JA2 vanilla vs 1.13

[Plisken]

I love 1.13 but the amount of options "out of the box" were a bit overwhelming. And while documentation is extensive, its not well organised.

I also had to switch from new CTH to old, which improved the game massively. I'm not sure who thinks new CTH is better because its fucking not, and the AI acts more retarded with it on (basically they just rush you like lemmings instead of using cover or camping), and theres nothing fun about experienced marksman not being able to hit someone 20 yards away. The argument against old CTH was that it favored snipers too much, but this is usually a complaint fielded by realismpedantics, which is ironic, because IRL favors snipers too, thats why they spend so much time and money training the fucking pricks and spend comparatively little time and money training a SAW gunner. To me it just seems a little silly if you want to attempt to turn the game into a combat sim and then turn around and complain that people who can hit what t hey are aiming at from really long distances are *too* effective.

and besides, with the re-enabled suppression features from 1.13 it mostly makes non-marksman useful again.

The new CTH IS better. Enemies only had the problem you described at the very beginning (in some earlier versions) when they had crap pistols in first few combats. Also the new CTH had its numbers not well tweaked in base 1.13 for a long time. However there are mods that makes it work very well from the start.
The problem with old CTH is not with snipers hitting things - the problem is with anyone being able to hit things way too reliably. You're making a straw man.
And you can reliably hit stuff at longer distances than you claim with new CTH, it just requires more skill and better equipment than it used to. Another straw man.
Also 20 meters in game was never simply 20 meters. As you can clearly see most distances are divided by a factor of 10 in JA2. A gun with 200m effective firing range irl = 20 squares in game. So those 20 squates are at the same time 20m and 200m in a manner of speaking. Such is the abstraction used by the devs of original JA2.

In the end what matters is if a game system works. And new CTH not only works well but also gives a more varied experience compared to the old one. Most people disliked nCTH because it was for a long time (maybe still is - look for mods in this case) badly balanced in the base 1.13. Also it made the game slightly more challenging - most people despite claiming to like challenge, like winning even more so there is that as possible cause. Maybe not.

I dont think there has been many, if any, new versions since i last played earlier this year. Do you have any links to said mods? Because i found the CTH so frustratingly boring in the early game coupled with the ai behavior that i never went back.

 

[octavius]

Octavius, there is reduced chance to hit prone enemies, especially if they are behind a rock or tree.

But the displayed CTH is still high. The CTH display seems a bit bugged too, though. Sometimes it reports a high chance, but the merc in question complains about not getting a good shot.
So it leads to scumsaving when the numbers reported is not the actual hit chance.
If the game was less buggy I would have considered an Ironman run.

What version are you playing ?
CTH being high and at the same time merc complaining that he can't hit IIRC usually means that the target is obscured by something but if that wasn't the case he would be easy to hit. So not a bug (or usually not a bug).

I'm playing 1.13 Vanilla.
So CTH does not consider cover? That's not very intuitive?

 

[Serus]

Octavius, there is reduced chance to hit prone enemies, especially if they are behind a rock or tree.

But the displayed CTH is still high. The CTH display seems a bit bugged too, though. Sometimes it reports a high chance, but the merc in question complains about not getting a good shot.
So it leads to scumsaving when the numbers reported is not the actual hit chance.
If the game was less buggy I would have considered an Ironman run.

What version are you playing ?
CTH being high and at the same time merc complaining that he can't hit IIRC usually means that the target is obscured by something but if that wasn't the case he would be easy to hit. So not a bug (or usually not a bug).

I'm playing 1.13 Vanilla.
So CTH does not consider cover? That's not very intuitive?

Not sure what exactly the situation is. Maybe it is a bug in your case. It's not like 1.13 is bug-free. When merc complains about not being able to shoot - the target when you put the cursor on it should change - loose its colours IIRC. And that is telling you that he is hard to hit because of cover. Or maybe I'm mixing something, but i'm pretty sure there is some indication that the shoot is almost impossible - CTH as you see it is not it. In case i mixed something - just disregard. Last time i attempted JA2 was more ~1 year ago... and i stopped because of some annoying bugs.

 

[Serus]

I love 1.13 but the amount of options "out of the box" were a bit overwhelming. And while documentation is extensive, its not well organised.

I also had to switch from new CTH to old, which improved the game massively. I'm not sure who thinks new CTH is better because its fucking not, and the AI acts more retarded with it on (basically they just rush you like lemmings instead of using cover or camping), and theres nothing fun about experienced marksman not being able to hit someone 20 yards away. The argument against old CTH was that it favored snipers too much, but this is usually a complaint fielded by realismpedantics, which is ironic, because IRL favors snipers too, thats why they spend so much time and money training the fucking pricks and spend comparatively little time and money training a SAW gunner. To me it just seems a little silly if you want to attempt to turn the game into a combat sim and then turn around and complain that people who can hit what t hey are aiming at from really long distances are *too* effective.

and besides, with the re-enabled suppression features from 1.13 it mostly makes non-marksman useful again.

The new CTH IS better. Enemies only had the problem you described at the very beginning (in some earlier versions) when they had crap pistols in first few combats. Also the new CTH had its numbers not well tweaked in base 1.13 for a long time. However there are mods that makes it work very well from the start.
The problem with old CTH is not with snipers hitting things - the problem is with anyone being able to hit things way too reliably. You're making a straw man.
And you can reliably hit stuff at longer distances than you claim with new CTH, it just requires more skill and better equipment than it used to. Another straw man.
Also 20 meters in game was never simply 20 meters. As you can clearly see most distances are divided by a factor of 10 in JA2. A gun with 200m effective firing range irl = 20 squares in game. So those 20 squates are at the same time 20m and 200m in a manner of speaking. Such is the abstraction used by the devs of original JA2.

In the end what matters is if a game system works. And new CTH not only works well but also gives a more varied experience compared to the old one. Most people disliked nCTH because it was for a long time (maybe still is - look for mods in this case) badly balanced in the base 1.13. Also it made the game slightly more challenging - most people despite claiming to like challenge, like winning even more so there is that as possible cause. Maybe not.

I dont think there has been many, if any, new versions since i last played earlier this year. Do you have any links to said mods? Because i found the CTH so frustratingly boring in the early game coupled with the ai behavior that i never went back.

Their page is a mess. I haven't visited it for quite some time and I played last time over a year ago (abandoned due to bugs - sic!) so I honestly don't remember. But there are mods that balance (or include balancing) of nCTH. I thought they would balance it by now in main 1.13. Apparently not. Just me being too optimistic again.

What I'm trying to say - giving up on nCTH too fast might not be the best idea. It CAN work well. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it. Just lack of balancing. Of curse if one doesn't think it's worth the hassle... oCTH also works. It's all about the time you want to spend perfecting your game before actually playing it. You might not find it worthwhile and that's a legit opinion. Sorry if I sounded too harsh. But the fact remains - nCTH can work extremely well if you are willing to invest some time.

 

[GarfunkeL]

The new CTH makes it harder to hit enemies in the beginning but not impossible, you just have to adapt. And I agree, it's a massive improvement over the old one, where loads of mercs could reliably make headshots with mediocre weapons at medium distances. Game became a bit boring when it was just six mercs on prone taking headshots all day long.

The AI Lemming issue still exists though it isn't as bad as it used to be. When they have more gear and better firearms than just pistols or shotguns, it's less prevalent. I *think* it's caused by a faulty loop in the AI script or something like that - a pistol wielding enemy runs towards you, notices another merc, realizes he is in danger, tries to run away but lacks AP to do it, or wastes their AP running back and forth. With more and better equipped enemies, you DO see them flanking and sniping and using suppressive fire and calling mortar strikes on you.

I think the 1.13 Vanilla is just a buggy mess since hardly anyone plays it, so probably nobody reports issues or bothers to fix them. I didn't even know it existed until Octavius brought it up in this thread.

 

[Shaewaroz]

I have not played a newer version of the 1.13 in about 10 years but the older versions of it (especially the 687) are more enjoyable than Vanilla. Newer versions of the 1.13 (that I have played) are progressively worse and not all new features are optional.

My thoughts exactly. The last time I played 1.13 I was put off especially by the new aiming display.

Spoiler

I also would recommend new players to disable Drassen Counter Attack, since it forces you to either flee or save scum like hell to kill the billion enemies you have to face to defend Drassen. Even if you manage to successfully defend Drassen, you will get so much quality equipment that all the remaining battles in the game feel like child's play in comparison.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Since Octavius the thread 2 pages ago, all talk about 1.13 boils down (as usual) to : "Version ? Bugs. Version ? Bugs." I think it aswers the years old thread original question quite nicely.

 

[KateMicucci]

I find it strange that putting a 2x scope on a gun makes it twice as accurate.

 

[Zdzisiu]

I find it strange that putting a 2x scope on a gun makes it twice as accurate.

But thats what the 2x means!

Right?

 

[octavius]

Holy shit, that Grumm Mine.



And Mike ran away. I threw one Stun grenade and two regular ones at him, but he still had action points.

And I'm getting rather tired of the bullet sponges in this game.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You are using AP and not HP ammo, right?

 

[Serus]

Holy shit, that Grumm Mine.



And Mike ran away. I threw one Stun grenade and two regular ones at him, but he still had action points.

And I'm getting rather tired of the bullet sponges in this game.

Bullet sponges ? Really ? Headshots in this game often kill outright. Otherwise you usually need a few bullets to kill but calling it "sponges" ?
Most enemies have armour after early game so ammunition with low penetration isn't very useful past early game. Or alternatively you need very precise shots (so snipers or very close range). In the end, if you use decent guns and ammo - really no sponges in this game. Mike might be an exception but he probably has good armour in addition to high stats so he might be hard to kill/stun. He is supposed to be a tough motherfucker.