Decline Is The Age of Decline over?

[dragonul09]

I'm an old man. I remember the true golden age. As much as I like the new age crpgs (except the horrible D:OS), the true golden age was between 92-2000. Just think about it.

In a quick succession you had the best of SSI Gold Boxes, Fallout 1, 2, Baldur's Gate 1, 2, JA 1, 2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum. Those 8-10 games are still the gold standard.

All of TSR's best settings were used, Interplay was on a roll, Black Isle was at its peak, and their most hack n slash mindless game was still awesome (IWD)

That time may come again, but with Wasteland 2 being around 8/10 and Pillars being around 9/10 at best, you still need 9 more classics to match up to that era.

-Wasteland 2 and PoE have nothing on those title you mentioned.Wasteland 2 was a 5-6 ,a total disaster in the storyline,quest,art department as well in the combat one ,the ai was so fucking bad dude.

-PoE is a 6-7 just for the art and some nice music here and there.The combat is a clusterfuck ,playing as a wizard on hard was beyond frustrating because everyone seems to have a teleportation spell.The writing is mediocre ,the storyline is linear, invalidating all of your choices at the end of Act 2 and till the end of the game nothing important happens,not even the ending.

It's not nostalgia ,it's just that the older ones are better,much better.They had the chance to do something good without the pressure from publishers and those pesky evil man in black suits ,but in the end they fucked it up.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Somehow this thread feels incomplete without felipepepe's awesome Age of Decline video:

 

[KK1001]

Decline isn't over, but we're in an Age of Plateau, where the best we can hope for are things close to games made 15 or more years ago.

 

[Cadmus]

For me the age of decline is over because it will be about a year before I'm out of NEW games to play, not to mention all your previous golden age games so I dun giv fucks.

 

[LESS T_T]

Let's aggregate all inclined, half-inclined, crappy, pseudo and popamole RPGs from 2010:

Spoiler

2010

indie
Din's Curse
Eschalon Book II
Cthulhu Saves the World

port/English-release
Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale

mid-size
ArcaniA: Gothic 4
Divinity 2: Dragon Knight Saga
Two Worlds 2

big budget
Mass Effect 2
Alpha Protocol
Fallout: New Vegas


2011

indie
Avadon: The Black Fortress
Frayed Knights: The Skull of S'makh-Daon

remake/remaster
Avernum: Escape From The Pit

mid-size
Venetica
The Witcher 2: The Assassins of Kings
DarkSpore

big-budget
Dragon Age 2
Fable 3
Dungeon Siege 3
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim


2012

indie
Legend of Grimrock
Torchlight 2
Dorx Operative

remake/remaster
Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition

port/English-release
Dark Souls
Fortune Summoners

mid-size
Risen 2
Game of Thrones
Of Orcs and Men

big budget
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning
Diablo 3


2013
indie
Driftmoon
Expeditions: Conquistador
Avadon 2: The Corruption
Paper Sorcerer
Drox Operative: Invasion of the Ancients

remake/remaster
Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny HD
Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition

mid-size
Mars: War Logs
Legends of Dawn
The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing
Shadowrun Returns
The Dark Eye: Demonicon
Blood Knights


2014
indie
Consortium
The Banner Saga
Heroes of a Broken Land
Escahlon: Book III
Transistor
Pier Solar and the Great Architects
Costume Quest 2
Legend of Grimrock 2
Lords of Xulima
Dead State
NEO Scavanger
LISA

remake/remaster
Fable Anniversary
Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition

port/English-release
Agarest: Generations of War
Agarest: Generations of War Zero
Final Fantasy III
Final Fantasy IV
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIII-2
The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
Rime Berta
Elminage Gothic
Sacred Tears TRUE
Valkyria Chronicles

mid-size
Blackguards
Might & Magic X: Legacy
Shadowrun Dragonfall (and Director's Cut)
Child of Light
Bound by Flame
The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing II
Legends of Persia
Divinity: Original Sin
Risen 3
Wasteland 2
Lords of the Fallen
Shadows: Heretic Kingdoms Book I
Mount & Blade: Viking Conquest

big budget
South Park: Stick of Truth
Dark Souls 2
Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls
Dragon Age: Inquisition


2015
indie
Citizens of Earth
The Legend of Candlewind
Temple of the Abyssal Winds

remake/remaster
Avernum 2: Crystal Souls

port/English-release
Agarest: Generations of War 2
Alphadia Genesis
Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1
Gurumin

mid-size
Blackguards 2
Raven's Cry
Caribbean!
Pillars of Eternity


Upcoming (2015)
(Well, many of these will slip into 2016 or beyond.)

indie
Dungeon Kingdom: Sign of the Moon
Aeon of Sands
Telepath Tactics
Serpents in the Staglands
Legend of Eisenwald
ICY
Age of Decadence
Dragon Fin Soup
Kyn
Zombasite
The Banner Saga 2
StarCrawlers
Antherion
Liege
Darkest Dungeon
BEDLAM
Balrum
Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians
BloodLust: Shadowhunter
Earthlock: Festival of Magic
InSomnia
Grim Dawn
Underrail
Bloom: Memories
Dex
Cosmic Star Heroine
Meriwether: An American Epic

port/English-release
Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns
The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC
Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2

mid-size
Victor Vran
Shadows: Heretic Kingdoms Book II
The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing III
Shadowrun Hong Kong
Sword Coast Legends
Torment: Tides of Numenera

big budget
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt


Upcoming (2016~ or TBA)

indie
Tahira: Echoes of the Astral Empire
Edge of Eternity
Elysian Shadows
Barkley 2
Sui Generis
Prisonscape
Rain of Reflections
Popup Dungeon
The Mandate
Project Phoenix
Graywalkers: Purgatory
Frayed Knights 2
Voxel Quest
Dungeons of Aledorn
Frontiers
Dragons of the Rip
Knights of the Chalice 2
Grimoire

port/English-release
Fairy Fencer F
Mind Zero

mid-size
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Seven Dragon Saga
Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues
Underworld Ascendant
Vampyr
The Bard's Tale IV
Mount & Blade 2
Technomancer
Battle Chasers
Unbended
Sequel to Lords of the Fallen
Unannounced Larian RPG 1
Unannounced Larian RPG 2
Possible Pathfinder RPG from Obsidian
SF-ish Open-world-ish RPG-ish by Ken Levine

big budget
Cyberpunk 2077
Fallout 4
New Mass Effect
Unannounced BioWare game
Unannounced Obsidian game
Rumored System Shock-like by Arcane Studios

Yeah, I think it's safe to call 2014 the first year of new Golden Age.

 

[Viata]

So, what would be the reason to this new Golden Age. More people into indie games or Kickstater?

 

[Gozma]

Digital distribution is fully operational/normalized + crowdfunding

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That is not dead which can eternal cry,
and with strange aeons, even Decline may die.

 

[buzz]

LESS T_T you're being a bit of an ass with that list. I mean, you're putting some silly shit like Costume Quest 2 and Transistor to inflate the later years, but somehow omitting Costume Quest and Bastion which were released in 2010/2011? Adding all those expansions and console ports as well.
And you've forgot quite a few for 2010/2011: Dungeons of Dredmor, Drakensang: River of Time, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, E.Y.E.: Divine Cybermancy, Mount & Blade: Warband, Avernum 6, Dungeon Siege III, Winter Voices and probably a few others as well.

I mean, I get your point but let's try focusing on the essentials here instead of the useless indie shovelware.

 

[LESS T_T]

LESS T_T you're being a bit of an ass with that list. I mean, you're putting some silly shit like Costume Quest 2 and Transistor to inflate the later years, but somehow omitting Costume Quest and Bastion which were released in 2010/2011? Adding all those expansions and console ports as well.
And you've forgot quite a few for 2010/2011: Dungeons of Dredmor, Drakensang: River of Time, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, E.Y.E.: Divine Cybermancy, Mount & Blade: Warband, Avernum 6, Dungeon Siege III, Winter Voices and probably a few others as well.

I mean, I get your point but let's try focusing on the essentials here instead of the useless indie shovelware.

Huh, you are right. I've omitted many titles in 2010/2011 including pretty big ones and ones I personally enjoyed. Probably it's affected by my personal perception. I don't mean it like a revisionist, it's just silly mistake.

Yeah, still my point is that there are more kinds of "RPGs" from more developers now than a few years ago, including "the essentials" and well, indie shovelware.

I might need to do more proper and deliberate research (or wait felipepe's book).

 

[prodigydancer]

I don't get it. How can we even talk about incline when we're still stuck with just two kinds of settings: generic fantasy and generic sci-fi?

Some will say "what about grimdark fantasy?" Nothing actually. E.g. my biggest gripe with PoE is that it's yet another fantasy world. You can paint depleted soil green but you can't make anything grow on it. And fantasy is now as depleted and barren as it gets. Every possible twist has been found and exploited ten times over. All future attempts to exhume this rotting corpse and make it look alive must be legally banned.

Some will say "hold on, there's no such thing as generic sci-fi - look at Mass Effect and Deus Ex and see how they are different." They're not. ME is generic fantasy with space travel and aliens. DX is generic fantasy without space travel and aliens. Aliens in sci-fi games are either humans with some weird quirk or mindless killing machines so the difference between space travel and no space travel is purely cosmetic, not structural or spiritual.

Some will say "but there are cyberpunk settings like Shadowrun." Yeah. Mixing and matching generic fantasy with generic sci-fi is real original. So now you can finally be a fireball-throwing elf wizard or a katana-wielding dwarf fighter. Fucking amazing, people. Day one purchase.

Why are games like Fallout, Arcanum, PS:T and VtMB so memorable? Because they were at least somewhat fresh. In the stinking CRPG slough being just a little different used to mean instant classic and instant cult status. Then all those tentatively innovative studios died out and the remaining ones completely stopped trying; and now while we happily discussing "incline" here, they feed us the same old regurgitated junk over and over again.

P.S. Inb4 "the problem is not exclusive to RPGs": how come that action games can have all kinds of crazy settings? Painkiller. Bioshock. Dishonored. Borderlands.

 

[naossano]

I would include Jagged Alliance as original setting too.
Not that the gameworld is mind blowing, but there is not many game of that genre that use real-life-like gameworld.

 

[Infinitron]

Post-apocalyptic and gothy vampire fiction are also generic at this point. I'd say post-apocalyptic is more common than golden age sci-fi space adventures in video games these days.

Also, Arcanum was just doing what Shadowrun did in a steampunk setting, which is also in the process of becoming generic.

 

[prodigydancer]

Also, Arcanum was just doing what Shadowrun did in a steampunk setting, which is also in the process of becoming generic.

I'd rather play something that's still "in the process" than something that stopped kicking ages ago. But maybe it's just my personal burnout. I mean I agree that from purely technical standpoint incline is real: KS and indie games are infinitely more interesting to play than something like ME3 or DA:I. But isn't it the best time to be brave and audacious, to try something new? (BTW, props to The Banner Saga. And not only for the norther setting but also for the combat system - it wasn't perfect but let's give Stoic some credit for trying.) Most of the time I see opportunities wasted but again - maybe it's just me.

 

[naossano]

I can't comment much about the end result, but it seems that Conquistador, Unrest & Age Of Decadence have pretty original settings too.

 

[prodigydancer]

I can't comment much about the end result, but it seems that Conquistador, Unrest & Age Of Decadence have pretty original settings too.

Never heard about Unrest before but Conquistador was good. As for Age Of Decadence - what's the current state? With all the delays I'm tempted to try it before final release.

 

[Shadowfang]

Delays? What delays? Its Monday and the game is comming out Thursday.

If there is proof that the age of decline is far from gone, it's Blackguards 2.
They brought incline just for a brief moment and then they too were swallowed by the darkness.

 

[Cadmus]

I don't get it. How can we even talk about incline when we're still stuck with just two kinds of settings: generic fantasy and generic sci-fi?

Some will say "what about grimdark fantasy?" Nothing actually. E.g. my biggest gripe with PoE is that it's yet another fantasy world. You can paint depleted soil green but you can't make anything grow on it. And fantasy is now as depleted and barren as it gets. Every possible twist has been found and exploited ten times over. All future attempts to exhume this rotting corpse and make it look alive must be legally banned.

Some will say "hold on, there's no such thing as generic sci-fi - look at Mass Effect and Deus Ex and see how they are different." They're not. ME is generic fantasy with space travel and aliens. DX is generic fantasy without space travel and aliens. Aliens in sci-fi games are either humans with some weird quirk or mindless killing machines so the difference between space travel and no space travel is purely cosmetic, not structural or spiritual.

Some will say "but there are cyberpunk settings like Shadowrun." Yeah. Mixing and matching generic fantasy with generic sci-fi is real original. So now you can finally be a fireball-throwing elf wizard or a katana-wielding dwarf fighter. Fucking amazing, people. Day one purchase.

Why are games like Fallout, Arcanum, PS:T and VtMB so memorable? Because they were at least somewhat fresh. In the stinking CRPG slough being just a little different used to mean instant classic and instant cult status. Then all those tentatively innovative studios died out and the remaining ones completely stopped trying; and now while we happily discussing "incline" here, they feed us the same old regurgitated junk over and over again.

P.S. Inb4 "the problem is not exclusive to RPGs": how come that action games can have all kinds of crazy settings? Painkiller. Bioshock. Dishonored. Borderlands.

I disagree. I want a good, generic fantasy. I keep waiting for the "real deal" and all we've been getting is really shit generic fantasy. I want some dragons, wizards, elves and shit but done so well, deep and interesting as Tolkien's stuff. I don't want the game to pretend to have deep lore by dumping tons of shit, made up names and concept at me from the start (see PoE). I want a generic fantasy that explores the traditional tropes traditionally and really well and deeply. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

 

[Cassidy]

When everything is going down, it is easier to slowly lower one's standards and pretend things are now as good as they were in the golden age than to remain steadfastly critical and cynical. The decline is not over. Those who no longer perceive it in any form simply became adapted to the decline and are now part of the decline themselves, or they were always posers pretending to be hardcore gamers in here while day-one purchasing every AAA shit released. The average profile of the typical Codex user throughout the decline became less jaded, less critical, more mainstream and more apologetic, specially to the immensely overrated Obsidian.

 

[Viata]

I disagree. I want a good, generic fantasy. I keep waiting for the "real deal" and all we've been getting is really shit generic fantasy. I want some dragons, wizards, elves and shit but done so well, deep and interesting as Tolkien's stuff. I don't want the game to pretend to have deep lore by dumping tons of shit, made up names and concept at me from the start (see PoE). I want a generic fantasy that explores the traditional tropes traditionally and really well and deeply. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

This. But I still want a new Vampire the Masquerade setting game.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I disagree. I want a good, generic fantasy. I keep waiting for the "real deal" and all we've been getting is really shit generic fantasy. I want some dragons, wizards, elves and shit but done so well, deep and interesting as Tolkien's stuff. I don't want the game to pretend to have deep lore by dumping tons of shit, made up names and concept at me from the start (see PoE). I want a generic fantasy that explores the traditional tropes traditionally and really well and deeply. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

This. But I still want a new Vampire the Masquerade setting game.

Bloodlust Shadowhunter is the closest thing you'd get.

 

[Viata]

I disagree. I want a good, generic fantasy. I keep waiting for the "real deal" and all we've been getting is really shit generic fantasy. I want some dragons, wizards, elves and shit but done so well, deep and interesting as Tolkien's stuff. I don't want the game to pretend to have deep lore by dumping tons of shit, made up names and concept at me from the start (see PoE). I want a generic fantasy that explores the traditional tropes traditionally and really well and deeply. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

This. But I still want a new Vampire the Masquerade setting game.

Bloodlust Shadowhunter is the closest thing you'd get.

Still early access, but I like what I saw. Thanks.

 

[Archibald]

I feel that we are currently moving backwards in time as far as crpgs go. Basically every kickstarter was funded because it, in one way or another, promised old school games. Don't get me wrong, thats certainly better than what was happening 4-5 years ago, but I'd hardly call it an incline. Once this genre actually moves forward (when was the last time you felt that some crpg game actually moved the genre forward? Personally I'd place it at first Fallout, but I might be missing something obvious since I need some sleep) then I might agree that decline is getting weaker.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

Listen, and understand. The Decline is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are consolized.

 

[Brayko]

Both incline and decline will temporarily work out their differences until the next CoD-like splash that sells billions of copies swoons and beds decline right from its clutches.