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Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

almondblight

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I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city - a tribal feud over who killed a great beast, a superstitious Orlan who thinks that eating birds will allow him to sing like one, sacrificing an infant to empower an aging chieftain, etc. To say nothing of the Gods' quests.

Yeah. They also felt more like fun fantasy quests, where the rest of PoE had a lot of depressing social worker quests - you know, helped battered wife leave husband, help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins, find missing kid, help woman reconcile with her mother, etc., with fairly dreary outcomes (hey, maybe you helped this person a little but their life is still screwed).
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Yeah. They also felt more like fun fantasy quests, where the rest of PoE had a lot of depressing social worker quests - you know, helped battered wife leave husband, help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins, find missing kid, help woman reconcile with her mother, etc., with fairly dreary outcomes (hey, maybe you helped this person a little but their life is still screwed).

What quest is that?
 

Rivmusique

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yeah. They also felt more like fun fantasy quests, where the rest of PoE had a lot of depressing social worker quests - you know, helped battered wife leave husband, help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins, find missing kid, help woman reconcile with her mother, etc., with fairly dreary outcomes (hey, maybe you helped this person a little but their life is still screwed).

What quest is that?

The Banshee Lighthouse, I think. It's one of the ways to solve it. Can just bash the ghost away, of course.
 

Sizzle

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Messages
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I primarily liked the TE quests because they were better integrated and fitting to that city - a tribal feud over who killed a great beast, a superstitious Orlan who thinks that eating birds will allow him to sing like one, sacrificing an infant to empower an aging chieftain, etc. To say nothing of the Gods' quests.

Yeah. They also felt more like fun fantasy quests, where the rest of PoE had a lot of depressing social worker quests - you know, helped battered wife leave husband, help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins, find missing kid, help woman reconcile with her mother, etc., with fairly dreary outcomes (hey, maybe you helped this person a little but their life is still screwed).

That never occurred to me, good point.

They took it a much-needed step forward in TWM:

- Something's amiss in the mine. Oh, no, there's an entire ilitdid vithrack colony underneath, taken over by a malevolent fungus!

- An evil Paladin deliberately misinterpreted my drunk words, and now wants to kill off an entire family for the lulz! Please stop him!

- You chance upon a broken helmet that houses the spirit of a barbarian and must help him gather the other pieces so he can move on.

- An injured hunter hires you to take down a particularly large and vicious wolf. The wolf turns out to be a cursed werewolf!

And these are just the side-quests, the TWM main questlines and major side content (the Archmages) are also appropriately fun fantasy ones that wouldn't feel out of place in BG or IWD.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
Lol, no. "Fun fantasy quests" is not what Obsidian is about and I don't play their games for that. They should avoid fantasy tropes (or deconstruct them, if they are capable of that anymore) like the plague. Let alone "fun" ones.
 
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Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
There's a big difference between "fun and light and fluffy" fantasy quests, and "dreary, depressing quests that try to be mature" like the ones that plagued the base game.

TWM quests may be lighter in tone, but that doesn't mean they are whimsical and cutesy - just that they are not deliberately bleak in some ham-fisted attempt at realism.

Balance is the key here, but all in all, I prefer the quests - how they're structured, written - from Twin Elms and TWM, to the majority of ones from Defiance Bay and Acts I-II.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
You have diarrhea. Some natives attack your caravan. Weird things happen. The two characters who you might have been forming some sort of bond through adversity with die accidentally/incidentally. Now you are left to wonder around in some generic fantasy world, reading a bunch of flavor text and trying to figure out what the plot is.
Nice, you just summed up everything wrong with the game in a few short sentences. You do not need an editor.
That was some shit, killing your first two companions, who actually had potential. No. You can't have them. You can only have Weak Elf, Native Midget Woman, her pet wolf, Token Negro, Grieving Mother, Nasty Druid Dude, and like 10 other totally forgettable companions who give you pointless sidequests and add basically nothing of interest to the story or gameplay.

I could make it better:

You have diarrhea. Some natives attack your caravan. You die. EDIT: In the rain.
Let me help:
Code:
if(gameAllowsCustomParty) {
  createCustomParty();
} else {
  sufferCompanions();
}
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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No "fun fantasy quests" thank you. Plenty of JRPGS do that, I think anyone who prefers that sort of experience has more than enough games to play. D:OS and upcoming D:OS2 as well.

That never occurred to me, good point.

They took it a much-needed step forward in TWM:

- Something's amiss in the mine. Oh, no, there's an entire ilitdid vithrack colony underneath, taken over by a malevolent fungus!

- An evil Paladin deliberately misinterpreted my drunk words, and now wants to kill off an entire family for the lulz! Please stop him!

- You chance upon a broken helmet that houses the spirit of a barbarian and must help him gather the other pieces so he can move on.

- An injured hunter hires you to take down a particularly large and vicious wolf. The wolf turns out to be a cursed werewolf!

And these are just the side-quests, the TWM main questlines and major side content (the Archmages) are also appropriately fun fantasy ones that wouldn't feel out of place in BG or IWD.

This is just how you want to represent the quests. Not that WM quest design wasn't better than base game but that was because of how loose form they were and how you could approach them. Like that quest about finding the dwarf's amulet and armour, I did that quest like 3 times and I still have no idea how many triggers there is for it, nor do I know how many ways you can actually solve it. I even looked it up on the internet later and didn't have all possible solutions.

Here is how you can represent base quests similarly:

- A guy tells you a bear attacked his friend, you look for the cave and find the spirit of his slain friend and witness his betrayal!

- You get hired to check on a light house and find it has been haunted, you learn the spectre that haunts it has been sorrowful about past events which you can find a resolution to!

Similarly you can do the "social worker" treatment to same to white march quests:

Reconcile man and his son, try to arbitrate a bad deal a guy made with a paladin, fix up the mine, literally escort a tax official.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Playing "social worker" (i.e. - getting shit done for people who can't/don't want to do it themselves) is the basis of most RPGs.

But the difference I'm talking about is tone and overall quality. Let's take a quest almondblight mentioned, the "help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins" one.

In this mundane (it does flesh out the effects of the Hollowborn Crisis, but not in a very interesting way) fetch quest, you have two possible options - tell the woman the truth about the "cure", or let her believe it's the real deal. None of these options are especially satisfactory - it's realistic, yes, but you haven't really solved her problem, you've just played a delivery man, and either lied to her, or told her to suck it up.

Now, having depressing quests like this isn't that big of a problem in itself - after all, Raedric's Hold is a pretty bleak place, but thanks to a variety of options, it's one of the better areas in the (base) game - but having a quest that's both pretty dull, sad, and has you playing the role of a fed-ex employee who doubles as a bearer of bad news, isn't really the type of quest the game should have more of.

By contrast, TWM has quests that usually also provide a certain darker, more realistic edge to typical fantasy tasks, but they also give you a greater opportunity to play the hero (as in - a person who solves problems).
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
Well, that quest with the prenatal vitamins does have you kill some mushroom people/things, so it's not ONLY a delivery service. It also isn't very interesting and repeats information that we already know - that the Hollowborn can't be cured/averted. It's not about playing a hero or not, I usually don't and try to go for a more realistically selfish approach because I'm tired of playing the goody two-shoes, f.e. in Kotor 2 my last playthrough was with a dark side character, but sparing the masters. There isn't any point to their slaughter apart from your character being either a psycho or ridiculously stupid and vindictive. The game gave me dark side points because I refused to be trodden on and used as a problem solving machine to be discarded when of no use anymore, but I digress. Obsidian should give us meaningful quests that don't repeat things we already know and a variety of ways to go about doing them, like being able to refuse to be treated like a servant even though our character is incredibly powerful, lord of a castle and owner of land. Tyranny also had this problem, where nobody was respecting the character's authority, which is not only a plot hole, but incredibly annoying.

In BG1 it worked, because you were literally nobody with no possessions or gold, so you were logically forced to do some demeaning and manual jobs (interestingly enough, there weren't that many of them). I hope PoE2 does quest structure better, have the story/setting context in mind (i.e. no prenatal vitamins for something everyone knows is futile) and at least one of the factions allowing you to have a better social standing, with people respecting your position, power and wealth, i.e. not sending you on menial tasks.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
Playing "social worker" (i.e. - getting shit done for people who can't/don't want to do it themselves) is the basis of most RPGs.

But the difference I'm talking about is tone and overall quality. Let's take a quest almondblight mentioned, the "help poor pregnant woman get prenatal vitamins" one.

In this mundane (it does flesh out the effects of the Hollowborn Crisis, but not in a very interesting way) fetch quest, you have two possible options - tell the woman the truth about the "cure", or let her believe it's the real deal. None of these options are especially satisfactory - it's realistic, yes, but you haven't really solved her problem, you've just played a delivery man, and either lied to her, or told her to suck it up.

Now, having depressing quests like this isn't that big of a problem in itself - after all, Raedric's Hold is a pretty bleak place, but thanks to a variety of options, it's one of the better areas in the (base) game - but having a quest that's both pretty dull, sad, and has you playing the role of a fed-ex employee who doubles as a bearer of bad news, isn't really the type of quest the game should have more of.

By contrast, TWM has quests that usually also provide a certain darker, more realistic edge to typical fantasy tasks, but they also give you a greater opportunity to play the hero (as in - a person who solves problems).

Personally I don't like any quests in the Gilded Vale, Eothas temple was okay and sufficiently engaging with the parts of memories scattered around the temple and finding a way to open the gate with bells (which is interesting because that scattered memories thing is not used again until WM), Raedric quest is very well designed of course. I felt Gilded Vale was worst part of the game anyhow and felt very generic, find a blacksmith's supplies, really?

I was mainly talking about the fact you can represent a quest making it sound more or less interesting despite the reality of it being otherwise if you try that. Help woman reconcile with her Mother for the lighthouse quest, really?

Well, that quest with the prenatal vitamins does have you kill some mushroom people/things, so it's not ONLY a delivery service. It also isn't very interesting and repeats information that we already know - that the Hollowborn can't be cured/averted. It's not about playing a hero or not, I usually don't and try to go for a more realistically selfish approach because I'm tired of playing the goody two-shoes, f.e. in Kotor 2 my last playthrough was with a dark side character, but sparing the masters. There isn't any point to their slaughter apart from your character being either a psycho or ridiculously stupid and vindictive. The game gave me dark side points because I refused to be trodden on and used as a problem solving machine to be discarded when of no use anymore, but I digress. Obsidian should give us meaningful quests that don't repeat things we already know and a variety of ways to go about doing them, like being able to refuse to be treated like a servant even though our character is incredibly powerful, lord of a castle and owner of land. Tyranny also had this problem, where nobody was respecting the character's authority, which is not only a plot hole, but incredibly annoying.

In BG1 it worked, because you were literally nobody with no possessions or gold, so you were logically forced to do some demeaning and manual jobs (interestingly enough, there weren't that many of them). I hope PoE2 does quest structure better, have the story/setting context in mind (i.e. no prenatal vitamins for something everyone knows is futile) and at least one of the factions allowing you to have a better social standing, with people respecting your position, power and wealth, i.e. not sending you on menial tasks.

I agree on the whole and I hope that's what they will follow through in Deadfire. However PoE1 doesn't have any quests that gives you no option but being a servant I think? Because you can just straight up murder people in a lot of them or assert the reality that you could in dialogue options. Then again I always played high resolve character which these dialogue options often depend on I think.
 

Lacrymas

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Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
I agree on the whole and I hope that's what they will follow through in Deadfire. However PoE1 doesn't have any quests that gives you no option but being a servant I think? Because you can just straight up murder people in a lot of them or assert the reality that you could in dialogue options. Then again I always played high resolve character which these dialogue options often depend on I think.

Most of the quests in the game are you doing menial tasks for random people, you might not be treated as a servant, but you are expected to act like one. It doesn't matter that you can sneer at them and say "I'm not your servant", when the quest depends on you being one anyway. The prenatal vitamins one is a good example, even if at that point you are still nobody. I distinctly remember a quest where you had to deliver a letter to someone, isn't it the same woman trying to find her sister in DB? Also, killing people =/= not being a servant. You are a rebellious servant in that case because you are violently opposing your "master".
 

FreeKaner

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I agree on the whole and I hope that's what they will follow through in Deadfire. However PoE1 doesn't have any quests that gives you no option but being a servant I think? Because you can just straight up murder people in a lot of them or assert the reality that you could in dialogue options. Then again I always played high resolve character which these dialogue options often depend on I think.

Most of the quests in the game are you doing menial tasks for random people, you might not be treated as a servant, but you are expected to act like one. It doesn't matter that you can sneer at them and say "I'm not your servant", when the quest depends on you being one anyway. The prenatal vitamins one is a good example, even if at that point you are still nobody. I distinctly remember a quest where you had to deliver a letter to someone, isn't it the same woman trying to find her sister in DB? Also, killing people =/= not being a servant. You are a rebellious servant in that case because you are violently opposing your "master".

You deliver letter of the Doemenel guy, you don't need to though, you can just come across the thieves and kill them, if you read the letter you don't need to deliver.

At one point it just becomes sort of "Don't tell me what to do", yes people request you to do stuff and you do stuff if you choose so, there are no quests where you are a servant that has no other options I can remember of. I mean with the prenatal vitamins you need to go out of your way to ask to help her, I don't think that's exactly a "servant" aspect. Another I can remember which is a menial task is the wife of that drug seller in DB, you have to go out of your way to ask her what it's about then she will request that you give her ring to him, which you can promptly refuse. Later you can go to guy's house anyway, find him tied up, he can ask you to talk to his wife, you can also refuse, so you get quest done without doing anything for anyone. Similarly with pregnant kidnapped girl in Dryford, there are many ways you can come across her then either just don't do anything about it and let Skaven cultists proceed, stop them and get reward from the noble or just punish the noble for tormenting his niece. Another menial task is getting the necklace from the prostitute for the Glafathan guy in DB, which you can get, not after talking with prostitute, get and tell the guy to fuck off and other plenty of options. I can't think of many games that gives you so many options to do "menial tasks" without the "servant" aspect of it. I don't see how else this could be presented unless you are opposed to idea of doing things for people in general.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
I can't think of many games that gives you so many options to do "menial tasks" without the "servant" aspect of it. I don't see how else this could be presented unless you are opposed to idea of doing things for people in general.

Not giving us menial tasks in general. Getting a necklace from the prostitute, seriously? FedExing a ring lol? The pregnant kidnapped girl is not a menial task however, because they won't be able to do it on their own and it's dangerous, something that requires your skills in particular. Just less servile quests in general, there is literally no reason for us to carry a necklace around for pocket change, even if you refuse it's still being offered as a realistic use of your time which is ridiculous. We are a LORD OF A CASTLE, not their friends or post office, there is no universe in which asking a noble to FedEx a ring to someone is appropriate or realistic.
 

FreeKaner

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I can't think of many games that gives you so many options to do "menial tasks" without the "servant" aspect of it. I don't see how else this could be presented unless you are opposed to idea of doing things for people in general.

Not giving us menial tasks in general. Getting a necklace from the prostitute, seriously? FedExing a ring lol? The pregnant kidnapped girl is not a menial task however, because they won't be able to do it on their own and it's dangerous, something that requires your skills in particular. Just less servile quests in general, there is literally no reason for us to carry a necklace around for pocket change, even if you refuse it's still being offered as a realistic use of your time which is ridiculous. We are a LORD OF A CASTLE, not their friends or post office, there is no universe in which asking a noble to FedEx a ring to someone is appropriate or realistic.

Well the ring case leads to a happenstance with a Wizard drug dealer ring leader, it's kind of interesting. The getting necklace from prostitute is much more bland but still options are there. Also not everyone played as a noble I think, I mean what if I am playing as a Goldpact Paladin with mercenary background, doing contracts in exchange for currency is part of their ideology. You don't have to do them and game gives you creative options to tell them off. Also if you are playing as a more helpful benevolent type of character I guess? The tasks are rather easy to do and you can have a lot of them around if writers think them up without much effort, more content is good in my opinion.
 
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Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
Well the ring case leads to a happenstance with a Wizard drug dealer ring leader, it's kind of interesting. The getting necklace from prostitute is much more bland but still options are there. Also not everyone played as a noble I think, I mean what if I am playing as a Goldpact Paladin with mercenary background, doing contracts in exchange for currency is part of their ideology. You don't have to do them and game gives you creative options to tell them off.

We don't know where the ring quest will lead, so it's a moot point. Random people also don't know you are a Goldpact paladin with a mercenary background, but they SHOULD know that you are the new owner of Caed Nua or, failing that, see that you are an adventuring party armed to the teeth. I suppose it's fine if you have to specifically offer to help them, as per your Goldpact-y dispositions.
 

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