail difference, but, essentially, the breadth of the lore is not usually matched by the breadth of actual game exploration.

I still find them engrossing enough to play them though and I'd rather play Avadon than a generic RPG maker game or Dragon Age sequel type games, by a huge degree of magnitude.

 

[FreeKaner]

Item number one: skill trees don't belong in a Spiderweb cRPG.

They dont belong anywhere, its a shit system.

Don't the Witchers and Path of Exile also use skill trees? They were okay.

Also, lore and setting were the things I liked most about PoE (pre-patch), until the end where it started becoming stupid. It's been a while, so I don't remember if there were 100,000 words or 200,000 words, and 50,000 words too many or whatever...

If anything, the game failed to live up to the lore, which I suppose could indicate Obsidian bit off more than they could chew.

Witchers have terrible character progression, especially 2nd and 3rd ones. Path of exile is hack & slash and not a RPG.

 

[Severian Silk]

Skill trees to me seem like skills and feats mixed together. Maybe a lazy shortcut, but not every game needs to be Fallout or D&D mechanically.

 

[Lhynn]

Don't the Witchers and Path of Exile also use skill trees? They were okay.

The system was tailor made for a witcher, the interesting part was that it encouraged you to act like a witcher. it being a tree was just the bad part of it.
Path of exile system is just horrible, its cancer. Its needlesly complicated shit. Its a good moron detector tho, people that praise it go into the retard list.

Also, lore and setting were the things I liked most about PoE

Yeah but you have horrible taste.

If anything, the game failed to live up to the lore, which I suppose could indicate Obsidian bit off more than they could chew.

Naw, lore was retardedly boring. Only interesting part was the whole god hammer thing. Its actually pretty amazing how the game manages to sidestep every interesting event in the story of the world and focus on the most banal era to live in at the most boring and uneventful time.

 

[gaussgunner]

Naw, lore was retardedly boring.

Engwithians = Egyptians. :creative: