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Jeff Vogel: 22 games in 22 years, mostly from his basement

Gregz

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... I think that contemporary game design is actually kind of bad. I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct. We’re making games. We should allow them to go crazy sometimes.

:nofunallowed:
 

Crooked Bee

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seems like his biggest problem is thats his getting old

I think he defines his place rather well in that interview, amounting basically to "right place, right time". Which is mostly enough to describe Vogel's approach to RPG design.*

* Except, actually, the Geneforge series - amusingly, seemingly abandoned by Vogel himself by now. I may be wrong, but I do believe Geneforge transcends Vogel's own, fairly short-sighted design sensibilities and manages to become something greater, perhaps even despite its maker's will. Exile, Nethergate, and Avernum are okay, but they never go beyond your average tactical RPG formula, whereas Geneforge does break new, or at least rarely trodden ground in its setting and its approach to C&C alike.
 

torpid

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There are like 7-8 remakes in those 22 titles tho


Surprised that I'm agreeing with him in some places:

Vogel said:
It’s not good design, from a contemporary game design perspective, which is why I think that contemporary game design is actually kind of bad. I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct. We’re making games. We should allow them to go crazy sometimes.

But then:

But it’s like, nobody wants to hear The Rolling Stones’ new songs. I was lucky enough two years ago to see Paul McCartney in concert. When he did his new songs, you could feel the energy fall out of the audience. “Oh, God, you asshole, we don’t wanna hear this, sing ‘Yesterday.'” It’s the same thing.

Yes Jeff, you are the Rolling Stones and the Beatles of video game development rolled into one

I need to keep making new games, but at the same time, from now on, I could just do rewrites. (...) I will be doing rewrites until I retire. Who knows when that’ll be, but it’s not going to be for a long time. I have to rewrite the whole Geneforge series. That’s five games.

zzzzzzz
 

Metro

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Yeah, yeah, I know you love Geneforge that's why I said 'most!'
 

torpid

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Ya, he at least recognizes that Geneforge is his chef d'oeuvre, but that won't stop him from remaking them. And then remaking the remakes in 10 years. I guess I at least have to commend him for his openness about his plan to milk his catalog until he's geriatric.
 

Machocruz

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So what's this about age discrimination in tech? Not the first time I've read about it. Is it real, or is it guys making excuses?
 

almondblight

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* Except, actually, the Geneforge series - amusingly, seemingly abandoned by Vogel himself by now. I may be wrong, but I do believe Geneforge transcends Vogel's own, fairly short-sighted design sensibilities and manages to become something greater, perhaps even despite its maker's will. Exile, Nethergate, and Avernum are okay, but they never go beyond your average tactical RPG formula, whereas Geneforge does break new, or at least rarely trodden ground in its setting and its approach to C&C alike.

There's a lot of stuff in the Exile games (particularly the last two) that breaks new or rarely trodden ground. Monsters destroying cities if you take too long to stop them, well done exploration (probably one of the most satisfying RPGs to just run around the map checking things out), enemy placement making use of the environment (front entrance to an enemy fort being a narrow pass where archers are shooting at you through the windows from either side), action breaking out in the middle of a player doing other things (the attack on the fort while you're just walking around talking to people in Exile II, for instance) - I'd probably think of more if I'd played them recently. There are plenty of times when I've been playing an RPG and thought, "Why couldn't they have done this like they did it in Exile?"

Nethergate did an interesting thing with the ability to play the game from either side (and it's pretty interesting how the areas feel different for the different sides). He also managed to create an editor that lead to a pretty vibrant editing community. Check out the BoE scenarios list, and compare it to the list of scenarios from recent games; now consider that Vogel had probably 1/100 the audience.

He says some pretty stupid stuff, made some lackluster games, and is remaking his first series for the third time. But still, there's a lot he's done that's better than most/all (can't think of an RPG that gives you the same kind of freedom that Geneforge does, though it looks like AoD will when it comes out) RPGs out there, even well-funded stuff coming from RPG dream teams.
 

pippin

Guest
Isn't the Geneforge series the next thing to remake when he's done with Avernum?
 

Mustawd

Guest
He says some pretty stupid stuff, made some lackluster games, and is remaking his first series for the third time. But still, there's a lot he's done that's better than most/all (can't think of an RPG that gives you the same kind of freedom that Geneforge does, though it looks like AoD will when it comes out) RPGs out there, even well-funded stuff coming from RPG dream teams.


Let's also not forget this is ONE guy. At some point the creative well starts to dry up for even some of the best artists/writers/developers out there. Plus, having to provide for a family tends to dull your risk-taking appetite.

Also, totally agree with the Indie bubble comments for the most part.
 

mondblut

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Surprisingly cool intie. Refreshing after all his "Dragon Age 2 is GOTY would buy again and rewrite all my crap old games to copycat it" bullshit of the past few years.

Loved the Rolling Stones snippet. It's like he keeps visiting the Codex for approval only to find out Exile 3 still stands miles above anything he did after. Yeah, dude, you did your "Satisfaction" back in 1997.

He keeps remaking his games faster than I play through them. By the time I get to Avernum 6, it would probably be the fifth remake of it.
 

ColCol

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You can churn out a lot of games when you intend on putting no effort or drive into your work.
 
Last edited:

MicoSelva

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That was a surprisingly good interview. Vogel is a really unique phenomenon in this industry and could be one of the most important contemporary developers from historical perspective. I still do not like his games very much, though - but I only tried a couple of them, and not for very long.

How is it possible that there has not been a Matt Chat interview with him yet (or maybe there has but I forgot about it)?
 

Luzur

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I wouldnt mind if he continued making games with the same engine as either Avernum or Geneforge, but with different worlds instead.

Why not a RPG set in the future/space/somewhere else? remake old SSI games? Matrix Cube?
 

Hobo Elf

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I wouldnt mind if he continued making games with the same engine as either Avernum or Geneforge, but with different worlds instead.

Why not a RPG set in the future/space/somewhere else? remake old SSI games? Matrix Cube?

Because then he can't reuse the same art resources. That's why his settings don't deviate radically from each other.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
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Eh, as I've said before, I don't think that Vogel is retarded or stupid or anything - I think he's quite sly and this thought reversal is all because his new mainstream friends turned out to be not so much friends after all. Now that instead of selling copies by volume he's forced to fall back on his "pushing expensive games to niche audience" plan, of course he will spew a lot of bullshit like this, trying to look humble and rational and whatnot.

Before, when he was trying to milk the Dragon Age audience without spending much effort and was actually succeeding at that, he talked the other talk. RPGcodex were the hateful grognards (that's not his quote but it's fitting), do you remember that? Geneforges are cool and stuff, but it's more like a matter of self-respect - I don't think that the codex should pay any respect to the guy until he officially makes an apology.
 

Luzur

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I wouldnt mind if he continued making games with the same engine as either Avernum or Geneforge, but with different worlds instead.

Why not a RPG set in the future/space/somewhere else? remake old SSI games? Matrix Cube?

Because then he can't reuse the same art resources. That's why his settings don't deviate radically from each other.

but he gotta remake the art resources with his remakes anyway, why not make new ones? but i get it, milking the cow of her stale milk and all.
 

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