Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

[Sizzle]

You being bossed around by people who should have no reason or right to do so is a very common RPG problem - even in games like BG2: Throne of Bhaal, where you're more powerful epic than many legendary characters there (which is why Elminister confessing even he wouldn't try to take you on now felt so very pleasing and player ego-strokey :D ).

 

[Lacrymas]

You can kill Drizzt in BG1, so you were more epic than some characters even then :p

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

so is vogel kosher or not
was going to buy avernum on steam

Avernum's a good game. Very long though.

 

[Morkar Left]

Just less servile quests in general, there is literally no reason for us to carry a necklace around for pocket change, even if you refuse it's still being offered as a realistic use of your time which is ridiculous. We are a LORD OF A CASTLE, not their friends or post office, there is no universe in which asking a noble to FedEx a ring to someone is appropriate or realistic.

You're not a lord of a castle. You're a foreign bum who squatters in a spooky ruin. You have zero right to rule. You're not noble even if you're allowed to occupy the castle. In fact, it was one of the weakest plot holes in the whole game. Not to mention how a castle which goes straight to the only main road is left in ruins, even if spooky. Or get allowed to get occupied from some mad watcher before (not you, the one before you). The necklace story was actually well explained unlike the whole get your own castle thing...

 

[Lacrymas]

You're not a lord of a castle. You're a foreign bum who squatters in a spooky ruin. You have zero right to rule. You're not noble even if you're allowed to occupy the castle. In fact, it was one of the weakest plot holes in the whole game. Not to mention how a castle which goes straight to the only main road is left in ruins, even if spooky. Or get allowed to get occupied from some mad watcher before (not you, the one before you). The necklace story was actually well explained unlike the whole get your own castle thing...

You still own the lands around Caed Nua, you might not be a hereditary noble (unless you pick that background), but you've taken the castle by force and, for all intents and purposes, you are the ruler. Nobody challenges you (edit: it turns out you do get challenged, but it only strengthens your right to rule) and I think you get referred to as "the lord of Caed Nua" iirc by other characters. You do spruce up the castle and the castle grounds, so it's not a spooky ruin forever. You even have people living there. Not to mention that you get prestigious visitors from time to time, like foreign dignitaries and high profile members of the factions in DB. The matter of fact is that by that point you are no longer an ordinary adventurer who sells themself for demeaning jobs, I know I wouldn't do it if I were in the character's shoes.

 

[Lhynn]

I still have no idea how people knew i was the "lord of Caed Nua", i didnt get the memo i guess.

 

[Galdred]

You can kill Drizzt in BG1, so you were more epic than some characters even then :p

Don't you need to cheese the battle to do so? If so, that would be even less epic than murdering him in his sleep or poisoning his food while he stays at your tavern.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Vogel's legit. I've been having fun with Avernum, once I got past an early boss and actually gained some levels.

 

[Lacrymas]

I still have no idea how people knew i was the "lord of Caed Nua", i didnt get the memo i guess.

Just like how they know you are deceitful or honorable from the first glance :p Joking aside, you are the ruler of a castle in the middle of an important trade route, at least the game frames it as such, so it's not that far fetched to assume at least some people would've heard of you. You aren't referred to as such by most people anyway.

Don't you need to cheese the battle to do so? If so, that would be even less epic than murdering him in his sleep or poisoning his food while he stays at your tavern.

Not really, depending on your level. An evil party can take him down without any cheese the moment Baldur's Gate, the city, opens up, probably even earlier, but I haven't tried it myself. You have to cheese him if you are low level though.

 

[Sizzle]

You're not a lord of a castle. You're a foreign bum who squatters in a spooky ruin. You have zero right to rule. You're not noble even if you're allowed to occupy the castle. In fact, it was one of the weakest plot holes in the whole game.

A quest chain added in v3.0 expanded upon that particular omission really well.

 

[almondblight]

I was mainly talking about the fact you can represent a quest making it sound more or less interesting despite the reality of it being otherwise if you try that. Help woman reconcile with her Mother for the lighthouse quest, really?

The social worker comment wasn't about the quest being "interesting" or not, but about how many end up coming back to depressing domestic strife. You're right, the lighthouse quest is about clearing ghosts out from the lighthouse - so why do I end up having a conversation with some stranger about how she needs to work through the unresolved issues with her mother? The fact that so many people didn't even pay attention to whether it was her mother or lover suggests that they got bored and just started clicking through the sob story dialogue, and I don't blame them.

And there's so many quests like this in the first part of the game. Take the one where you are investigating a kid who got stabbed to death by a street thug. The writers seemed to feel like the depressing premise wasn't enough, so they have to tell you about the strain that the hollowborn sister put on the family, how the mother is at her wits end while the father is a drunkard who spends all his time at the whore house, how the (now dead) son was the only light of hope in the mother's life, how the father tried to drown the hollowborn daughter, etc. Then if you tell the truth at the end of the quest you get told about how horrible and soul wrenching the news is for the parents.

Great, thanks, pass the prozac please. The whole thing reminds me of Oscar bait films where the writers think that in order to make things deep and serious they had to make every character's life terrible. Every time I ran into someone's sob story in PoE it felt like the writers were channeling Donald Kaufman and yelling at me, "Hey, isn't that fucked up?"

 

[orcinator]

I still have no idea how people knew i was the "lord of Caed Nua", i didnt get the memo i guess.

Word spread that the ruler has a character portrait.

 

[Lacrymas]

Great, thanks, pass the prozac please. The whole thing reminds me of Oscar bait films where the writers think that in order to make things deep and serious they had to make every character's life terrible. Every time I ran into someone's sob story in PoE it felt like the writers were channeling Donald Kaufman and yelling at me, "Hey, isn't that fucked up?"

It comes out like this because the writing itself is terrible, not the ideas behind it. The pacing is off, it has too many words and repeats itself because of that, and the myriad other problems we've discussed in this thread. It's not about not having positive quests, would something change if the father wasn't a drunkard and didn't try to drown his daughter? Would the game magically become better, or would it still be overwritten, but on the other end of the spectrum? As large a cornucopia as PoE's problems are, being "too depressing" is not one of them.

 

[Sizzle]

I think what almondblight is aiming at, and which I agree with, is that you didn't have to spend so much time on text detailing how the stabbed kid's family has got it tough - all that effort could have been better spent designing that quest in a better way, give it more options, etc.

All they did with that quest was try and hammer home how PoE isn't like BG, but is, in fact, a serious, dark and realistic RPG. Nothing wrong with that, but surely you can present your dark fantasy realism in a better way.

For example, I thought the Skaen Temple quest, while also dark, was better handled. You had a bleak situation, but they didn't waste time going in detail how the poor girl's cat died of animancy influenza when she was 9, but explained the situation, and presented you with a few ways on how to handle it.

 

[Lacrymas]

All they did with that quest was try and hammer home how PoE isn't like BG, but is, in fact, a serious, dark and realistic RPG.

Ironically enough, I take BG1 more seriously than PoE. And I didn't play it when I was a kid, didn't know it even existed, I played it for the first time a few years ago. Just before I joined the Codex actually, that's how I found about the 'Dex, too, I was looking for some information relating to BG1 (or maybe I was looking for a PoE review which hated it as much as I did and stumbled onto Darth Roxor's). So, yeah, I didn't take it more seriously because my kid mind was overwhelmed with it. I don't know why people think BG1 is this light-hearted adventure romp with your childhood friends through Charlie's Chocolate Factory, it's actually pretty cold and detached. Maybe because of Minsc? I hated him the moment he opened his mouth. I guess people only play with a good party, where it IS like a having a gay ol' time with your buddies, being heroes and saving maidens, but with an evil party it's like a completely different game.

 

[Elwro]

Just wanted to say that I found Vogel's comments to be spot on. I really, really wanted to get to know PoE's setting, but the ridiculous, unneeded verbiage made it seem more bland than it probably was in the creators' minds.

 

[Sizzle]

Lacrymas But that's exactly my point - let the characters, quests, and situations show (and not tell) that the world is a grim-dark place.

Also, the reason why I think more people consider BG1 to be somehow lighter, is because it had more humorous content and characters such as Minsc, Xan, Tiax, etc. Some of them were a bit too much, but contrasted with PoE - where they usually defaulted to a sombre tone whenever given the chance - it struck a nice chord between a serious story and some not so serious characters and situations.

 

[Lacrymas]

Lacrymas But that's exactly my point - let the characters, quests, and situations show (and not tell) that the world is a grim-dark place.

Also, the reason why I think more people consider BG1 to be somehow lighter, is because it had more humorous content and characters such as Minsc, Xan, Tiax, etc. Some of them were a bit too much, but contrasted with PoE - where they usually defaulted to a sombre tone whenever given the chance - it struck a nice chord between a serious story and some not so serious characters and situations.

Tiax is a lunatic who is dragged to an insane asylum in BG2, Xan is a nihilistic depressive who thinks existence is futile. They both have more character than most of PoE's companions combined. Minsc is an insufferable idiot who I despise, but that's my problem. There really are no comedic banters or situations with an evil party (maybe neutral, too, but it's hard to justify a playthrough with neutral characters because they are mechanically weak), it's a serious story which doesn't veer off by trying to add comedy for no reason. You aren't a lost lamb trying to find his way, you are on a quest of self-fulfillment and of amassing wealth to take on whatever the world throws at you. Kudos to Bioware for making different parties so distinct from one another, even up to changing the motivations of the PC and the framing of the whole adventure.

 

[pippin]

There really are no comedic banters or situations with an evil party

Edwin?

 

[Lacrymas]

What about Edwin? If you are talking about the Edwina thing, that's in BG2.

 

[Sizzle]

Minsc, Xan, Tiax, arguably even Edwin - all of those characters are more or less crazy. That doesn't alter the fact that their mental disorders were presented in a funny way.

The problem I have with the majority of PoE's characters is that they were deliberately made to be too mundane. An RPG companion shouldn't have to be wacky to be memorable, but there should be something about them that sets them apart from other such characters - some sort of defining heroic trait.

It can be little things. Like how Xan is a moonblade wielder. This doesn't automatically make him ultra-special, but it was a nice little detail that made him stand out.

 

[gaussgunner]

You're not a lord of a castle. You're a foreign bum who squatters in a spooky ruin. You have zero right to rule. You're not noble even if you're allowed to occupy the castle. In fact, it was one of the weakest plot holes in the whole game.

A quest chain added in v3.0 expanded upon that particular omission really well.

I played that version. No wonder that quest felt like busywork. It didn't make Caed Nua feel any less contrived. It just felt like the writers were digging themselves a deeper hole.

You being bossed around by people who should have no reason or right to do so is a very common RPG problem - even in games like BG2: Throne of Bhaal, where you're more powerful epic than many legendary characters there (which is why Elminister confessing even he wouldn't try to take you on now felt so very pleasing and player ego-strokey :D ).

Aye, the local authorities, essentially, should be the only ones giving you orders. Even then, if the dialogue choices leave you no option to disobey, that's just lazy scripting.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sizzle, I've been saying that the companions are too normal and not special enough since I joined the Codex lol. This goes for a lot of other games, too, not only PoE. Older Bioware do these things better, BG1 characters are full of ...character, even if they don't interject much. I think in BG2 they are too talkative, but that's a different issue. Even DA:O does this better, you have a master spy (Leliana), a wood witch raised by arguably the most powerful entity in the story (Morrigan), a reanimated golem (Shale), the only other living grey warden in the area (Alistair), an accomplished assassin (Zevran), the antagonist for most of the game (Loghain), and the other 3 people who aren't special, maybe Sten if you argue that he's the only qunari in the game and Wynne if you argue that she's next in line for head-mage, but I don't count them. Even ME2's entire premise is collecting people who are skillful and unique. In PoE you stumble across characters who have nothing to do with you or your mission, the only special/interesting people are Durance, GM and The Devil of Caroc (in the sense that she's a golem). Eder, who is the most popular character, is a normal man who gets dragged into your quest for no reason.

Obsidian are better than this, however, in Kotor 2 you have a cynical old woman who we all know and love, a tortured slave, the only different Handmaiden, a murderer of Jedi, the leader of the Mandalorians, the tech specialist who arguably started the whole mess (by designing and activating the Mass Shadow Generator), an angry wookie twisting what it means to be a wookie, a robot who is pretending to be human, a robot who knows more about what is going on than it lets on and ...Mical and Mira. It feels like most of PoE's companions were supposed to be stand-ins for literally their whole cultures, which makes them stereotypical in the context of the story, even stereotypical in general. This is opposed to their usefulness to the main character and story, they feel like background characters elevated to main ones for no reason. I truly don't know what happened, where did the originality and creativity go? I refuse to believe they did this on purpose to be like BG1, but failing to be such or as good.

 

[Sizzle]

You're not a lord of a castle. You're a foreign bum who squatters in a spooky ruin. You have zero right to rule. You're not noble even if you're allowed to occupy the castle. In fact, it was one of the weakest plot holes in the whole game.

A quest chain added in v3.0 expanded upon that particular omission really well.

I played that version. No wonder that quest felt like busywork. It didn't make Caed Nua feel any less contrived. It just felt like the writers were digging themselves a deeper hole.

The problem with Caed Nua was that it was always just an obligatory Stretch Goal addition without much story integration. This quest tried to fix it - at least a little bit - by adding a noble who contested your rule. I thought it was a nice addition (even though it didn't redeem the entire Keep), with a good battle at the end.

Lacrymas I'd also add Zahua to the "special" pile. A drug-taking former Chieftain and believer in suffering as the means to enlightenment. Possibly also Hiravias - exiled druid with a unique shapeshift.

I liked some of the normal companions - namely, Eder and Sagani - but they should be the exception to the rule, not the standard. Adventuring should attract powerful and unique people, not random history majors such as Kana Rua.

 

[almondblight]

It comes out like this because the writing itself is terrible, not the ideas behind it. The pacing is off, it has too many words and repeats itself because of that, and the myriad other problems we've discussed in this thread. It's not about not having positive quests, would something change if the father wasn't a drunkard and didn't try to drown his daughter? Would the game magically become better, or would it still be overwritten, but on the other end of the spectrum? As large a cornucopia as PoE's problems are, being "too depressing" is not one of them.

I disagree. I wouldn't call it the worst problem in the game (and I didn't), but it is one of the reasons why I enjoyed Twin Elms more than Defiance Bay. I'd rather talk to white elves telling me about their plan to break through the barrier and enter the entropy realm than some random family tell me how much their life sucks and how much their life will continue to suck no matter what I do. Not to mention that the former is actually relevant to what I'm doing.

Of course, this ends up being a matter of personal preference. You might not mind having every random stranger treat you like their personal emotional garbage bin, but it seems at least a good amount of people dislike this. Look at the complaints about "bioware companions" - it's not just that they talk to much, but that they treat you like a therapist who's supposed to solve their issues. When mediocre writers go into serious drama and emotional engagement mode, the result usually ends up magnifying their flaws.

Think of some of your favorite indie RPGs. Do you think the writing would be as enjoyable if they focused on emotional engagement and domestic strife?