Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Depends what you didn't like about it. Combat is better, stealth is better, everything is more tight, polished and deep, except the plot and soundtrack.

Pages upon pages of consistent codexer praise. With such quotes as "turns an excellent game into a masterful one" and "it's the definitive Deus Ex experience". But if you never liked Deus Ex because you don't like ARPGs or cyberpunk games then there's no helping (you :P).
Thanks I'm gonna try that. I like ARPGs, System Shock is one of the best games I ever played, but something about Deus Ex kept me away. I'll try again.

p.s. Are the new games good? Human Revolution or something and some other one. I assumed they would be like the originals only dumbed down and shit, like all reboots.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,160
^ You have shit taste, what do you care?

See: Deus Ex w/GMDX

Hardly. And even if that was the case, we are talking about something that was added to the final product after so many years of work? I suppose in theory if Looking Glass was allowed to work on their games for an indefinite amount of time they might produce the perfect "Immersive Sim" but the reality is quite different. If you want to perfect a certain gameplay element you have to narrow your scope because there will always be issues with limited resources or time.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
He's also conveniently ignoring the fact that, much like in other fields of art, improving a single component leads to tradeoffs in others. For example, Deus Ex simply can't provide as intense action or unique fights that a full on shooter can, since it has to accomodate stealth players. On the flip side, making the AI more aggressive to make combat more intense compromises how well the stealth works.

But no, got to drop in to insult people and plug your mod even after handling the situation poorly and pissing almost everyone off.
 
Last edited:

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,160
Well, typical modders gonna typical. I guess drama is the fuel that keeps them going. Not to say i'm ungrateful for the work they do but i don't see the point in getting into those kind of shitstorms.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,227
Deus Ex simply can't provide as intense action or unique fights that a full on shooter can, since it has to accomodate stealth players. On the flip side, making the AI more aggressive to make combat more intense compromises how well the stealth works.

Fitting of a stalker to repeat a statement I've made in the past back at me as if it were your own unique insights.

But no, got to drop in to insult people

You. I dropped in to insult you. Why the fuck are you STILL attempting to critique and police my behavior despite following me around like a butthurt weirdo ranting inane nonsense at me for a year? It boggles the mind.

But fear not, as you've accomplished something. Henceforth I will be more professional and reserved.
 

bloodlover

Arcane
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
2,039
The downgrade would have come eventually so idk if it really matters where it came from. Stealth is a niche genre and the sales from such a pure game will never be satisfactory for today's market.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
17,043
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Highly entertaining thread.

bDnPcxV.gif
 

gromit

Arcane
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
2,771
Location
Gentrification Station
Hitman involves tons of trial and error, because at the end of the day it's a puzzle game obfuscated with (and complicated by) death and travel time
Thief can involve lots of trial and error, but you stand a reasonable chance of making it through any level your first try, just because the underlying gameplay allows adaptation inherently

ftfy. Really surprised by all the Thief love here.
ftfy. Really surprised by your inability to understand that "agency" is maybe the only thing that nearly consistently binds the hivemind tastes together, even with wildly different priorities for it, and definitions of it.

Hitman is pretty well loved around here, but-and-because it is what it is: an idiosyncratic place with a nice menu and great rotating specials. Yet here you are, telling us you don't know why we like cooking because "home kitchens are all just, like, dead things and metal, so, whatever, you just pop a can of Spaghetti-O's into the microwave, and it's not nearly as good as the carbonara up the street."

Well, you're right, it isn't...
 

Icewater

Artisanal Shitposting™
Patron
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
1,952
Location
Freedomland
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
:salute:

There are many games out there possibly better in a single or maybe a few aspects, but none that I can think of as all-around well executed as Thief. I'd bundle the two original games together and place them squarely at the top of my list.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
6,165
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Thief is the most overrated Immersive Sim and was a compromise with the goal of funding Ultima Underworld 3 because their better games were not selling. Underworld series, System Shock series and Deus Ex are far better.

Thief is the most elegant game to date. System Shock or Deus Ex don't hold a candle to that piece of Art.

:hmmm:

I've never played Thief, but System Shock 2 and the original Deus Ex are legendary games, undimmed in glory until the breaking of the world.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,227
All that is worthy in this world is Thief. All hail Thief, the medieval bow shooter with no direction for much of development. All hail Stephen Russell's sexy raspy man chords *masturbates furiously*. System Shock? Ultima Underworld? Immersive Sim? Lol, what's that? Go kill urself faggot, even if you think Thief's a good game and possibly the best stealth game of all time despite the decline YOU DO NOT BASH MY TOY/RELIGION.
 

tormund

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,282
Location
Penetrating the underrail
TBH, I never encountered direct hatred for either SS or DE. I did so for Thief, for the first time, as well as for Thief's fanbase. Though, if a game manages to trigger autist nerds so, then it is all the better for that.
 

Melan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
6,602
Location
Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae, Hungary
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! I helped put crap in Monomyth
With very few exceptions, Thief fans are also Deus Ex fans, who are also System Shock 2 fans, who (if they have played it) are also System Shock 1 fans, who are also Thief fans. The argument that there is some kind of major rivalry is retarded.

The only big difference is that Thief has an active fan mission scene and, sadly, DX/SS2 don't.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
sadly, DX/SS2 don't.

And you've detailed some good reasons in the past for why they don't. ;) Here they are again, for the interested:

Yes; as I wrote, Thief takes well to episodic fan missions. The formula works. A few reasons:
It is easy to find a motivation for action. It can be as simple as "I have a simple job planned for this evening. Break into a guarded mansion, steal another fat nobleman's priceless trinket, and leave quietly." If you want more than that, most Thief stories follow film noir patterns, which mesh very well with the gameplay.

The games also give you a strong set of baseline assumptions, which work in your favour. You don't have to start from the beginning and build a whole world. Add Hammerites, and players will know what they are dealing with.

On the other hand, the city is expansive, and can accommodate several different stories. It has no solid, well-defined limits.

You can deliver a self-contained mission/story within one level, which can be any size you want. You don't have to do a whole campaign, and you can scale a project to your abilities/free time.

There is no character advancement. Garrett is always Garrett, with the same general capabilities except equipment, which you can easily regulate.

Most AI attack you, flee from you or disregard you. You don't have to develop complicated interactions, or do voice acting (which tends to be an "expensive" development resource for fan projects). You can communicate most of the story through readables and environmental clues. (Actually, it seems to me a lot of Thief authors and players want story first, aesthetics second and gameplay third. There are much fewer purely gameplay-oriented levels than levels which tell some kind of story. This also means you don't have to be a technological wizard to make a mission.)

Both the Dark Engine and idTech4 are newbie-friendly, with relatively low barriers of entry and shallow learning curves. Many modern engines use custom-built models for architecture, which you have to create in an outside app, and import into the actual game editor. This can go wrong at three different points, and requires expertise in four fields (modelling, texturing, conversion and level building) instead of one.

As a side note, it would be relatively easy to imagine a different Thief, one that had a text-based conversation/trading system like Ultima Underworld,
and I am sure a lot of authors would prefer it to what we have. However, the game's focused nature and specific limitations also make it less likely for someone to get carried away and make something over-ambitious. It still happens all the time, but there are some hard restrictions.

In comparison, System Shock and Deus Ex are much more specific, and require you to put a lot more work into the story, levels, interaction possibilities, character stats, and more.

But I think it is mainly about that specific combination of strong focus and high variability that makes Thief well-suited for fan missions. It doesn't hurt that there is an established community playing, commenting on, and building fan missions, but that's more about momentum (which seems to be stalling, unfortunately), not the initial reasons for popularity. This community is also special in that it has a lot of people who aren't typical gamers. They often tend to be older, there are more women, and far less techies than in the regular FPS scene. Maybe that's also something which matters.
 

tormund

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
2,282
Location
Penetrating the underrail
With very few exceptions, Thief fans are also Deus Ex fans, who are also System Shock 2 fans, who (if they have played it) are also System Shock 1 fans, who are also Thief fans. The argument that there is some kind of major rivalry is retarded.

The only big difference is that Thief has an active fan mission scene and, sadly, DX/SS2 don't.
That is p much my own experience. Which is why is wrote that "for the first time". This is literally the very first instance where I encountered hate for original Thief games and their fans, and some implied rivalry between them and original Deus Ex (and Hitman, and Ultima Underworld, for that matter).
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
With very few exceptions, Thief fans are also Deus Ex fans, who are also System Shock 2 fans, who (if they have played it) are also System Shock 1 fans, who are also Thief fans. The argument that there is some kind of major rivalry is retarded.

The only big difference is that Thief has an active fan mission scene and, sadly, DX/SS2 don't.
There is a big difference in the gameplay though.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom