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Jeff Vogel: 22 games in 22 years, mostly from his basement

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
my condolences :salute:
 

SwiftCrack

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Oct 3, 2012
Messages
1,836
Please don't say you think Windows XP is still the best thing since sliced bread, as far as Windows versions go.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Please don't say you think Windows XP is still the best thing since sliced bread, as far as Windows versions go.

I'm guessing that was directed to me?

Windows 7 home premium isn't included in the instructions for how to run Xp mode posted on the previous page. I've tried searching the interwebs multiple times and have yet to find a reasonable way to do it.

I'll just have to get my old do machine from storage to play all the older games I have.
 

Jack Dandy

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
3,039
Location
Israel
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Arrrgh, blazes. In Exile 2-3, is there a way to adjust the aiming of spells\missiles with keyboard instead of mouse?
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
11,079
So I've been playing Avernum "Enhanced Popamole Edition" and I'm having a pretty good time. But, man, considering that this is like the 3rd iteration of Exile, it's not that impressive. Vogel obviously has zero sense when it comes to visuals and sound. He really needs to up his game there if he wants to compete with today's indie kickstarter crpg market, it's like he grabbed random pieces of art to stitch the game together and most of the sound effects are down right atrocious. Loot and looting mechanics are crap and 4 party members is pretty limiting. Nevertheless, I like it. Surprisingly decent writing, well designed exploration, big game world filled with secrets, simple -but challenging- TB combat.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
So I've been playing Avernum "Enhanced Popamole Edition" and I'm having a pretty good time. But, man, considering that this is like the 3rd iteration of Exile, it's not that impressive. Vogel obviously has zero sense when it comes to visuals and sound. He really needs to up his game there if he wants to compete with today's indie kickstarter crpg market, it's like he grabbed random pieces of art to stitch the game together and most of the sound effects are down right atrocious. Loot and looting mechanics are crap and 4 party members is pretty limiting. Nevertheless, I like it. Surprisingly decent writing, well designed exploration, big game world filled with secrets, simple -but challenging- TB combat.

Honestly Vogel is making the closest thing to 80s and 90s RPGs out there right now. If he'd just make a game like the Exile series with less ugly visuals (doesn't have to be fancy even, just get rid of the hideous portraits, and get the menu graphics to where it doesn't clash with the rest of the game) and maybe a couple more tactical options in combat (think GURPs or 3.5e DND), he'd be our god.

He's even a bit curmudgeonly like so many Codex favorites... certainly no Cleve, but maybe like a VD with better writing skills. If only he'd pander to us more in terms of game development...
 

pippin

Guest
To be fair, I don't really mind the lo-fi quality of the game's aesthetics. If anything, they are indeed more retro than any cheap indie crap out there. The only problem I've had is with looting, which is not intuitive enough (especially when you can't really tell items from crap lying on the floor). Other than that, the general lack of music actually is kinda relaxing in an odd manner. It helps with the immersion, imo. And during combat, tactics and abilities actually matter. It's like the Avernum games are *gasp* actual rpgs!
 

Mustawd

Guest
To be fair, I don't really mind the lo-fi quality of the game's aesthetics. If anything, they are indeed more retro than any cheap indie crap out there. The only problem I've had is with looting, which is not intuitive enough (especially when you can't really tell items from crap lying on the floor). Other than that, the general lack of music actually is kinda relaxing in an odd manner. It helps with the immersion, imo. And during combat, tactics and abilities actually matter. It's like the Avernum games are *gasp* actual rpgs!

I usually just put spotify on play some fantasy movies/rpg games while playing Avernum (no music either).
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014
To be fair, I don't really mind the lo-fi quality of the game's aesthetics. If anything, they are indeed more retro than any cheap indie crap out there. The only problem I've had is with looting, which is not intuitive enough (especially when you can't really tell items from crap lying on the floor). Other than that, the general lack of music actually is kinda relaxing in an odd manner. It helps with the immersion, imo. And during combat, tactics and abilities actually matter. It's like the Avernum games are *gasp* actual rpgs!
The only ability that matters is your best damage spell, which you'll have all your party members spamming round after round as you slowly whittle down the enemies' HP.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
To be fair, I don't really mind the lo-fi quality of the game's aesthetics. If anything, they are indeed more retro than any cheap indie crap out there. The only problem I've had is with looting, which is not intuitive enough (especially when you can't really tell items from crap lying on the floor). Other than that, the general lack of music actually is kinda relaxing in an odd manner. It helps with the immersion, imo. And during combat, tactics and abilities actually matter. It's like the Avernum games are *gasp* actual rpgs!
The only ability that matters is your best damage spell, which you'll have all your party members spamming round after round as you slowly whittle down the enemies' HP.

Lol, I remember in the old Usenet days people wrote about playing one of rhe Exiles will a single character who focused on magic and simply spammed splash damage spells and summons. Seems to be an issue with a lot of old skool TB tactical games.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Lol, I remember in the old Usenet days people wrote about playing one of rhe Exiles will a single character who focused on magic and simply spammed splash damage spells and summons. Seems to be an issue with a lot of old skool TB tactical games.
There is strong evidence that a lot of RPG players like the illusion of challenge through arcane character systems than actual challenge in gameplay.
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
There is strong evidence that a lot of RPG players like the illusion of challenge through arcane character systems than actual challenge in gameplay.
:prosper: there are so many wrong things with that statement.

First of all, these games usually have more than just "arcane" character systems. People would know that if they'd stop ragequitting their games after the first random encounter wipes their party or if they would just play the game without alt-tabbing to a walktrough every 5 minutes. Actual tactics in combat, actual cool exploration of the overworld, actually dangerous maze-like dungeons, actually cool and inventive puzzles, even some really good storytelling or writing in some gamess. You just need patience and a bit of dedication to reach those part.
Imagine if some asshole comes in here and tells us Fallout is a shitty game because he can't get past the rats and he made a full diplo character. Or take the walktrough Avellone did for Arcanum, that makes the game look extremely stupid when it's just him that's really stupid.

Second, just because there are optimal builds or spells/abilities that can be spammed to victory, doesn't mean we should just cut everything else and "focus on the essential". It just mean there's a bigger pool of character options, including some that are vastly overpowered. What you assholes forgot to mention is that you can also play the game to completion with fighters, priests, archers or even hybrid builds. Especially on lower difficulty setting.

It's the same as choosing to ironman through a game or savescum. It should be all left to the player to discover how much he wants to dedicate his time into the game and how much he wants to experiment with the character systems. That's why old RPGs are excellent for replayability, because you have all these options in how to pursue your party development in the game.

I wouldn't mind the Bioware/Bethesda school of system/mechanics design, if by removing the "fluff" it would result in actually tighter and more challenging gameplay. But IT NEVER EVER DOES. What you get instead is an easy-as-fuck game, with less options and more boring in general, which will never be replayable once you trudge through the main story.


More options in an RPG should be mandatory, even if all the options don't lead to something productive. That can be fixed in the eventual sequels, where you can design the game better around the system you've built in the first one. Of course, I'm not necessairly advocating the use of 5 skills which are just lockpicking in disguise or silly stuff like that, but I'd rather have those than no lockpicking at all or some stupid minigame.
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
Because you've put a lot of bullshit in your statement.

I was also replying to the idea said previously that you just have to spam certain abilities in Exile/Arcanum and you've "solved it".
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Because you've put a lot of bullshit in your statement.

I was also replying to the idea said previously that you just have to spam certain abilities in Exile/Arcanum and you've "solved it".
I don't think that previous statement was me. I never even played an Exile game longer than it took me to confirm it was working.
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
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The problem is that the games are full of trash combat with damage sponges. You'll be spamming the spells that kill the enemies the fastest, and even then it takes forfuckingever. Then you walk into the next room and have to do it all over again.
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
I don't think that previous statement was me. I never even played an Exile game longer than it took me to confirm it was working.
Talking about things without experiencing them first-hand seems to be your shtick :M
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
The most enjoyable part is the encounter system while dungeoneering. There are quite a few challenging and enjoyable fights there and your characters placement actually matters, not to mention that you try also to conserve energy because apart from potions there's no other way to replenish it in dungeons. Winning some of those fights felt p.good. Overland combat is more basic and more of a brawl usually.

I'm really enjoying this. Vogel may have been accused of remaking the same game, but the fact that this huge and well made crpg is the work of one man, is very impressive. And hey, I'm also starting to encounter some actual story/quest C&C, things are getting even more interesting.
 
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MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
The most enjoyable part is the encounter system while dungeoneering. There are quite a few challenging and enjoyable fights there and your characters placement actually matters, not to mention that you try also to conserve energy because apart from potions there's no other way to replenish it in dungeons. Winning some of those fights felt p.good. Overland combat is more basic and more of a brawl usually.

I'm really enjoying this. Vogel may have been accused of remaking the same game, but the fact that this huge and well made crpg is the work of one man, is very impressive. And hey, I'm also starting to encounter some actual story/quest C&C, things are getting even more interesting.

Don't get me wrong bros, I am actually intrrested in the latest Iteration of Avernum. If it has the features of the old games plus better assets and combat, that sounds pretty Damn good to me especially since I never played the others past the shareware demo and the plot would be fresh. The thing that I remember bugging me about the older ones was that even though there was a classless system (which I like a lot) skills and combat were fairly simple so that you still just ended up with magic bros/healer bros/archer bro/fighter bro in every game. I'm not saying there needs to be perks or sth, but some way to give more diversity to character development might be nice. Maybe its better in the current games?
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,079
The most enjoyable part is the encounter system while dungeoneering. There are quite a few challenging and enjoyable fights there and your characters placement actually matters, not to mention that you try also to conserve energy because apart from potions there's no other way to replenish it in dungeons. Winning some of those fights felt p.good. Overland combat is more basic and more of a brawl usually.

I'm really enjoying this. Vogel may have been accused of remaking the same game, but the fact that this huge and well made crpg is the work of one man, is very impressive. And hey, I'm also starting to encounter some actual story/quest C&C, things are getting even more interesting.

Don't get me wrong bros, I am actually intrrested in the latest Iteration of Avernum. If it has the features of the old games plus better assets and combat, that sounds pretty Damn good to me especially since I never played the others past the shareware demo and the plot would be fresh. The thing that I remember bugging me about the older ones was that even though there was a classless system (which I like a lot) skills and combat were fairly simple so that you still just ended up with magic bros/healer bros/archer bro/fighter bro in every game. I'm not saying there needs to be perks or sth, but some way to give more diversity to character development might be nice. Maybe its better in the current games?
From what I've seen the possibilities are there. Apart from the custom characters you can get premade archetypes. I started with a basic fighter/rogue/priest/mage, it works, but eventually I went back and made a fully custom party. It's basically one fighter/tank , one priest (melee) and two mage-archers with varied spells. The utility skills are spread throughout the party (tools, cave lore). Thrown weapons should be avoided imo. There are a lot of perks to consider too. The way I see it it's not like you can create extremely varied parties that are equally strong, but once you get to know the game, you can get a lot of ideas for different variations.

The thing is that they way the character creation works it's almost always better to focus on one attribute (str/dex/int) and pump some endurance in between. I don't think 50/50 fighter/magic hybrid characters can be especially good. On the other hand a party only with pure magic users could be something to consider. With the right skills/perks they could wreck havoc and never even have to hold a weapon.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,379
He's kind of obsessed with the "piracy" thing, isn't he? Doesn't realize that the Codex has long since transformed into a Steam whoring community. :smug:

Some small, struggling artists get super-obsessed with piracy and become convinced everyone is stealing from them, and the people pirating their stuff are somehow normal customers that would totally buy their stuff if piracy didn't exist.

It's a weird attitude, but it's very real, I can attest to it personally, have known and been good friends with creative types who are otherwise cool people who really, really despise anyone associated with piracy (which I guess means everyone).
 

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