Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

[Knut]

well you need to experiment and reinvent yourself, originality (and often associated quality) do not come from mindless repetitions of formula and nobody can be expected to care anymore when doing the same thing for umpteenth time. of course, if you depend financially on it, tough shit. added pressure increases the odds you will fuck it up if you're too ballsy.

even so, vogel could update his art a bit. i seriously doubt anyone would take serious offense.

 

[Explorerbc]

Technically, I don't think he is saying something wrong. Making an older game available to newer audiences is ok, that's how I got to play Avernum after all.

I wouldn't buy a remade game I've played before though, especially if it originally released only 2-3 years ago like those next-gen examples he refers to. But I guess if they make money with those, there is a demand so good for them.

The movie and game industries have been recycling content for some time now. Obviously if everybody started doing only remakes it would be pretty shitty, but there always be innovators to shine through so I don't worry much about it.

As for the price, I don't believe his fan base is as hardcore and dedicated as he thinks. It reminds me of when he used to say steam won't get him sales, because the niche gamers already buy from his site. Then he opens up to a new audience with gaben, bundles, tablets, Biowarian writing, and at the same time thinks they will behave like the guys who played his games 15 years ago. As a part of that new audience, I am looking forward to the game but will probably wait for a sale.

 

[Matalarata]

Each time I try to replay Geneforge 1 or 2 I find an inane wall of text by JV that manages to kill all the joy

(true story)

 

[felipepepe]

I consider Geneforge 1 to be a great game.

Not sure if I want or don't want him to remake it... the graphics are good enough, and more charming than the ones he uses today.

 

[Raghar]

I actually wonder what's worse. Vogel, who is keeping to make remakes, or Wardell who is severally lacking in game design in nearly every game. (and in fact GalCiv also feels like remake)

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It's a shame it doesn't work correctly on Wine unlike later Geneforge games. Maybe if he'd remake it on decent level, I could finally play it.

 

[Gozma]

Stop reusing low res assets in higher res by zooming out further you fuck, my goddamn eyes

 

[Mastermind]

I don't even know if Vogel is being ironic or not anymore. I guess he hasn't gone full retard like Pierre, though.

Pierre is too retarded to be genuinely retarded. More likely that he's just batshit crazy.

 

[laclongquan]

He made good point actually. The most common major problem of Western game developers is always chasing the rainbows "newer thing". They never stop to redo the old good thing. The good is enemy of the new, so to speak.

Case in point: Fallout. F1 is okay. F2 is great. But do they expand it? No, they just have to jump to Fallout Tactics and Fallout Brotherhood. FT is good, dont get me wrong. Great, even, successor to Jagged Alliance 2. But the fact FT is not F2 successor make fanbois jump up and down frothing at the mouth. I remember the phenomemnon "pink dreathclaws!!!!". In a JA2-successor game who give a fuck about pink deathclaws? What's wrong with making a proper game set after F2 one or two decades? And it has to wait until that atrocity of Fallout 3 by Bethesda.

Second case in point: Why the fuck do they not make a proper Jagged Alliance 3 right after 2? Keep all the aspect of 2, do a proper bugfix, and increase the quest system complexity a bit. Like the famous counterattacks that never materialize.

Anytime developers do sequel that is not chasing the new thing, fans whine "milking the franchise". :shake head:

It's the fault shared equally between developers, publishers, and fans.

 

[MRY]

What troubles me about this mentality (well, among many things) is that if you're a talented enough person to make Exile, etc., you probably could get yourself a low-six-figure / high-five-figure job with benefits and more or less reasonable hours. You could probably do just so-so work at that job and not get fired, though you might never advance, perhaps it would be the kind of job with little room for advancement anyway. Such a job would offer stability, a decent enough social outlet, and so forth. In short, it seems like a somewhat better version of a life that consists of churning your old IP for a low six-figure income (without benefits), which is what Jeff used to say he made.

It seems to me the reason to pursue a creative passion is to be creative and indulge a passion; if it is neither creative nor passionate, then what's the point? I suppose you get more adulation than you would as an IT guy for a mid-sized company. But, even to someone as desperate for adulation as I am, that doesn't seem like a great reason.

I'm not saying the guy should be making experimental games. I'm just saying he should indulge the same passion and creativity that yielded Exile and Geneforge and Nethergate!

 

[Night Goat]

I consider Geneforge 1 to be a great game.

Not sure if I want or don't want him to remake it... the graphics are good enough, and more charming than the ones he uses today.

This interface gave me eye cancer.

 

[Jaesun]

Joined: May 6, 2013

 

[laclongquan]

Not really~

If that is the typical artwork of G1, then I dont consider it a failing.

Considering some shitheads around here like Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress, it's especially not a failing.

 

[Gozma]

This interface gave me eye cancer.

GF1 is actually a more playable UI than the Avernum remake or GF5 because the tiles are a reasonable size, and those are far better than GF4/Avernum 4 or 5 because such a tiny % of the UI in those is the viewport for the actual play area (GF5/Avernum 6 at least use widescreen aspect ratio, though). He's done a much better job of making the UI look pretty in the recent stuff than making it more human-friendly.

 

[Night Goat]

Joined: May 6, 2013

I've been playing Spiderweb games since 1995, so I don't see what my join date has to do with anything.

 

[hakuroshi]

Joined: May 6, 2013

Though admittedly Vogel's early isometrics - Avernum and Geneforge - looked much worse then tiled Exile.

 

[DosBuster]

To be fair, this is why you stick games behind a company name that can switch designers, not a single person.

 

[mondblut]

One of the things I've always hated about our art form is how it discards its classics as technology moves on.

Might be the wisest words he said.

...preserving the stuff that made people love it in the first place.

Characters 5 and 6 and the non-retarded spellcasting in Exile beg to disagree.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I think this was inevitable, regardless of the state of the industry. Avadon sold well on steam because, within the context of steam, it was completely new. But once every Spiderweb game came to steam, the newness wore off. Likewise, the humblebundle completely de-valued Spiderweb games. Which is a HUGE problem given that they all look pretty similar due to the fact that they re-use the same assets over and over. So what motivation does someone have to buy a new Spiderweb game, when they still have a backlog of 15, huge, and very similar looking games yet to play that they got for 3 dollars in a humble bundle? Even if they missed the humblebundle, the mere fact that someone might own 1 Spiderweb game probably doesn't motivate them very much to buy newer ones that look, on the surface, to be very similar.

I think he'd get a bigger pay off if he spent some actual money and redesigned the look of his new games, giving each series its own art style, rather than being such a tight ass in the graphics department.

That said, I'm probably the biggest, unabashed, Spiderweb fanboy on these forums. So I'd actually pay way more than 20 dollars for a new game, and with that in mind, I don't think this is a bad strategy. I think it all just depends on how many of Spiderweb's core base of rabid fans are left post Steam, GOG, and Avadon.

He made good point actually. The most common major problem of Western game developers is always chasing the rainbows "newer thing". They never stop to redo the old good thing. The good is enemy of the new, so to speak.

This is true. Vogel very much learned to make games by just making games at a consistent rate, rather than spending tons of time developing the one perfect game. So many indies aim waaaay to high and try to develop the perfect, most ambitious, game of their dreams right out of the gate, and choke. But Spiderweb games have always been about developing formulas, and getting better at them over time. I don't think that applies to the Avernums necessarily (which are pretty spotty quality wise later in the series' run), but I do think the Geneforges progressively get better as they go along.

 

[Sitra Achara]

A large part of my professional life now is acting as curator for the things I made when I was young. I spend my time trying to be respectful to the work of my younger self, bringing it into the modern day while preserving the stuff that made people love it in the first place.

I endorse this message. Please Vogel, respect your younger self: http://www.armory.com/~crisper/Scorch/intro.html

 

[V_K]

He made good point actually. The most common major problem of Western game developers is always chasing the rainbows "newer thing". They never stop to redo the old good thing. The good is enemy of the new, so to speak.

Well, look at King's Bounty guys who essentially released the same game for the fourth (or is it fifth?) time. Their first installment received some GOTY awards, but does anyone even care about the last?

 

[Amasius]

Vogel is in business for longer than almost anyone else, Indie or big game developer, because he is awoiding risks and it works. I'd rather see him making remakes than go out of business. Sure, we could hope for more innovation but how many of you fuckers have played his most innovative game (Nethergate)? As far as I know Nethergate was his least successful game.

 

[Night Goat]

I still need to play that one sometime. How is it more innovative than Geneforge?

 

[J_C]

Joined: May 6, 2013

It really is an awful looking UI. Green slime everywhere.

 

[laclongquan]

He made good point actually. The most common major problem of Western game developers is always chasing the rainbows "newer thing". They never stop to redo the old good thing. The good is enemy of the new, so to speak.

Well, look at King's Bounty guys who essentially released the same game for the fourth (or is it fifth?) time. Their first installment received some GOTY awards, but does anyone even care about the last?

His games're sold, still, arent they? Tehre's still market for it. Russian market seem not to be infected by that sentimentality "chasing the newest young thang on the block" that is loudly proclaimed from players to makers in the West.