Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Jeff Vogel: 22 games in 22 years, mostly from his basement

poetic codex

Augur
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
292
Cleve must be crying in his bunker.

A mere human can release 22 games in 22 years while a neanderthal couldn't even release one in 19.
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,487
Location
Shaper Crypt
Before, when he was trying to milk the Dragon Age audience without spending much effort and was actually succeeding at that, he talked the other talk. RPGcodex were the hateful grognards (that's not his quote but it's fitting), do you remember that? Geneforges are cool and stuff, but it's more like a matter of self-respect - I don't think that the codex should pay any respect to the guy until he officially makes an apology.

He's still working on Bioware-inspired Avadon 3. I don't know, maybe the sales on Steam, thanks to the terrible quality management, have started to dry up? After all, Vogel's new games offer little of interest in the mare magnum of Steam indies. Not the first time Vogel has shown little skill in managing sales (I remember his cringeworthy posts about pricing). He's smart, but not a genius.

"Hateful grognards" is even too kind, he pretty much stated that the 'Dex was a bunch of insane, rage-filled pirates. Very poor PR from his side. But who cares?

but he gotta remake the art resources with his remakes anyway, why not make new ones? but i get it, milking the cow of her stale milk and all.

He's burnt. Read the interview: he's 40, has kids and he does not want to take risks. Probably the best for him, though.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,037
Location
Platypus Planet
I wouldnt mind if he continued making games with the same engine as either Avernum or Geneforge, but with different worlds instead.

Why not a RPG set in the future/space/somewhere else? remake old SSI games? Matrix Cube?

Because then he can't reuse the same art resources. That's why his settings don't deviate radically from each other.

but he gotta remake the art resources with his remakes anyway, why not make new ones? but i get it, milking the cow of her stale milk and all.

Nah, man. Avernum 1 & 2 remakes have the same resources that he's been using since Geneforge 4/ Avernum 4. He makes a few new ones with each game, but then adds it into the continuously growing circulation. It gets pretty jarring and tiresome in the long run when you play more than just a few of his games and they all look the game.
And that's disregarding that he always has only one ruleset at a time that he milks the shit out of as well and each game has the same goddamn spells and skills.
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
In a better world, we'd be hype by kickstarter campaigns about Nethergate 2, Knights of the Chalice 2, DHARGUL and Pirates of the Western Sea.

But noooo, let's look into the mouth of former AAA devs fucking up trying to make games we used to (somewhat) like :stupid:
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,460
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
come on guys maybe avadon 3 will be totally different and really good.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,828
I think a lot of people are being pretty harsh here.

While I do not place Vogel games at the top of my list, they have been (mostly) good enough to enjoy a playthrough or two, have been created by basically one person, and were present throughout the long, dark years of decline. All of the 'Big Names' getting the kickstarter money now, used to sing words straight out of the decline gospel book for years, hoping to entice some publisher into giving them money for a new popamole "CRPG". Meanwhile, one man plugged away in his basement and delivered, year after year, producing entertaining CRPGs. Some perhaps could only be described as mildly entertaining, but all of them hit that general oldschool button to some degree. Of course I wished they were better in many ways, but none of them (at least to me) were games I wanted to throw in the bin 10 minutes in. They were polished, finished, ready to play CRPGs when you bought them.

As for Vogel, he does sound like a moron from time to time, he does milk his assets and he does reuse rulesets...you know, like old CRPGs used to do...

So thanks for the games, especially during the decline.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
4,460
Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Agreed Ladonna, and I'd go a step further and say that I do put some Vogel games at the top of my list. The Geneforge series and Nethergate were top notch.
 

torpid

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
1,099
Location
Isma's Grove
I think a lot of people are being pretty harsh here.

While I do not place Vogel games at the top of my list, they have been (mostly) good enough to enjoy a playthrough or two, have been created by basically one person, and were present throughout the long, dark years of decline. All of the 'Big Names' getting the kickstarter money now, used to sing words straight out of the decline gospel book for years, hoping to entice some publisher into giving them money for a new popamole "CRPG". Meanwhile, one man plugged away in his basement and delivered, year after year, producing entertaining CRPGs. Some perhaps could only be described as mildly entertaining, but all of them hit that general oldschool button to some degree. Of course I wished they were better in many ways, but none of them (at least to me) were games I wanted to throw in the bin 10 minutes in. They were polished, finished, ready to play CRPGs when you bought them.

As for Vogel, he does sound like a moron from time to time, he does milk his assets and he does reuse rulesets...you know, like old CRPGs used to do...

So thanks for the games, especially during the decline.

I agree with this, but I still can't take him seriously. He's always sounded so complacent and cynical. I mean, I can't really fault him if he manages to make it work and is able to sell remake after remake, but I really wish he would've tried to expand his operation at some point. I thought that was going to happen with Avadon, though in a Biowarean direction--you mention that the "Big Names" were preaching the Gospel of Decline, but Vogel did take a page out of that book, too--but it seems that he's now retreated to his basement.

As for the games themselves, while the Geneforges are legit good, the Avernums don't really hold up so well now that we're Inclining. It's almost a little embarrassing--"I was enjoying that?" Like the high school girl you run into a few years later, realizing that she hasn't turned out so well and is a throwback to an earlier time from which you've moved on, but she tries to rekindle the flame.

Also: THOSE CHARACTER PORTRAITS. Having suffered through the games with the older portraits, I can't help but be passive-aggressive with him. It's a kind of PTSD
 

Kattze

Andhaira
Andhaira
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
4,722
Location
Babang Ilalim

Jeff Vogel:
For example, take Minecraft. Minecraft, in its basic form, is just out of control in terms of contemporary game design. You go into Minecraft, and Minecraft just murders you. And then it just murders you again.

There’s probably nothing more iconic in video games now than the Creeper, and what the Creeper is in Minecraft, it’s this funny-looking cactus that walks up to you and just blows up, and all the cool stuff that you’ve created is blown up, too. From a modern game design perspective, it’s a terrible idea.

Creepers are unfair. They just kill you without warning. They destroy your work. They make you feel bad. And yet they’re absolutely compelling. They probably made $100 million now just selling little stuffed Creepers. My kids alone have like 80 different Creepers.

They’re the best possible form of bad design. I could live 10 lifetimes and not come up with an idea as good as the Creeper.

:lol:

This is exactly why some of the best classics were made on shoe string budgets with devs sustaining on ramen noodles.
 

Gulnar

Scholar
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
133
I actually like the guy. I mean, who cares if he's full of shit, he released geneforge. I like geneforge. It's the closest thing to sacrifice that was ever made. It has combat with turns. You can summon beholders. It has no romances based on simply being a mediocre sociopath. Yes, it reused the same assets for five games in a row, but then, who am i to blame him? I would have done the same.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,057
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Creepers are great game design, actually. In a game that consists of building cool stuff, what could possibly be scarier than a silent enemy that destroys your cool stuff? Nobody gives a shit about the skeletons and spiders because they just kill you.

"Hateful grognards" is even too kind, he pretty much stated that the 'Dex was a bunch of insane, rage-filled pirates.
But we are a bunch of insane, rage-filled pirates.

Nowadays we're more of a bunch of insane, rage filled bundlefags who won't pay more than $10 cents for a game, which probably enrages Vogel even more.

Cleve must be crying in his bunker.

A mere human can release 22 games in 22 years while a neanderthal couldn't even release one in 19.

Grimuah will be worth 30 regular sapien games. See you in 2030, miscreant.

:bunkertime:
 

granit

Scholar
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
128
Vogel is a hero just for making the Exile series. I can't speak for the remakes since I never played them. Even if they suck, he still created the originals - can't take that away from him. I should probably give Geneforge a spin.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,854
I should probably give Geneforge a spin.
You really should, Geneforce is fucking good. Be warned tho, its a completely different animal from Exile, its very interesting how a single guy could make two series that are so different in so many ways, yet both are top quality.
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,488
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"Hateful grognards" is even too kind, he pretty much stated that the 'Dex was a bunch of insane, rage-filled pirates.

Speaking of which, I just came across this tweet of his to Robert Boyd (cc felipepepe) from yesterday:

https://twitter.com/spiderwebsoft/status/568886877073186816

He's kind of obsessed with the "piracy" thing, isn't he? Doesn't realize that the Codex has long since transformed into a Steam whoring community. :smug:
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,487
Location
Shaper Crypt

Interesting. He has not changed his views, it seems. What a pity. I should hunt down his posts about piracy. It seems that he has AGAIN changed opinion.... wasn't he the defender of "those poor children in second world countries can pirate my games, I don't care?".

Remember, engage only with "sycophant, apparently piracy-free communities" :roll:


You really should, Geneforce is fucking good. Be warned tho, its a completely different animal from Exile, its very interesting how a single guy could make two series that are so different in so many ways, yet both are top quality.

Vogel is a hero just for making the Exile series.

I actually like the guy. I mean, who cares if he's full of shit, he released geneforge. I like geneforge.

I do put some Vogel games at the top of my list. The Geneforge series and Nethergate were top notch.

I think a lot of people are being pretty harsh here. So thanks for the games, especially during the decline.


If this is an example of hatred, I don't know what to say. Have these people never been judged in their entire lives? I mean, if we were to test harsh judgement we could do
a Codex review of Robert Boyd's games (I find them the very definition of mediocre, soulless clones of far better forefathers, but who knows).
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,487
Location
Shaper Crypt
Jeff Vogel 2010 said:
This blog post is about the bright side of software piracy. It's about the times when not only is it OK to steal my games, but, in fact, I get something out of it. Perhaps an unusual topic for a blog post from a game developer.

I admit to being a little bit nervous about writing this. The sad truth is that, these days, it is so easy to pirate single-player PC games that most gamers only have to pay for them if they want to pay for them. And there is strong evidence (links below) to indicate that they usually don't want to pay for them. So giving people ammunition they can use to convince themselves that they shouldn't pay for my games seems perilous, especially since they are, after all, how I support my family. But I got into the blogging game to write about the reality of the game biz from the viewpoint of my shadowy little corner, and piracy is a huge part of it, so here we go.

Of Course, Piracy Is Almost Always Wrong

I think that the best way of evaluating the morality of an action is to ask, "What would happen if everyone who wanted to do it did it?" Littering and dumping toxic waste into rivers are wrong because, if everyone who wanted to do those things did them, our streets would be choked with refuse and our drinking water would be half benzene. And pirating PC games is wrong because, were it not for that minority of worthy souls who actually chip in, the industry that makes the games we love would descend into a shadow realm of tiny ad-supported Flash games and Farmville. Some people would be cool with that, but I'm looking forward to playing Starcraft 2, thanks.

And I've now set myself up for 50 comments of increasingly overwrought and implausible justifications for why pirating games is a good, noble thing to do. No. Sorry. You don't get everything you want in this world. You can get piles of cool stuff for free. Or you can be an honorable, ethical being. You don't get both.

Most of the time.

Because, when I'm being honest with myself, which happens sometimes, I have to admit that piracy is not an absolute evil. That I do get things out of it, even when I'm the one being ripped off.

Computers Exist In the Third World

Every so often, I get an e-mail in broken English from some kid in Russia or southeast Asia or India. He says how how he is playing my game in a cyber-cafe, for fun and perhaps to practice English. The disparity in the strength of the currency between our two countries makes it impossible it is for him to get the 25 or 28 hard US dollars to buy my game. (It's entirely possible in much of the world to not be dirt poor and yet to be entirely unable to scrape together a chunk of hard U.S. dollars.) The message ends with a sincere and heart-rending plea for a registration key.

Now, you're probably thinking, "Yeah, the kid is probably making it up." I doubt it. Remember, my games are easy to pirate. Anyone who wants to steal my games can grab them any time he or she wants. Maybe some of these pleas are fake, but I'm sure that most aren't.

When I get one of these message, what I want to respond is, "PIRATE MY STUPID GAME!!!" I mean, seriously, the time used drafting that e-mail would have been much more profitably spent figuring out how BitTorrent works.

But I don't say that. I delete the e-mail unanswered. Because, the truth is that these games are how I feed my family. Asking me for free keys is simply not a behavior I want to encourage.

But I really hope those kids pirated my game. And I am sure that, for every such e-mail I received, a horde of others in faraway lands pirated it on their own. Sometimes, thanks to the vagaries of the international monetary order, my games are just out of reach any other way. And, when people enjoy my work, it gives my life meaning, which bring me to ...

I Want My Life To Have Meaning

I consider myself a reasonably bright person, who works hard to make something people like. When I'm old and crumbling, I want to be able to feel that I had a successful life in which my work brought happiness to a lot of people.

I feel fully financially compensated for my time when one of my games (which usually takes a year or so to make) sells 5000 copies. However, from the game industry perspective, 5000 copies is nothing. Even the crappiest flop from a real publisher sells a ton more than that. So am I wasting my life? If I really care about the number of people I reach and the amount of happiness I bring, shouldn't I try to get a job somewhere where my work has a chance of reaching far more people?

But then I remember that for everyone who buys my game, dozens more just tried the demo. And a lot of those people will play the whole demo, have fun, decide they had enough, and move on. That counts as providing fun for people, sort of.

But, more importantly, the percentage of people who pirate PC games seems to be very high. It's possible that 90% of the copies of my games out there are pirated. There is definitely solid evidence that the piracy rate for PC games is that high, and believe me, there are a thousand ways to get my games for free. It happens a lot. And, if that figure holds, that brings the player base for each of my games to 50000. That is a number that can keep me from lying awake at night.

Of course, a lot of those people could have bought it but decided to pirate it instead. In other words, jerks. Which brings up a good question. Am I satisfied that my life's work went to make a jerk happy? Does that give me Life Value points? Is it a worthwhile thing to bring a jerk pleasure? This is generally the point where I force myself to think about something else.

But not everyone who steals a game has money. Some of them are legitimately poor. Which brings me to one final point.

The Recession Is a Thing That is Happening

These days, some people are legitimately poor. Many people, through a mix of poor fiscal choices and ill fortune, are in bad shape. Foreclosed on, or facing foreclosure. Trying to pay down a mountain of credit card debt. Unemployed for a long time. Lacking health insurance. Some people brush this growing population off, saying, "Oh, they brought it on themselves." And sometimes that is true. They made mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. I make mistakes. It's just that some people are unlucky enough to be savagely punished for their mistakes.

Someone who is facing long-term unemployment and bankruptcy probably should not pay for my game. And, in that case, if stealing my game gives them a temporary reprieve from their misery (and there's a lot of misery out there right now), I'm cool with that. I'm happy to help. These are my fellow citizens, and I want to help out how I can.

Now here is what I am NOT saying. If some kid has to actually save his allowance for a few weeks to buy the game, stealing it is instead of paying is not cool. I'm not OK with that. If you can pay, you should pay. But I understand that some people can't. It's reality. As for whether someone can truly pay or not, I have to trust them to be able to tell the difference. It's probably unwise to trust so many strangers so much with my livelihood on the line. But it's not like I have a choice.

How I Will Now Single-Handedly Solve the Problem of Piracy

I just have to add one thing, and then I can hopefully go without writing about this ugly topic for a good, long time. The way the economics of the business work right now, if you want good PC games, someone has to pay for them. You can't support a project like Starcraft 2 with ads. The money just isn't there.

If you like PC games but you usually pirate them, I want you to start actually paying for one game a year. Just one. Please. You should do it because you need to do it to help something you like to continue to exist. Sure, you might find that doing the virtuous thing feels surprisingly good. But, in the end, you should do it for the reason anyone ever really does anything: Because it is in your best interests to do so.

But what game should you pay for? It's tempting to say you should support some small Indie, like me, who is just working hard to support his family. But I don't believe that. The people who made Starcraft 2 have families to. No, buy the game that you feel most deserves to be rewarded. Who gave you the most fun, or carried the industry forward, or that you felt treated you fairly.

Maybe that game is Starcraft 2. Maybe it's Avernum 6 or Aveyond or Eschalon 2 or World of Goo or one of a million tiny games. It might even be Assassin's Creed 2. Could happen.

And, before you post flaming me because Piracy-Is-Always-Good or Always-Bad, remember that all I'm trying to do is pay a little visit to reality-land. And while I do get something out of piracy, all things being equal, it's better to pay for the thing you use. Again, with PC games, you can get cool free stuff, or you can be honorable. You don't get both. Once in a while, be part of the solution.

Ahh, the Beauty of the Net. Everything archived. And I was one of these kids pirating his stuff because it was too complex ordering them at a young age. Not exactly thirld-world, yet....
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom