JA2 vanilla vs 1.13

[vean]

Someone who's played both plz compare them.

I've only played 1.13 and while at first it seemed really cool (I even did a LP of it that only the cool kids will remember), but thinking back at it, it seems I was hoodwinked into liking it by the aesthetics and humor for the most part, because the strategic and tactical parts are really bad.

The AI seems to be optimized for maximum time wasting, with the way the enemies dance around concealment so that nobody can hit each other, higher difficulties rely very heavily on cheese like waiting on roofs, there's tons of pointless busywork like managing backpacks and doctoring, maps are small, boring and same-y, the CTH is too low even at very high levels, reducing player tactics almost exclusively to 'bunch up and hope at least one of us hits' and taking morale hits from leaving combat greatly reduces strategy.

I'm currently replaying Silent Storm and having a lot of fun, but I can't ever see myself going back to the frustrating mess that is JA2 1.13.

Why is that game considered to be the apex of squad tactics games?

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

because it is.

 

[Declinator]

I prefer vanilla JA2 in almost all things. 1.13 has a worse inventory system, a worse CTH system, too many pointless guns with no functional differences, and scoped weapons are overpowered.

However the AI has some improvements that sometimes work well and other times not so well. There are some new features like seeing field of view and if I remember right higher resolutions are available.

Some people also like the realism offered by the inventory system and some people are really into gun porn so they don't mind weapons that have no differences as long as they get their mitts on a SCAR-H and what have you.

Also, most things you can modify to your liking or turn off.

 

[laclongquan]

Because you can field 10+ soldier in a battle if you want, not that you would want it.

Excellent though Silent Storm is, it still limit you to a squad.

 

[kwanzabot]

I've always wanted to play 1.13 but i always end up with really bad crashing problems when i install it

furthest i've ever got was the drassen counter attack, one thing i like more in vanilla is the inventory but im pretty sure the new inventory is optional , and i like silent storm and hammer n sickle quite a bit but i liked JA2 vanilla more then them

 

[Serus]

People, people - most things are optional in 1.13. The new inventory sysytem can be turned off if you so wish (iirc). The amount of guns ? Chose fewer guns option at start instead of lost of guns. The latter is the option with excessive gunporn, the former is closer to vanilla lots of guns... There are two CTH systems to chose as well. And a whole lot of other customization options via start menu or .ini files - completely absent in vanilla. A propos, vanilla CTH is nothing good, works well at the beginning of the game but leads quickly to very one-sided strategies (in vanilla game: longer range on gun = better gun most of the time, the heaviest assault rifles plus the overpowered snipers is all you want mid-late game, everything else is useless even in close combat, how is this a good system is beyond me). 1.13 with NCTH at least tried to make it more realistic and force some diversification. But haters gonna hate.
Of curse there some things that 1.13 have problems with - the major one is the AI, they tried to improve it and in some ways succeeded but in other ways the opposite is true. The AI of 1.13 was not able to cope with some of the additions last time i played. Unless some major improvements were made in the last ~1 year in this aspect, this is the main reason some1 might want to chose vanilla game. Stability was never a problem for me and i played several versions of 1.13 but it possibly might be another valid reason for someone.

 

[oneself]

I prefer vanilla JA2 in almost all things. 1.13

and scoped weapons are overpowered.

 

[Khor1255]

I have not played a newer version of the 1.13 in about 10 years but the older versions of it (especially the 687) are more enjoyable than Vanilla. Newer versions of the 1.13 (that I have played) are progressively worse and not all new features are optional.

 

[mondblut]

The AI seems to be optimized for maximum time wasting, with the way the enemies dance around concealment so that nobody can hit each other, higher difficulties rely very heavily on cheese like waiting on roofs, there's tons of pointless busywork like managing backpacks and doctoring, maps are small, boring and same-y, the CTH is too low even at very high levels, reducing player tactics almost exclusively to 'bunch up and hope at least one of us hits' and taking morale hits from leaving combat greatly reduces strategy.

Maybe you should try CoD. Games where AI won't run headlong into entrenched machineguns aren't awesome enough, eh? Doesn't have those silly backpacks and doctoring either.

1.13 = lots of stuff. vanilla = not lots of stuff. 1.13 >>> vanilla.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i found latest 1.13 issues literally unplayable. so many showstopping bugs it's unbelievable, last time i couldn't even finish the first frigging town between npcs not spawning, not walking, not responding and not finishing scripts.

 

[GloomFrost]

TIME TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH!!!!

1.13 all the way man. Like it was mentioned before it really ads a lot of staff but most of the new staff is optional. Also its fair enough if you enjoyed SS2 more but I m sure its a conversation for another topic alltogether. I think that JA2 1.13 is THE Everest of turn based squad tactics games.

 

[Khor1255]

The AI seems to be optimized for maximum time wasting, with the way the enemies dance around concealment so that nobody can hit each other, higher difficulties rely very heavily on cheese like waiting on roofs, there's tons of pointless busywork like managing backpacks and doctoring, maps are small, boring and same-y, the CTH is too low even at very high levels, reducing player tactics almost exclusively to 'bunch up and hope at least one of us hits' and taking morale hits from leaving combat greatly reduces strategy.

Maybe you should try CoD. Games where AI won't run headlong into entrenched machineguns aren't awesome enough, eh? Doesn't have those silly backpacks and doctoring either.

1.13 = lots of stuff. vanilla = not lots of stuff. 1.13 >>> vanilla.

Yes, because we all play games for bullshit clutter errr, stuff...

 

[GloomFrost]

i found latest 1.13 issues literally unplayable. so many showstopping bugs it's unbelievable, last time i couldn't even finish the first frigging town between npcs not spawning, not walking, not responding and not finishing scripts.

Playing 1.13 with the latest patch right now. Havent seen ANYTHING like that.

 

[GarfunkeL]

He can't just accept that he's a scrub he fucked up the installation. I've been played various 1.13 versions for years and I've never tried one that had bugs like that. Ergo; I'm either super-duper lucky or MadMaxHellfire screwed up the installation.

As to op:

The AI seems to be doing busywork because not all enemies are meant to be optimal tactical commandoes and because they do not operate with omniscience. So a red-shirt will, for example, move towards a merc of yours in an attempt to get a better shot, only to spot more of your mercs and decide that a tactical retreat is a better option. There have been versions where the AI was stuck in loops but that's pretty rare. Higher difficulties rely on numbers and buffed-up stats, not cheese - waiting on rooftops is not exactly cheese in a game like this to begin with and rooftop snipers are present at all difficult levels. The pointless busywork was there in vanilla already but the new inventory system is actually far more realistic than the old one - it's still quite not as realistic as I would want it to be but it's heads and shoulders above everyone else. Maps are exactly same as vanilla. The new CTH system lowers hit chances across the board because they were too high on vanilla and in early versions of 1.13 - getting marksmanship over 90 and having a decent gun meant a guaranteed torso hit under all circumstances and adding optics and getting a really accurate weapon meant pretty much guaranteed headshots. Now, if you want to be sure, you actually do need to use lot of the attachments available to you. Obviously the other side of this coin is that mercs at 50-75 range in marksmanship and with poor guns, are not going to hit much, which is why you're meant to equip them with automatic weapons and use them to suppress the enemy so that your lethal mercs can flank them. Let me guess, you bunch up your mercs in a spiffy little turtle-ball, then take max-aim potshots beyond gun range at the enemies. Combat takes ages, you get wounded a lot and it's really frustrating and annoying?

I have the same advice to you as the Requiem fanboys tell to everyone who complains about the difficult of that mod: GIT GUD.

You haven't seen pain until you try a night mission with enemy outnumbering you and having three elites with high level NVGs seeing your mercs far beyond visual range, throwing flares at you so their red-shirt comrades can spot you easily as well, using aimed burst fire to one-shot your mercs and tear gas grenades to scatter you. That kind of shit just doesn't happen in any other game or mod in this genre.

 

[vean]

Well I finished it on experienced+ironman so I'm something approaching GUD

The CTH is just too low. Trying any fancy tactics results in tears more often than not, even with the best IMP setup and the best weapons.

 

[Somberlain]

You can disable pretty much every 1.13 feature you don't like. There's no reason not to use it unless you are a purist.

 

[Khor1255]

He can't just accept that he's a scrub he fucked up the installation. I've been played various 1.13 versions for years and I've never tried one that had bugs like that. Ergo; I'm either super-duper lucky or MadMaxHellfire screwed up the installation.

As to op:

The AI seems to be doing busywork because not all enemies are meant to be optimal tactical commandoes and because they do not operate with omniscience. So a red-shirt will, for example, move towards a merc of yours in an attempt to get a better shot, only to spot more of your mercs and decide that a tactical retreat is a better option. There have been versions where the AI was stuck in loops but that's pretty rare. Higher difficulties rely on numbers and buffed-up stats, not cheese - waiting on rooftops is not exactly cheese in a game like this to begin with and rooftop snipers are present at all difficult levels. The pointless busywork was there in vanilla already but the new inventory system is actually far more realistic than the old one - it's still quite not as realistic as I would want it to be but it's heads and shoulders above everyone else. Maps are exactly same as vanilla. The new CTH system lowers hit chances across the board because they were too high on vanilla and in early versions of 1.13 - getting marksmanship over 90 and having a decent gun meant a guaranteed torso hit under all circumstances and adding optics and getting a really accurate weapon meant pretty much guaranteed headshots. Now, if you want to be sure, you actually do need to use lot of the attachments available to you. Obviously the other side of this coin is that mercs at 50-75 range in marksmanship and with poor guns, are not going to hit much, which is why you're meant to equip them with automatic weapons and use them to suppress the enemy so that your lethal mercs can flank them. Let me guess, you bunch up your mercs in a spiffy little turtle-ball, then take max-aim potshots beyond gun range at the enemies. Combat takes ages, you get wounded a lot and it's really frustrating and annoying?

I have the same advice to you as the Requiem fanboys tell to everyone who complains about the difficult of that mod: GIT GUD.

You haven't seen pain until you try a night mission with enemy outnumbering you and having three elites with high level NVGs seeing your mercs far beyond visual range, throwing flares at you so their red-shirt comrades can spot you easily as well, using aimed burst fire to one-shot your mercs and tear gas grenades to scatter you. That kind of shit just doesn't happen in any other game or mod in this genre.

Is the ai now able to fully use attachments on weapons? They never were even in Vanilla and this is one of the things that made the reliance on attachments in the 1.13 such a balance breaker in the players favor. Haven't really played a new version of the 1.13 in close to 10 years so I'm kind of curious if they ever managed to fix that. The prevailing trend when I finally decided to stop fooling with newer versions was to flood the mod with new features and not give a rat's ass about game balance. You'd think 10 years might be enough to iron out at least some of these deal breaking exploits.

 

[GarfunkeL]

It got pretty unbalanced at some point for sure. I haven't played the latest version too much, still in fairly early part of the game but the AI finally does both suppressive fire and aimed burst fire. They are now able to call down mortar fire on you as well.

The CTH is just too low. Trying any fancy tactics results in tears more often than not, even with the best IMP setup and the best weapons.

Wat.

The CTH is low in the beginning because you have crap guns and poor skills. If you make an IMP with 90 Marksmanship equipped with the starting PDW-SMG, you will get good results from the start.

 

[Excidium II]

I have the same advice to you as the Requiem fanboys tell to everyone who complains about the difficult of that mod: GIT GUD.

Rock Paper Scissors Skyrim Edition is the last thing I'd imagine to be mentioned on this thread but there it is.

 

[KazikluBey]

Earlier this year I played through JA2 1.12 for the first time, actually. Shortly thereafter I installed 1.13 (most recent version) and I was still somewhat overwhelmed by all the ... stuff ... that it adds. And not just the stuff but also the sometimes limited information available, requiring a rummaging through the XML explorer or just trial and error. The new inventory system is pretty neat, but at first there's no easy way to tell which pieces are thigh-rig, thigh-rig-or-slot-into-vest or slot-into-thigh-rig-or-vest and which thigh rigs or vests have what optional open slots. And which items fit in what quantities into tiny general, small general, medium general and document pockets and why regular grenades fit into flashbang pockets but not the other way around. And suddenly I met a tank right after capturing a second city, with no access to tank-destroying equipment, and the mercs were more stingy about their team mates and picky about prolonging their contracts and many of the weapons could use a greater differentiation, especially in NCTH where there's more room for such and suddenly I found myself looking through the source code.

Anyway, I like 1.13, but it's like you actually need to mod it to your liking and if you don't know what is your liking, well... The defaults aren't always perfectly sane, as I think quite a few of the developers don't bother playing stock 1.13 anyway.

Oh, and on the topic of 1.12 vs 1.13. Well, lots of things like the AI is better in 1.13, they don't really bother flanking in 1.12 where it's frequently easy to just set up a firing lane and mow down anyone who comes running toward you. But I thought 1.12 was a very enjoyable experience in its own right, though, and it's most certainly not a "frustrating mess" or how you described 1.13.

Is the ai now able to fully use attachments on weapons? They never were even in Vanilla and this is one of the things that made the reliance on attachments in the 1.13 such a balance breaker in the players favor. Haven't really played a new version of the 1.13 in close to 10 years so I'm kind of curious if they ever managed to fix that. The prevailing trend when I finally decided to stop fooling with newer versions was to flood the mod with new features and not give a rat's ass about game balance. You'd think 10 years might be enough to iron out at least some of these deal breaking exploits.

Not sure what you mean with "fully use". In 1.12 a laser sight for example just adds a flat +20% CTH, a scope reduces effective sight range in the CTH calculation for each aiming level and so on. Nothing should depend on the user (aside from bipod prone bonus) so long as they're on the weapon, do they not get the benefit of them like the player does?

 

[Khor1255]

In the vanilla game usually the ai would either use the attachment on his weapon (think under slung grenade launcher) or the 'normal' weapon but never both. When they ran out of grenades they just stopped using the weapon. I actually had a red shirt with an assault rifle charge and try to attack me hand to hand when he still had bullets in his weapon. It seemed the ai could only recognize one weapon at a time and advances from stuff like scopes seemed non existent. This was confirmed by some of the original coders of the 1.13 while they were browsing through the code and they always wanted to fix that.

I was curious if they ever did because at the time I stopped playing the new features only benefited the player and this made gameplay way less enjoyable than before.

 

[veevoir]

You can disable pretty much every 1.13 feature you don't like. There's no reason not to use it unless you are a purist.

It adds so much that at least 1 purist playthrough beforehand is encouraged. 1.13 pretty much can make JA2 into a different game.

 

[Norfleet]

A different, BETTER game, where I get to KILL PEOPLE and TAKE THEIR STUFF.
It annoyed the shit out of me in the vanilla game that I had to go to ridiculous lengths just to take someone's stuff, instead of simply killing him and taking his stuff.
Kill people. Take their stuff. That's the way it should be.

 

[KazikluBey]

Drop-all is pretty annoying I think, there's too much stuff to clean up.

 

[Grimwulf]

Yes, because we all play games for bullshit clutter errr, stuff...