Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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It is happening again: New Twin Peaks By David Lynch And Mark Frost!

Discussion in 'Codex Public Library' started by Astral Rag, Oct 6, 2014.

  1. Vibalist Arcane

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    He's already been like this for almost the entire season.
     
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  2. skacky Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    It's interesting to note that in the very first scene with ???????, Cooper doesn't have his FBI pin while he has it in the Black Lodge. That means that the opening scene takes place after the switcheroo with Dougie Jones since he doesn't have the FBI pin when he comes out of the outlet.
     
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  3. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    First Deadwood wasn't renewed for the 4th season it needed and deserved, then Rome was canned early to make way for Gayme of Thrones, and now this.

    Truly, there is no justice in this world.
     
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  4. Make America Great Again Multidirectional Arcane

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    It sure seems that way at this point. I started making my peace with it after he got laid and remained the same. Figured if THAT didn't wake him up than nothing probably will. Lynch is being downright cruel to TP fans. Good thing I'm a fan of his so I'm just glad to get more stuff to watch from him, because I thought he'd never make anything again after Inland Empire. I can't imagine what a torture this must be for people are Twin Peaks fans but don't actually like Lynch that much.
     
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  5. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    I don't understand why seemingly random shit is being thrown into the show this late in the game. We know how many episodes were greenlit (18), we're on number 13 now, and at least a third of that episode was spent on a club of startlingly clean-cut tough guys in an unusually clean warehouse who choose their leader via arm-wrestling contest. That whole sequence played like a gritty comic book issue.

    Indeed, it seems that most of the show takes place anywhere but Twin Peaks and with as little of the original cast as possible. The one member of the cast we do get on the regular plays both an imbecile and a character we only saw in the last minute of the last episode of the original series, and not FBI Agent Dale Cooper, who was a unique protagonist somehow combining good-natured cheerfulness, a keen wit, sophistication and manliness in one trim package.

    It's one thing not to know what's going on in a Lynch production; that's normal. This however is schizophrenia of a whole different stripe.
     
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  6. Make America Great Again Multidirectional Arcane

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    It feels more like a big collection of Lynch's short movies than actual continuation of Twin Peaks. A lot of is great though and I really liked the arm wrestling gang. Another example is the beeping fat lady in the car with a vomiting zombie girl. I laughed my ass off at that bit but I certainly don't expect it to be in any way related to main story (if there even really is a main story in this) nor do I think there will be any follow up to that. Fuck it, I'm enjoying the ride but I don't expect to view this as a proper follow up to original series once it's over. I can only hope this isn't actually a limited series. On the other hand, I did expect it to be load of crap when it was just announced so this is a way better deal than that at least. For all I know, if they actually tried to recreate the feel of original series with most of the original characters intact it might've actually turned out to be crap.
     
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  7. Make America Great Again Latro Arcane

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    I've said this many times, and I will say it again, if Coop came back there would be nothing for him to do. Most of the original TP cast is dead, after 14-15 episodes the only impetus for the story is "BOB is released and misc. spirits are headed for TP for some sort of world-ending finale". If Cooper had come back since...episode 2, what exactly would there be for him to do? S3 would have to be completely re-written, and the Doppel-Coop plot-line would have to be resolved nearly immediately (which would be a huge mistake, he's an awesome character). Gordon Cole/Rosenfield/Diana mystery plot would probably be completely done away with, etc etc.

    Frost only wrote for this when it was a 9-episode arc, so all that mundane shit conversations going on between the TP cast is all him. If you really need a feel for what Frost's twin peaks is like, it's dale cooper and the TP gang stumbling across the ancient lodge symbol back in S2 while the viewer dozes off because TP without Lynch is dull as hell. Mysteriously, this is what people want as long as they get Cooper back.
     
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  8. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    Keep on saying that if you like, but then you ought to explain why you believe that Coop wandering around as an imbecilic zombie lucking into hard-to-swallow, bizarre plot dead-ends for literal hours of screen time is a superior alternative. We essentially watch him eat and drink while a gangland-themed financial conspiracy unravels around him. I would much rather watch actual Coop drink coffee, eat donuts, and actively pursue a similar case unrelated to the Palmer murder or the Black Lodge in the interim.

    In my view, you've come up with some highly specific reasoning custom-tailored to explain why Coop can't return, propped up with empty logic.

    They would have written him something to do. Furthermore there are plenty of ways to write the doppelganger scenario such that it isn't resolved immediately.

    It's as if you're asking me how I propose to change things significantly without rewriting anything at all. Yeah, it would have to be written differently. Writing is the literal fabric of the thing.

    Ah, here it is: "If you enjoy Cooper and prefer his character to a doddering imbecile, you're dumb and you only like the shitty parts of Twin Peaks written by the crappier guy."

    Suck my cock, you self-important retard. I expect Lynch fans to think they're smarter than everyone else (I should know, I am one and I've known a few), but you're starting to grow a stack of fedoras on your head over there.
     
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  9. Make America Great Again Latro Arcane

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    keep your dick away from me!!!

    sorry Blaine, but I legitimately enjoy the adventures of "Dougie Jones", the slow-burn mystery/detective arc of Gordon Cole and Albert Rosenfield and the life of a Black Lodge Doppelganger. It is outright superior to the majority of S2 and THE MYSTERY OF THE LODGES isn't that very interesting on its own. TP itself isn't that very interesting either when most of its inhabitants are literally dead after 25 years and you must read the end of their arcs in apocrypha like the Frost novels.

    Why not just ask for a new series then? Would you really dislike the idea of a new Lynch series with MacLachlan?
     
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  10. Make America Great Again Latro Arcane

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    You also have to consider that Coop was invested into a buddy-comedy with Harry and a love interest with Annie. Both characters and actors IRL are either dead or unavailable. Who would Coop actually talk to? Cole and Rosenfield for 18 episodes? The Brennans are only funny every few episodes, not every episode. Hawk is good enough on his own as a solo investigator (along with Frank Truman). I'm sorry, but Lynch is way too artistic/intelligent to go with the obvious here.
     
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  11. TorontRayne Savant

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    That being said it could work. Take Bobby, Old Man Truman, Andy, and Hawk then throw in Agent Cooper to solve some Scooby Doo mystery the last episode and I would call it good.
     
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  12. skacky Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    The sound design this episode was out of this world. Just absolutely insane, especially during Cole's dream. Lynch deserves an Emmy for his sound editing, at least for this episode. Never heard anything remotely like this on TV. This episode was a real powerhouse.
    We finally have a name for ??????? too.
     
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  13. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    The entirety of Dougie's screen time is spent staring off into the distance, eating various foods, drinking coffee, being led around by the arm, and occasionally repeating snatches of what people say to him. I've spent solid hours doing nothing but watch this gimmick, and it got old eight episodes ago.

    The gangster/conspiracy plot is just plain absurd and not believable in any way. It might as well be a cartoon. The gangsters are ridiculous caricatures, the pink dress girls are jarringly forced and unrealistic, and Battling Bud, Dougie's wife, and the cops behave as though they live in alternate dimensions (not unusual for a Lynch production, but this time not in a particularly good way).

    As for the doppelganger, he's a relatively straightforward invincible sociopathic badass. He was fun at first, but Anton Shigur he ain't.

    So where we disagree, it seems, is that you like a bunch of things I think are utter shit. I didn't mind a lot of it for the first 5-6 episodes, was in fact intrigued by it and found some of the highlights of "Dougie's" behavior and unique situation (Mr. Jackpots' "Hell-ooo-oooo" etc.) extremely unique and interesting; but as time has worn on and the episode count has doubled, I haven't seen any real payoff for any of it and it just drags on pointlessly.

    Yes, clearly Leland, Sarah, Ed, Nadine, Dr. Jacoby, Lucy, Andy, Bobby, James, Shelley, Norma, Hawk, Log Lady, Audrey, Benjamin, Jerry, Cooper, Albert, Gordon, and Mike weren't enough to work with. That's actually the vast majority of the cast who had significant screen time in the originals. Sheriff Truman is the most profound absence. The rest of the missing folks were mainly bit parts.

    Literally nothing we could have done with those few remaining characters, though. Couldn't possibly have been done.

    Seems to me you might be a tad worshipful of Lynch and, as I said before, looking for reasons to justify some pretty obviously questionable choices.
     
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  14. Ivan Arcane

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    Turning Cooper into a holy fool is interesting, considering how noble Cooper was to begin with. I expect something terrible to happen to him, like in Dostoevsky's The Idiot.

    It's crazy how arresting this series is. It's not often that a show captivates me so much by just how authentic it is. Also, the soundscape was particularly great in this episode.

    The highlight for me we as the drunk and eyeless woman seemingly cummuning. The sound reminded me of the clickers from Last of Us.
     
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  15. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    It was interesting for four or five episodes. If anyone can offer a defensible argument for running 10+ episodes of the exact same limited shtick, I'm all ears.

    This thread is coming along nicely. We've progressed to name-dropping distinguished authors and taking the time to bold the title of a console game, while not even managing to render it properly. Lynch's ability to cause people to become full of themselves hasn't diminished one bit over the decades.

    Lynch's way of presenting his vision remains unique and captivating, yes. Atmosphere is important to me, and his is one of a kind. No argument on that front, but the actual substance of the show is lacking.
     
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  16. Make America Great Again Latro Arcane

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    Absolutely. It is not a shtick, Dougie Jones is a real character. One of the biggest tip-offs I've had that we will not see Coop until the finale, is an interview with Kyle MacLachlan where he provides commentary about the character "Dougie Jones". Not Coop-as-Dougie, or retardo-Coop, the character is in fact, Dougie Jones, and written as such. Cooper is as integral to the "White Lodge" or the "forces of good" as Laura Palmer or the Giant/Fire-man. He cannot appear just yet, because the final confrontation is still approaching. He is a mythical character in the series, and his appearance is as messianic as the Giant birthing angelic Laura Palmer as a reaction to the birth of BOB. Dougie Jones as "corrupted" (the original simulacrum) or "idiot" Dale Cooper is extraordinarily similar to the dichotomy of the corrupted sexual Laura Palmer, and the angelic Palmer we see in FWWM or S3 or the girl the town wept over in S1.

    As an aside, I have ONLY seen TP. I have never seen anything else Lynch has done, besides dumbland (very funny) or his music (which is either meh or really good). Why? I'm lazy.

    I always make a point to side with the artist's vision, not what the audience wants, and to judge the work on those merits alone.
     
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  17. Make America Great Again Melan Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    Dougie is not the hero we wanted, but the hero we deserve. :M

    Also, damn fine episode.
     
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  18. Gondolin Arcane

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    An interesting phrase. I would've called him an "innocent", just like Andy. Which is probably why Andy was chosen by The Giant, instead of Hawk or Truman.
     
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  19. TorontRayne Savant

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    This is what I am leaning towards. The simple mind does not question nearly as much. They just do what they need to do.
     
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  20. skacky Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    That, and Andy came and comforted Naido without any questions when they saw her lying on the ground. It's no coincidence the Fireman showed Andy him holding Naido's hand. Andy is just a very good, innocent human being. Remember how he breaks down in tears twice in the pilot episode, first when he's asked to take pictures of Laura's body, and then when they found the murder site? He's also the only one besides Windom Earle to figure out that the Owl Cave etching is a map to the Black Lodge. Andy looks to be far more attuned to the whole Lodge stuff than we're led to believe.
     
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  21. Make America Great Again Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor

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    Supposing I acknowledge the merit in your justifications for why we ought to spend 17 episodes watching a brainless imbecile dodder around, the fact remains that I'm nonetheless spending hours watching a brainless imbecile dodder around.

    Arguing the case for artistic integrity, high-minded philosophical concepts, potential payoffs down the line, and such like is fine and dandy—but if the cost of it all is large portions of each episode's screen time spent essentially watching paint dry, then my vehement argument is that delivering those concepts and payoffs should have been done in a different way. Television is a particular format, after all. Disregarding structure, substance, and pacing in the service of "artistic vision" is quite simply poor showmanship.

    I've seen every film and series Lynch has ever made, and discussed most of them at length with my best friend Dave, who is a bona fide UVA-graduated philosopher. He's a very smart man, and also the only person I've personally met in my entire life who can see a knock-down, drag-out argument through to the end—even if it takes hours or multiple sessions spanning months or years—without growing resentful the way people tend to do if you even begin to argue with them about anything. There are many reasons I value his friendship, but that's a big one.

    Point A: Don't necessarily expect a huge, profound payoff at the end of this. Rare is the Lynch film (or series) that rewards you with a moment of epiphany or supreme resolution and satisfaction at the end. Usually they end ambiguously or taper off into surreal nonsense, which is part of the reason why people spend thousands of hours trying to out-arrogant each other interpreting the (snort) profound truths hidden in his works.

    Point B: I don't mind bizarre, drawn-out meanderings through the surreal, but this new season of Twin Peaks is 18 episodes long and the level of meandering achieved has finally tried even my patience. It's one thing in a 2-3 hour movie, but this is just absurd.
     
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  22. TorontRayne Savant

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    You say this like we haven't been receiving bombshell after bombshell each episode. It just hasn't been what some of the fans wanted. They wanted Agent Cooper running around saying Damn Good Coffee like his old self not a continuation of Season Two's cliffhanger which is what we are getting. I still hate the fucking music at the end so trust me I get the plodding along watching characters you might not care about do seemingly pointless things, but if people had it their way Dougie would not have had some of these amazing scenes recently, we would not have had Episode 8, Fire Walk With Me, and these very fans who are supposed to care so much about the show are the reason it failed in the first place due to people wanting the mystery of Laura Palmer's death wrapped up.

    Them tracking down the real Cooper is the most engaging part of the whole fucking show right now. People actually want the character back even though at this point Sonny Jim might lose his Dad if that happens. Almost feels like Lynch is saying "If you get Cooper back he loses his happiness in life" but of course I might be reading too much into it. The last couple of episodes have been eye opening to say the least. I just keep hearing crying about Cooper while I sit and marvel at seeing more of other characters I now care about.
     
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  23. skacky Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I'm pretty apprehensive of Janey-E's reaction to Cooper regaining his mind. How will she react? And yes, what about Sonny Jim? I'm one of those who really enjoy the retardo Cooper scenes, I find them both hilarious and depressing at the same time, what with Cooper being stuck like this.
     
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  24. TorontRayne Savant

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    Don't get me wrong he has grated my nerves a couple times, then he does shit like stare at the American Flag with glimmers of Cooper shining through and it gets me so excited. Few shows manage to do that without some kind of artificial bullshit. When that poison was put in his coffee? I got nervous even though I knew that was unlikely to be the way it happened. The way he disarms his opponents with his behavior is great to watch every single time. Besides we HAVE gotten Cooper in the beginning, through flashbacks, bits of pieces of him in both the doubles...

    I just don't see how people wanted this to go down, but I am trying to work my way through it. It needed to take place 25 years later so it needed to at least go down like it did the first few episodes. They could have skipped the Dougie subplot and just left Cooper stuck in the Red Room while Evil Cooper ran amok. That would have left out Sonny Jim, Jane, and the new Diane half sister revelation, Vegas, MISTER JACKPOT....

    We would have gotten Matthew Lillard and the Ruth Davenport murder with Major Briggs. Of course they could have thrown some other stuff in there, but just working with what we have. Vegas might have been a recent addition to the script when they bumped the episodes.
     
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  25. Make America Great Again Kz3r0 Arcane

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    Welcome to Lynch's Magical Mistery Theatre
    Nope, he is an elemental like Bob, the Giant etc.
    Here the finale:
    Bob and Dougie sitting in the lodge sipping coffee nodding knowingly to each other, then a valzer with a distorted tempo start playing and the final scene it is them dancing into the stars.
     
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