Decline J_C fails his Codex check...again - Betrayal at Krondor is the best RPG ever, but I'm not feeling it

[J_C]

Just a quick example for the poor documentation of the game:
Found a tuning fork. The description doesn't say too much about it, the manual nothing at all. But it turns out, if you use them in a fight agains trolls, they run away. Yeah, figure that out by yourself.
Another: Found a spell shop in a village, with around a dozen spells. Some of them are explained in the manual, but most of them are not. And you can't check the spell discription until you buy it, right clicking on it in the shop doesn't help. So you can buy them for hundreds of gold, just to figure out that you don't need after that. Sure, I can look them up online, but still...

 

[Darth Roxor]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

 

[octavius]

I do kind of agree on some of the criticism on the OP, at least partly. A quest journal would be asking too much, but I wish there was a way to make notes in-game.

Make screenshots. Press CTRL-F5 every time there is something on the screen you need to remember. After a while it becomes second nature. When I complete BaK I had 1487 screenshots in the Captures folder.

 

[ghostdog]

I am in chapter 3 of BaK now and was not particularly impressed with the story so far, but reading up on that LP (only the parts I already played) I can not help but admit that the blame is on me. There is a huge number of details and subtleties to the story that I just completely and utterly missed. I guess I really gotta pay much more attention to everything from now on.

I too missed a lot of that stuff in my first playthrough. You need multiple playthroughs, and to pay close attention to everything, to spot all these details. Much of the narrative brilliance is so subtle that you can easily miss it and maybe that can also be considered a negative point, in a way... BUT, Neal certainly deserves all the praise he gets about his writing in BAK.

 

[J_C]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

Meh, I've already journed through the kingdom, and nobody told me. Maybe there is a hidden character somewhere, but I won't lawn-mow every inch of the map with this shitty control scheme.

Anyway if there is only one or two guys in a huge game like this, who tells you these stuff, that is still poor documentation.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

someone somewhere might

Provided that amongst the numerous NPC in this huge world you actually meet this one certain someone somewhere at some point to attain this very vital piece of information.

 

[SCO]

I am in chapter 3 of BaK now and was not particularly impressed with the story so far, but reading up on that LP (only the parts I already played) I can not help but admit that the blame is on me. There is a huge number of details and subtleties to the story that I just completely and utterly missed. I guess I really gotta pay much more attention to everything from now on.

I too missed a lot of that stuff in my first playthrough. You need multiple playthroughs, and to pay close attention to everything, to spot all these details. Much of the narrative brilliance is so subtle that you can easily miss it and maybe that can also be considered a negative point, in a way... BUT, Neal certainly deserves all the praise he gets about his writing in BAK.

Nonsense, this is what makes the game special, it doesn't actively treat you like a 8 year old like 96% of other games that are too busy condescending the player and npcs.

 

[Boleskine]

I like that BaK doesn't have an in-game journal. Playing RPGs and adventures was more enjoyable when you had to take your own notes. The game expected the player to pay more attention.

Over a period of 20 years we went from this:

Spoiler

to this:

Spoiler

to this:

Spoiler

 

[J_C]

I like that BaK doesn't have an in-game journal. Playing RPGs and adventures was more enjoyable when you had to take your own notes. The game expected the player to pay more attention.

Over a period of 20 years we went from this:

Spoiler

to this:

Spoiler

to this:

Spoiler

Oh, the good old "taking notes is so hardcore" argument. Let me quote myself from earlier:

magine this: you play with BaK. You hear that you have to find Frankley in Eegley (actual quest in Bak). So what do I do, I wrote a note in front of me, to find Frankley in Eegley.

Now if the game had a journal, the Find Frankley in Eegley note would be automatically added to your journal. You get the same result either way, you don't have to do any more brain work. You just lose time, and it adds unconvenience because you have to put down the game each time to write something up.

Please explain me why is writing down a quest on a piece of paper is superior to an automatic journal, where the same information is added to the journal automatically. If it is the act of writing you like, maybe you should start a book.

Having an ingame journal doesn't mean that I don't pay attention, but I can't remember everything the NPCs say.

 

[octavius]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

Meh, I've already journed through the kingdom, and nobody told me. Maybe there is a hidden character somewhere, but I won't lawn-mow every inch of the map with this shitty control scheme.

Anyway if there is only one or two guys in a huge game like this, who tells you these stuff, that is still poor documentation.

Are you still in Chapter 1? Unless you play OCD style ou are not really supposed to encounter those trolls in Chapter 1, but in a later chapter you'll learn how to use that tuning fork before encountering the trolls.

 

[J_C]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

Meh, I've already journed through the kingdom, and nobody told me. Maybe there is a hidden character somewhere, but I won't lawn-mow every inch of the map with this shitty control scheme.

Anyway if there is only one or two guys in a huge game like this, who tells you these stuff, that is still poor documentation.

Are you still in Chapter 1? Unless you play OCD style ou are not really supposed to encounter those trolls in Chapter 1, but in a later chapter you'll learn how to use that tuning fork before encountering the trolls.

Well, I'm playing OCD and discover the whole kingdom in Chapter 1.

 

[NotAGolfer]

Please explain me why is writing down a quest on a piece of paper is superior to an automatic journal, where the same information is added to the journal automatically. If it is the act of writing you like, maybe you should start a book.

Having an ingame journal doesn't mean that I don't pay attention, but I can't remember everything the NPCs say.

I'd be okay with a journal listing the basic sidequests and main quest goals (but only very basic keynotes, like in Skyrim for instance - with the difference being that in BaK there's actually more to these quests than those few keynotes, you just have to figure that out by yourself).
In a game like this it wouldn't take away much from the experience. Most of the NPCs are scheming bastards and what's told and what's actually happening are two very different things. A basic journal wouldn't change that, as long as it refrains from giving hints to what's happening behind the curtains.
Keeping track of those few sidequests that pop up is very simple anyway (so simple in fact that I have to ask if you're handicapped in some way, J_C) so an in game journal with them wouldn't make much of a difference. The non handicapped people can just ignore it I guess.

 

[Darth Roxor]

such bad documentation!!!!

 

[SausageInYourFace]

So where exactly are you supposed to find out how to use the tuning fork?

I am in chapter 3 and I had to consult two walkthroughs, one does not mention where to get this information and just states how to use it and one says that the information is actually not in the game and the guy is puzzled how anybody is supposed to find this out.

 

[Gozma]

You are gonna be butthurt when characters you have grinded to hell disappear between chapters

 

[J_C]

You are gonna be butthurt when characters you have grinded to hell disappear between chapters

I know this is going to happen. I've been in Chapter 2 in a previous game, but not all characters will disappear, so having the others at a higher level will come in handy I assume.

Keeping track of those few sidequests that pop up is very simple anyway (so simple in fact that I have to ask if you're handicapped in some way, J_C) so an in game journal with them wouldn't make much of a difference. The non handicapped people can just ignore it I guess.

Ha ha, very funny. The key is convenience, not that I can't write the quests down. But putting the game down, maybe alt-tabbing to an excel sheet everytime you hear a rumor from an NPC is just cumbersome. It doesn't add anything to the game, just inconvencience.

 

[Sceptic]

This whole business about the "inconvenience" of having to take down fucking notes in a CRPG that is more than 20 years old is perhaps the most inane thing I have ever read on the 'dex since Andhaira's infamous Fallout thread.

How the fuck do you people tie your shoelaces every morning.

 

[J_C]

How the fuck do you people tie your shoelaces every morning.

Umm, what does this have to with anything? It is not about me not being able to take notes. It's about taking notes manually vs the game writing the same things in a journal has no difference whatsoever.

 

[SCO]

I didn't take notes in krondor. Is it so hard to keep in your medium term memory some details about 1-5 quests?
A: only if you're a next-gen gamer

 

[J_C]

I didn't take notes in krondor. Is it so hard to keep in your medium term memory some details about 1-5 quests?
A: only if you're a next-gen gamer

Wait, so you have to take notes in this game, or not? Because some said that you have to, but now you say that you don't. I'm confused.

And to reply to your question. Yes, I have bad memory. Not because I'm a next gen gamer, but because that's how I am in life. Sorry if I can't keep these quests in my memory for weeks, because having no time, that's how long it takes to finish the game for me.

Also, it is not just about sidequest, there are a lot of little hints, hidden stuff you can find, and have to keep notes of.

 

[Johannes]

To take notes or not, depends on how long periods you go without playing, how gud your brian is, and how much you care to carefully sort shit out or are ok with some stumbling around.

FFS if I could manage the assassin hideout quest and all with shitty english as a 10?-year old, so can you now.

 

[Mrowak]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

Meh, I've already journed through the kingdom, and nobody told me. Maybe there is a hidden character somewhere, but I won't lawn-mow every inch of the map with this shitty control scheme.

Anyway if there is only one or two guys in a huge game like this, who tells you these stuff, that is still poor documentation.

Japierdolę.

No! What you don't understand J_C is the basic principle of lorebuilding - some stuff should not be explained outright. Especially stuff, that is supposed to be mystical, folklorish, obscure, secreted by few professionals or lost in the annals of history. The example you provided is exactly the piece like that - something which is not common knowledge, but something you learn from a) experimentation, b) exploration, c) applying what you learned into practice.

Oh, how I long for another game like BaK, where you actually had reasons to roam the world, talk with people, read rare books of yore just to learn new tricks and actual gameplay machanics that could impact the way you played. These days the only reason to explore seems to be getting phawt slightly less shit loot than you found in the previous area.

 

[J_C]

have you considered that perhaps someone somewhere might tell you about a tuning fork's secret ability of scaring away trorrs and that putting it in the manual is not in fact a problem of "documentation"

not to mention it isn't even mandatory to use the fork on them since they can be killed conventionally

Meh, I've already journed through the kingdom, and nobody told me. Maybe there is a hidden character somewhere, but I won't lawn-mow every inch of the map with this shitty control scheme.

Anyway if there is only one or two guys in a huge game like this, who tells you these stuff, that is still poor documentation.

Japierdolę.

No! What you don't understand J_C is the basic principle of lorebuilding - some stuff should not be explained outright. Especially stuff, that is supposed to be mystical, folklorish, obscure, secreted by few professionals or lost in the annals of history. The example you provided is exactly the piece like that - something which is not common knowledge, but something you learn from a) experimentation, b) exploration, c) applying what you learned into practice.

Oh, how I long for another game like BaK, where you actually had reasons to roam the world, talk with people, read rare books of yore just to learn new tricks and actual gameplay machanics that could impact the way you played. These days the only reason to explore seems to be getting phawt slightly less shit loot than you found in the previous area.

That's actually cool, but I'm curious if things like the tuning fork, or the purpose of the 3 dozens spells are really explained by anyone in the game. I have my doubts. So the only thing that remains - as you said - is experimentation. But should I really start to use the tuning fork on every creature, every NPC, at every city, until finally something happens? That is fun for somebody?

 

[Xorazm]

How the fuck do you people tie your shoelaces every morning.

Umm, what does this have to with anything? It is not about me not being able to take notes. It's about taking notes manually vs the game writing the same things in a journal has no difference whatsoever.

I think that this is a fair point, in that there are plenty of places it would have been nice to have a journal. I'm a diehard BaK fanboy but I can see definitely how it would frustrating and perhaps overwhelming to keep track of the sheer density of information the game throws at you. Hell, I fired it up for the first time in years as a result of these posts it wasn't long before I was muttering "....who the fuck is this guy and why the fuck is he important...?

At the same time, though, making this point is a bit like faulting the game for not having proper WASD support, dedicated quicksave and quickload function keys, mouselook, etc. These are all improvements that made games more streamlined, yes, and in retrospect they're obvious quality of life improvement but this game came out in 1993 fer chrissakes. It's not like dedicated in-game journals keeping notes for you was a widely accepted industry practice and the devs decided to turn their nose up at it in order to keep their game ultra-hardcore. It just wasn't something people had really thought of yet or had figured out how to do well (I remember Morrowind's journal being an absolute clusterfuck that patches had to rescue - even a decade later they still hadn't really nailed the concept down, and BaK is arguably much, much denser than Morrowind, particularly given that NPCS in BaK straight up lie to you).

I admit that it's hard to go back to a journal-less period once you've grown accustomed to the modern convenience but I don't know if it's entirely fair to fault the game for a convenience that took some time to become standardized. More importantly, I'm not even sure how a journal would _work_ in BaK, given the lengths the game goes to in order to establish a consistent tone where everything has a place in-universe. Further, the game communicates so much through innuendo and nuance which a journal could easily destroy. You'd have to have a journal written in Locklear's own particular style for some chapters, written by James in others and written by Owyn/Gorath in others. Would the journal make the connection between the missing ruby in Chapter 1 and the increased moredhel activity? Between the missing guild seals and Navon du Sandau? Maybe. These things could be done in some way, I suppose, but keep in mind that with a game like this it's a little more complicated than just patching in a modern style questlog with headers for "Main Quest" and "Side Quest." That sort of thing would ruin the game that BaK is, because there's just not many games are that are what BaK is.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that what you have on your hands is quite possibly the most ambitious narrative ever attempted in a game, running on 1993 technology. It worked well enough for some dedicated people to penetrate and grasp, but the sheer density of it is the reason why it's beloved more as a cult classic than a widely adored masterpiece. Unlike a lot of products of its era, what makes it great is utterly timeless and it _does_ reward the effort put into it, but it's definitely a peculiar beast. It makes few of the concessions that we're used to, but at the same time it reaches for far more than we're used to as well.

 

[Mrowak]

That's actually cool, but I'm curious if things like the tuning fork, or the purpose of the 3 dozens spells are really explained by anyone in the game. I have my doubts. So the only thing that remains - as you said - is experimentation. But should I really start to use the tuning fork on every creature, every NPC, at every city, until finally something happens? That is fun for somebody?

No, the fun part is when it clicks together. When you realize that that obscure piece of lore about trolls being susceptible to high pitch sounds you found in the book about tactics in Sarth and that ramblings of an old war veteran about scaring trolls shitless by noise suddenly make sense in the gameworld, and there are actually tools given to your disposal, that you can use.

What you described is typical lazy gamist behaviour of using everything on everything, because, hey it's a game, and that item is supposed to do something, right?

J_C, you are not expected to be serviced with explanation to everything on a silver platter. Heck, you are not expected to find out all secrets during one playthrough (I found out the trick about tunning fork on my fourth run). It's just important that it's there and it makes sense, because the creators accounted for giving it the context. It's called lore and it's principal thing in worldbuilding.