1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

[Unkillable Cat]

Ash Your entire argument boils down to "muh uhpinion!" and how it is some sacred cow of righteousness, and yet "their opinions" are irrelevant and wrong and people should be called out for it.

And you expect anyone to take you seriously?

You're just another modder having his dramatic meltdown. We'll keep kicking you to get more butthurt out of you, but otherwise you're done here.

 

[Ash]

Where have I said or even implied their opinions are irrelevant? Please, do tell. Anyway, even If I've made such a mistake and you can find something that remotely looks that way, remember I'm facing a horde of abuse (some of it even attempting to get personal) from a bunch of unrestrained degenerate neckbeards as well as long standing harassment from an individual (which some find funny, go figure) so it's difficult for me to be fair and just.

fucking hell.

I've been harassed

You should weaponize that. i can already see article on Huffington Post:

"Disabled autistic video game fan shares a shocking story of harassment campaign against him led by Sedaud "Dev_Anj" Ritli, Indian alt-right figurehead, Shaivite Fundamentalist and Aryan Supremacist"
Inside the dark world of Indian alternative right: "If you can't take the heat, you certainly won't enjoy your stay in the oven", declares Ritli
In related news: "Thief: The Dark project" - harmless video game, or alt right recruitment tool sent back in time by Alexander Dugin's technopriests"
More: "Our universe might be a simulation run by Russian hackers, reveals NASA's 20 billion dollar heavy research" "Gib moar plz" says NASA's representative

Fucking degenerate echo chamber in here. It's funny to you that I'm harassed by your Indian friend? dumb question, it's RPG codex. Any kind of drama is awesum!!!111
Fucking retards.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

I love Thief, I love Deus ex, I love System Shock, and I love Ultima games.

These games were the ones that really blew my mind when i played than, they were more than normal videogames. I guess the word immersion - which nowadays is despised by the codex - fit only these LG games without that bad connotation.

Now immersive sim is a sentence that is fairly recent and idiotic. Makes me want to vomit. Older gamers remember a time when there were only a few defining genres: RPG, Action, Adventure, Strategy, Simulation, etc. And fuck if a game had characteristics of more genres, they would fit the genre that they featured the most: So Doom was an action game, deus ex would fit as an RPG like UUW. Even thief would be inserted into the "action" genre back then. But these were never simulation games.

The way I see, Deus ex is a continuation/evolution of the style presented by UUW, SS1+2... they're based on RPG origins (Ultima) and so they have stats, character development, skills, and all that shit.

Than you have thief as a side thing, and the end product gives you a character already defined: He is a top level capped thief from the start. And terrible at other things. And yet the game managed to be varied as fuck. It's like a polished/ focused version of looking glass games. It's a game that nailed it from the beggining. The Mods for thief 1 and 2 are mostly graphical ones, because gameplay is perfect and balanced already, and it has lots of creative solutions to hide its flaws. Most thief mods are graphical ones. No need to improve gameplay o change AI settings...

I always had the thought that a successor to thief in it's perfection would be a game that would focus on one RPG profession and develop a game with a level capped RPG class. But the Thief class is the one to go to make a game that can be fun and challenging. In a perfect world, looking glass would continue the series making games titled: Wizard. Barbarian. Knight. Priest. Assassin. Warrior. (stay with main ones, like the genres before.) In which the main character would be good only in that profession and develop a game with that mindset. Easier said than done. There were attempts, like Lichdom: battlemage, or These sniper shooters like Sniper Elite/Sniper: ghost warrior, but they're not as fulfilling as thief ever was. And even some of these "professions" would also require you to be stealthy, so this eventually becomes a thief clone... and we want originality and focus.

Enough Rambling... Thief is perfect. Deus ex needs GMDX 9.0.

 

[Ash]

Enough Rambling... Thief is perfect. Deus ex needs GMDX 9.0.

To be "perfect" or mechanically tight, and highly polished Like Thief, sure. But just because Thief is mechanically tight and Deus Ex is not doesn't mean it offers a better overall experience (and again, that's down do personal opinion what you prefer anyway).

Does that mean Invisible war or Human Revolution are better than the original because they are polished and mechanically tighter than it? No. And as it needs stating to certain fucktards, that's my opinion.

 

[Raghar]

Where to even fucking begin? From the top, I guess.

(Disclaimer: I've only briefly played Deus Ex, to the point that I can safely agree with Lyric Suite, it does stealth worse than Thief and combat worse than many other games out there. I am well familiar with all other titles mentioned.)

I played DX to the finish, and aside of fucking ironman by forcing to have a point in swimming, or finding rebreather. It was normal shooter. Basically the only interesting was story, and these funny stuff near the end.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Wait a sec, Dev_Anj is Wyrmlordian? I mean, the name kinda fits but still.

 

[Stakhanov]

I do think there's some misunderstanding around what 'immersive sim' is exactly meant to convey, and if it were given a succint definition it might help people understand what is actually being argued by Ash. As far as I can tell, it's a game that prioritises the believability of the world through logical rules/mechanics and environments that make the player feel like they are part of something coherent. The end goal is something like a Gesamtkunstwerk where your experience of the game goes beyond the sum of its parts, and that's why UU, Thief, System Shock and Deus Ex are some of the best games I've ever played. I'd extend this to games like the Gothic series or STALKER as well, for example.

Now it's easy to strawman this as the meaningless 'emergent gameplay' (everything is coded into the game, so what emerges?) or 'immersion' as a weasel world reviewers use when they can't actually find a way to analyse what they're talking about. But if it's made a focal point of game design as it was with Looking Glass it is far from meaningless. So if I'm correct, what is being argued is that a game with fewer ways to interact with the world and a tighter focus is not as successful an immersive sim because the more player agency is restricted the more the game world will feel less believable/logical and thus more gamey.

Respectfully, I disagree because I think calling Thief stripped and lacking is an overstatement, it offers the player logical rules and a wide array of different means of interacting with the game world to achieve the end of smacking people in the head with a blackjack and take their stuff, so I'm not sure what is crying out to be added.

 

[Ash]

I do think there's some misunderstanding around what 'immersive sim' is exactly meant to convey, and if it were given a succint definition it might help people understand what is actually being argued by Ash

The term dates back to the year 2000 if not before and is in use by ex-LG devs today. Should be well know to any true fan of the genre.

Where to even fucking begin? From the top, I guess.

(Disclaimer: I've only briefly played Deus Ex, to the point that I can safely agree with Lyric Suite, it does stealth worse than Thief and combat worse than many other games out there. I am well familiar with all other titles mentioned.)

I played DX to the finish, and aside of fucking ironman by forcing to have a point in swimming, or finding rebreather. It was normal shooter. Basically the only interesting was story, and these funny stuff near the end.

Careful. Despite this clearly being your opinion, it's written as an objective statement. And probably means you think there's no room for other viewpoints too. Why? Because we say so as we're running out of decent counterpoints.

^that's assuming I've even made such a statement without specifically defining it as an opinion. Probably. Everyone does it all the damn time, after all.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Enough Rambling... Thief is perfect. Deus ex needs GMDX 9.0.

To be "perfect" or mechanically tight, and highly polished Like Thief, sure. But just because Thief is mechanically tight and Deus Ex is not doesn't mean it offers a better overall experience (and again, that's down do personal opinion what you prefer anyway).

Does that mean Invisible war or Human Revolution are better than the original because they are polished and mechanically tighter than it? No. And as it needs stating to certain fucktards, that's my opinion.

Except Invisible war is not polished, and Human revolution is really bland.

Also, in my opinion, thief offers the best gaming experience...

 

[Ash]

Human revolution is really bland.

Stated objectively. Best hope there's not a rabid Human Revolution fanboy around.

 

[Stakhanov]

Does that mean Invisible war or Human Revolution are better than the original because they are polished

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59PzmOLSf00#t=33s

 

[Ash]

Perhaps an overstatement. I haven't played the game since a few years after release, after all, aside from firing it up shortly last year for researching purposes. Nonetheless, both are more polished than the original.

Respectfully, I disagree because I think calling Thief stripped and lacking is an overstatement, it offers the player logical rules and a wide array of different means of interacting with the game world to achieve the end of smacking people in the head with a blackjack and take their stuff, so I'm not sure what is crying out to be added.

I already mentioned less static environments and deeper interactivity with the world. That to me is a defining element of their designs. In fact I listed a bunch of things earlier.

 

[tormund]

Only area where IW is more polished than original is presentation. Technically and mechanically though, game is a mess.

 

[Sigourn]

Thief is immersive until you realize the guards are braindead/blind and it's just self-suggestion/larping that makes it immersive.

Pretty sure that's Deus Ex, mate.

 

[Tehdagah]

Thief AI is as smart as bacteria.

 

[pippin]

Had no problems playing through IW. The only really bad thing I can think of is level design: too small and not really as "organic" as it was in DX.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Thief is immersive until you realize the guards are braindead/blind and it's just self-suggestion/larping that makes it immersive.

Pretty sure that's Deus Ex, mate.

It's both. I'm sorry.

Though I've never played a game where guards weren't braindead, so it's kind of a moot point. AI is the big sticking point for pretty much every game ever. Like 4X games. I'll say that I've played almost every major 4X title and that of them all, GalCiv 2 has probably got the best AI, and people will say "But GalCiv2 has got terrible AI," to which I'll respond "Too true mate."

My point is that "Not braindead shit" apparently isn't really an achievable metric for AI, so we've got to evaluate the guards (from both Deus Ex and Thief) from a relative point of view: Are they marginally less braindead and less shit than other games?

 

[Tacgnol]

CyberP self ejection v2 inc...

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Thief 1 + 2 > System Shock 1 + 2

Thief = Deus Ex

I'd say:

Thief 1 + 2 > Deus Ex > > System Shock 1 > > > > > > > > > > > System Shock 2

It's sacrilege around these parts, but I don't think System Shock 2 holds up as well as Thief or Deus Ex. In fact, I've never really liked SS2. Its first 1/3 is great, but the game gets really repetitive and boring once you look behind the seams of its mechanics. Plus, it has way too much combat, despite its combat sucking, and its stealth system sucks.

Thief is still a great game because its level design is some of the best we've ever seen and, while its AI is simple, its mechanics are immediately graspable and understandable, to the point that it works great as a game even if its AI might sometimes behave in a way that breaks immersion. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a game. It's why Thief is a better game than Deus Ex, I think. Deus Ex had elements of Thief, but it was always more focused on its plot and storyline, to the point that I don't think its gameplay was as refined as Thief's.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

In a perfect world, looking glass would continue the series making games titled: Wizard. Barbarian. Knight. Priest. Assassin. Warrior. (stay with main ones, like the genres before.) In which the main character would be good only in that profession and develop a game with that mindset.

Coming soon from looking Glass Games, "Bard."

 

[pippin]

Thief 1 + 2 > System Shock 1 + 2

Thief = Deus Ex

I'd say:

Thief 1 + 2 > Deus Ex > > System Shock 1 > > > > > > > > > > > System Shock 2

It's sacrilege around these parts, but I don't think System Shock 2 holds up as well as Thief or Deus Ex. In fact, I've never really liked SS2. Its first 1/3 is great, but the game gets really repetitive and boring once you look behind the seams of its mechanics. Plus, it has way too much combat, despite its combat sucking, and its stealth system sucks.

Thief is still a great game because its level design is some of the best we've ever seen and, while its AI is simple, its mechanics are immediately graspable and understandable, to the point that it works great as a game even if its AI might sometimes behave in a way that breaks immersion. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a game. It's why Thief is a better game than Deus Ex, I think. Deus Ex had elements of Thief, but it was always more focused on its plot and storyline, to the point that I don't think its gameplay was as refined as Thief's.

I like System Shock 1 more than 2. Perhaps it's PTSD from the Bioshock series, I dunno.
The thing that's a little disappointing about DX's mechanics for me is that when you're confronted with picking an aug it's really way too clear there's only one choice that's absolutely useful for you, and the other is shit. I don't think the different playstyles argument is valid here, because it's just not true. Design wise both DX and Thief are cool imo, but I like Thief a little bit better.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I guess the word immersion - which nowadays is despised by the codex - fit only these LG games without that bad connotation.

The only reason "immersion" is despised by the Codex is that it's been used as an industry buzzword to hype superficial things that don't matter. Oblivion has so much immershun because of Radiant AI! Of course, Radiant AI was a fucking joke and it's impossible to be immersed in a world that has shit like common bandits all having the most powerful armor just because you leveled up, or characters' voices changing in mid-conversation. But doesn't matter, Bethesda hyped immersion and videogame journalists parroted that because they don't have two brain cells to rub together, so all of a sudden "immersion" starts to mean "pointless shit that doesn't add anything to the game that's just used for marketing." That's why "immersion" is despised by the Codex.

Actual immersion, the kind where the game really sucks you in to the point where you sometimes almost forget you're playing a game, is fucking awesome and always will be. It's achieved through making the game world believable (verisimilitude), as well as a great attention to detail. I still think Thief 1 is the best horror game ever made, despite the fact that it isn't even a horror game, because it immerses you so fully into the experience that it's actually scary just crouching in the dark, listening to the clanking chains of the skeleton walking nearby. If the gaming industry as a whole used "immersion" to only talk about that kind of experience, the word would have only positive connotations, even here.

 

[anvi]

Thief and Deus Ex are not very good imo because of the gameplay. Creeping up on people that can't see you 6 inches away and then trying to club them on the head with goofy controls etc. I think the Hitman games do a much better job of being like Thief than any Thief game ever did. Deus Ex is better but bored me. System Shock is a masterpiece.

If I had to rank them it would be SS > SS 2 > Hitman series > Deus Ex > Thief.

I liked the thief that had water arrows to put out torches, but still not enough.

 

[anvi]

I guess the word immersion - which nowadays is despised by the codex - fit only these LG games without that bad connotation.

I've never seen anyone in the industry talking about immersion. The only people I see talking about immersion are gamers who have experienced it and liked it and it is the best word to describe what they feel. Everquest = incredible immersive. Crysis = no immersion. In other words it has nothing to do with graphics quality, it is about fov and environmental sounds etc.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

In a perfect world, looking glass would continue the series making games titled: Wizard. Barbarian. Knight. Priest. Assassin. Warrior. (stay with main ones, like the genres before.) In which the main character would be good only in that profession and develop a game with that mindset.

Coming soon from looking Glass Games, "Bard."

Made in the late 90's, who knows? It would require music knowledge though...