Decline Is The Age of Decline over?

[vorvek]

Do you even like RPGs?

Didn't you know?

Everything is shit.

 

[Melan]

You mean games like Menzoberanzan, wizardry 7, the eye of the beholder series, king's field, arena, the Ishar series and a whole host of other "dwarves & elves, orks & goblins, evil wizards, explore the dungeon, save the kingdom" olde English high fantasy titles? I'm not saying that they were bad, but to propose that rpg-s 20 years ago had more diverse settings (with a few notable exceptions like albion or dark sun) or deeper storytelling is stretching it.

I beg your pardon? Unless I am misunderstanding something here, what makes Wizardry 7 olde English dwarves&elves high fantasy? Did we play the same game, or was I the only person who got the alternate reality version with flying jellyfish, spacefaring rhino men, cheerleaders on rocket sleds, and a pudding-headed combination of Caesar and Adolf Hitler looking for a techno-magical artifact which can create whole new worlds?

(Never played Menzoberranzan, but I have a hard time believing a game set in an empire of spider-worshipping underground elves is standard stuff either.)

 

[Dorateen]

You mean games like Menzoberanzan, wizardry 7, the eye of the beholder series, king's field, arena, the Ishar series and a whole host of other "dwarves & elves, orks & goblins, evil wizards, explore the dungeon, save the kingdom" olde English high fantasy titles? I'm not saying that they were bad, but to propose that rpg-s 20 years ago had more diverse settings (with a few notable exceptions like albion or dark sun) or deeper storytelling is stretching it.

I beg your pardon? Unless I am misunderstanding something here, what makes Wizardry 7 olde English dwarves&elves high fantasy? Did we play the same game, or was I the only person who got the alternate reality version with flying jellyfish, spacefaring rhino men, cheerleaders on rocket sleds, and a pudding-headed combination of Caesar and Adolf Hitler looking for a techno-magical artifact which can create whole new worlds?

And don't forget the intergalactic spider-people, nor the anthropomorphic rats.

 

[Caleb462]

Decline is not inevitable. Entropy is trumped by the free will of infinite beings.

 

[Eirikur]

If there's a complete collapse of western civilization (radical economic breakdown, massive natural disasters, nuclear war, WWIII, etc.) and we manage to survive and build a healthier society, I think there might be a gaming renaissance at some point.

 

[Viata]

If there's a complete collapse of western civilization (radical economic breakdown, massive natural disasters, nuclear war, WWIII, etc.) and we manage to survive and build a healthier society, I think there might be a gaming renaissance at some point.

I bet the first game to be released in this new age is going to be Grimoire.

 

[Jaesun]

So basically never?

 

[Xorazm]

You mean games like Menzoberanzan, wizardry 7, the eye of the beholder series, king's field, arena, the Ishar series and a whole host of other "dwarves & elves, orks & goblins, evil wizards, explore the dungeon, save the kingdom" olde English high fantasy titles? I'm not saying that they were bad, but to propose that rpg-s 20 years ago had more diverse settings (with a few notable exceptions like albion or dark sun) or deeper storytelling is stretching it.

I beg your pardon? Unless I am misunderstanding something here, what makes Wizardry 7 olde English dwarves&elves high fantasy? Did we play the same game, or was I the only person who got the alternate reality version with flying jellyfish, spacefaring rhino men, cheerleaders on rocket sleds, and a pudding-headed combination of Caesar and Adolf Hitler looking for a techno-magical artifact which can create whole new worlds?

(Never played Menzoberranzan, but I have a hard time believing a game set in an empire of spider-worshipping underground elves is standard stuff either.)

I am almost certainly going to play this game start to finish one day as a result of this comment alone.

(I swear to god if you are making this shit up I will hunt you down and tie you to a chair until you have produced a game that lives up to this promise)

 

[pippin]

Do not worry, most of those creatures appear on the game's intro alone.
Wizardry, along with earlier Ultimas, was probably one of the most "fantastic" game series out there.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

For two years straight now I've had more than three CRPGs come out that I felt I needed to play, instead of my usual habit of scrounging entirely for old abandonware titles I had yet to get around to playing. So yeah...

 

[DarKPenguiN]

So basically never?

No. Next friday silly.

Now that we have a clear timeline its easier to prepare for the incline.

 

[TomatoJuice]

I think we are living in an age of Incline.

Yes the forces of Decline are still out there. But let's be fair shitty games always existed.
->Descent to Undermountain<-

I really don't care if Fallout 4 will be shitty.

Spoiler

IT WILL BE SHITTY

As long as there are enough good or at least interesting games out there I will be happy.

Is it possible that the Decline returns. Yes of course it is.
But there are only two things we can do and that it buy the good stuff and codex complain about the bad eggs.

Even if the Incline is only a short term high it still gives us new games and inspiration for a new generation of game devs.

 

[KK1001]

Yeah, I think so, if only because 2005 to 2010 was such a dreadful time for RPGs in general.

Right now you have promising games at every level. Mainstream (The Witcher 3, Souls-like games), middleware (Pillars of Eternity sequels, Torment) and we're still in the midst of an indie explosion which will produce who knows what (okay, mostly shit, but there will be some gems).

Bioware and Bethesda are still shit, but what can you do? There's really no hope left for them. They make design-by-committee garbage aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Kickstarter isn't a long-term solution by any means. But, for instance, it's more likely that Obsidian would get, say, $10 million dollars to make a sequel to Pillars given the amount of success the game has had.

The key to long-term success is middle-sized companies producing niche RPGs with a budget of $5 to $15 million dollars and selling 500k copies. That's sustainable, and I think we're starting to see it.

 

[granit]

I have faith in indie developers. Just look at a game like Path of Exile, if you're into the concept it's incredible incline. Now will we see a game equal to Morrowind anytime soon? I don't know.

 

[dragonul09]

My proble

I have faith in indie developers. Just look at a game like Path of Exile, if you're into the concept it's incredible incline. Now will we see a game equal to Morrowind anytime soon? I don't know.

And what's so great about Morrowind ?

-The pathetic dice rolling combat system that has no place in a first-person action game.
-The leveling was bland and unsatisfying.
-Exploration was tedious and unrewarding.People kept praising this turd for being big and diverse, what m8888? The shit was more bland and repetitive than Justin Bieber,miles of empty wastelands full of mudcrabs and mushrooms.
-Repetitive and tedious quests that kept sending you on the other side of the fucking map to pick a book or a flower.Apart from 5-10 quests,everything was shit.
-The world felt empty and lifeless.
Daggerfall and Arena were better but still shit,the whole fucking series is tedious and more of walking simulator.

Gothic 1+2 plus expansion ,pisses on the whole series.

 

[vorvek]

[...]
-The pathetic dice rolling combat system that has no place in a first-person action game.
-The leveling was bland and unsatisfying.
-Exploration was tedious and unrewarding.People kept praising this turd for being big and diverse, what m8888? The shit was more bland and repetitive than Justin Bieber,miles of empty wastelands full of mudcrabs and mushrooms.
-Repetitive and tedious quests that kept sending you on the other side of the fucking map to pick a book or a flower.Apart from 5-10 quests,everything was shit.
[...]
Daggerfall and Arena were better

OK

 

[pippin]

-The pathetic dice rolling combat system that has no place in a first-person action game.

This is what happens when you start to review things "backwards" as new installments are being made.

Or in other words:

 

[Norfleet]

Decline is not inevitable. Entropy is trumped by the free will of infinite beings.

No, no it isn't. Beings can only reduce local entropy at the cost of greater global entropy, meaning, they actually accelerate the Decline. All Incline is an illusion.

 

[Shaewaroz]

I've finally had some time to play a couple of hours of PoE, and unfortunately it just doesn't live up to the hype. I hate the refilling healthbar, the writing is mediocre, the maps (although beautiful) feel uninspired, the loot is incredibly boring, the combat is too fast and tedious instead of exciting. The Decline is everywhere. Please someone shoot me.

EDIT: Disregard my babling, I adjusted some cambat pausing settings and activated the slomo combat, and now the combat is fine. I also met some pretty interesting NPCs, only Gilded Vale was exceptionally boring place - why would they put the most boring place in the beginning of the game? There are still some features that irritate me, but I'm definitely gonna keep on pushing forward.

 

[KK1001]

Torment is almost assuredly going to be better. More experienced and capable design team, turn-based, and a much greater respect for the game's roots.

..R-right?

 

[Infinitron]

The Golden Age of Computer RPGs… 2014-Present?
Posted by Rampant Coyote on April 2, 2015



It’s my birthday today. If I had a birthday wish it would be… hmm…. you know what? How about a return to that “golden age” of computer RPGs that I like talking about? You know, that wonderful 5-year period or so between 1988(ish) and 1993 where we just had a ton of classic RPGs released, and a ton of not-so-classic ones as well. I mean, it was THE genre (along with adventure games) back then on the PC. The era of the Ultimas (and Ultima Underworlds), the Gold BoxD&D games, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Darklands,Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder, Realms of Arkania, Magic Candle, and lots more.

More than I could possibly play, even if I could have afforded them all. Actually, a few of ‘em I still haven’t played – or played more than an hour or two. It was a time of bounty for the RPG fan. If anything, it felt like too many games (as if that could be a bad thing), and it felt like it would never end.

Yeah, good times, good times. I wish we could do that again.

HEY! GUESS WHAT?!?!? MY WISH CAME TRUE!!!

​

Yeah, I’m not able to put nearly as many hours intoPillars of Eternity as I would like, but I’m still enjoying it a LOT. Because I was doing “research” I got sucked into Legend of Grimrock 2 for way too long earlier this week. And over the last couple of years, we’ve seen some excellent “big indie” RPGs hit the market like Divity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2,Shadowrun, The Banner Saga, Dead State, Lords of Xulima, etc. We’ve had smaller indie releases likeSeason of the Wolf, Heroes of a Broken Land,Steam Marines, a reboot of the Avernum series, the conclusion of the Eschalon series, Paper Sorcerer, and many others. And on the mainstream side, we’ve had big budget successes like Dragon Age: Inquisition, Risen 3, and Dark Souls 2, as well as smaller but cool productions like Might & Magic X: Legacy. And then there’s a couple of remakes / special editions, like the Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale ‘enhanced’ games.

And they keep coming. I guess they are already talking about a sequel to Pillars of Eternity (YES, PLEASE!), Torment: Tides of Numenera, Richard Garriott’s Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues, Telepath Tactics, The Banner Saga 2, and the hopefully not-too-distant releases of the nextFrayed Knights (PLUG!), Age of Decadence, and Zombacite… to say nothing of the somewhat more distant releases of newly-funded or hopefully soon-to-be-funded games like Underworld Ascendant orSeven Dragon Saga… sadly probably a good deal over the horizon, but still exciting.

Seriously, I can’t keep track. I didn’t even try to list everything here (skipping the jRPGs entirely, I note, which used to make up the bulk of the indie RPGs for PC of the year…) Especially when you include the smaller indie titles, I really have a tough time imagining that 1990 was better than this. Yeah, we have our stinkers… but we did back then, too.



So yeah. I’m taking the opportunity to wax optimistic. You know, I spent too many frickin’ years bemoaning the state of role-playing games (outside of MMORPGs) and wishing things would get better. My own efforts as an indie was in part because I wanted to do something to make things better. I screamed, unheard outside of my own little bubble, that these “old school” sensibilities were not obsolete, not old bathwater, and that I’d bet real money (I should have bet more!) that a competent, quality, low-to-medium-budget game would still find a receptive market by taking a few steps back and embracing those old design ideas, like turn-based combat.

And finally, my wish came true. No, I’ll never be satisfied, and no, there’s no such thing as perfect. But now I’m finding games to point to and say, “THIS!!!! This is exactly what I was talking about!” We’ve got our old games back, after a fashion.

Bottom line… I may have to quit referring the the late 80s / early 90s as the “Golden Age” of PC Role-Playing Games. I think the time is now.

 

[Eirikur]

The Golden Age of Computer RPGs… 2014-Present?
Posted by Rampant Coyote on April 2, 2015



It’s my birthday today. If I had a birthday wish it would be… hmm…. you know what? How about a return to that “golden age” of computer RPGs that I like talking about? You know, that wonderful 5-year period or so between 1988(ish) and 1993 where we just had a ton of classic RPGs released, and a ton of not-so-classic ones as well. I mean, it was THE genre (along with adventure games) back then on the PC. The era of the Ultimas (and Ultima Underworlds), the Gold BoxD&D games, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Darklands,Lands of Lore, Eye of the Beholder, Realms of Arkania, Magic Candle, and lots more.

More than I could possibly play, even if I could have afforded them all. Actually, a few of ‘em I still haven’t played – or played more than an hour or two. It was a time of bounty for the RPG fan. If anything, it felt like too many games (as if that could be a bad thing), and it felt like it would never end.

Yeah, good times, good times. I wish we could do that again.

HEY! GUESS WHAT?!?!? MY WISH CAME TRUE!!!

​

Yeah, I’m not able to put nearly as many hours intoPillars of Eternity as I would like, but I’m still enjoying it a LOT. Because I was doing “research” I got sucked into Legend of Grimrock 2 for way too long earlier this week. And over the last couple of years, we’ve seen some excellent “big indie” RPGs hit the market like Divity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2,Shadowrun, The Banner Saga, Dead State, Lords of Xulima, etc. We’ve had smaller indie releases likeSeason of the Wolf, Heroes of a Broken Land,Steam Marines, a reboot of the Avernum series, the conclusion of the Eschalon series, Paper Sorcerer, and many others. And on the mainstream side, we’ve had big budget successes like Dragon Age: Inquisition, Risen 3, and Dark Souls 2, as well as smaller but cool productions like Might & Magic X: Legacy. And then there’s a couple of remakes / special editions, like the Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale ‘enhanced’ games.

And they keep coming. I guess they are already talking about a sequel to Pillars of Eternity (YES, PLEASE!), Torment: Tides of Numenera, Richard Garriott’s Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues, Telepath Tactics, The Banner Saga 2, and the hopefully not-too-distant releases of the nextFrayed Knights (PLUG!), Age of Decadence, and Zombacite… to say nothing of the somewhat more distant releases of newly-funded or hopefully soon-to-be-funded games like Underworld Ascendant orSeven Dragon Saga… sadly probably a good deal over the horizon, but still exciting.

Seriously, I can’t keep track. I didn’t even try to list everything here (skipping the jRPGs entirely, I note, which used to make up the bulk of the indie RPGs for PC of the year…) Especially when you include the smaller indie titles, I really have a tough time imagining that 1990 was better than this. Yeah, we have our stinkers… but we did back then, too.



So yeah. I’m taking the opportunity to wax optimistic. You know, I spent too many frickin’ years bemoaning the state of role-playing games (outside of MMORPGs) and wishing things would get better. My own efforts as an indie was in part because I wanted to do something to make things better. I screamed, unheard outside of my own little bubble, that these “old school” sensibilities were not obsolete, not old bathwater, and that I’d bet real money (I should have bet more!) that a competent, quality, low-to-medium-budget game would still find a receptive market by taking a few steps back and embracing those old design ideas, like turn-based combat.

And finally, my wish came true. No, I’ll never be satisfied, and no, there’s no such thing as perfect. But now I’m finding games to point to and say, “THIS!!!! This is exactly what I was talking about!” We’ve got our old games back, after a fashion.

Bottom line… I may have to quit referring the the late 80s / early 90s as the “Golden Age” of PC Role-Playing Games. I think the time is now.

I'll remain a grumpy gamer until I get a worthy successor to Gothic 2 NotR.

 

[naossano]

Well, it depends of what you call decline...

Regardless when, most AAA games would be streamlined & shallow. This won't change and don't even need to change.

The whole point of the incline is having choice about the kind of game you want to play, including deep ones, challenging one, with different perspective or gameplay than what the crowd want.
As long as there is 1-2 worthy games each years, as long as the companies who make them aren't forced to close, aren't bought by soulless competitors, or don't succumb to decline on their own, we can still call it incline, no matter how many popamole are released the same year.

About franchise zombies, like Fallout, well caring about its fate depends on how much you care about the franchise, but even if you care, it doesn't change the overall trend of having the opportunity to choose which kind of game you want to play.

On the other hand, the current mode of sustaining incline might not last forever. They should really consider other way to fund their games.

 

[Caleb462]

Decline is not inevitable. Entropy is trumped by the free will of infinite beings.

No, no it isn't. Beings can only reduce local entropy at the cost of greater global entropy, meaning, they actually accelerate the Decline. All Incline is an illusion.

And I believe decline is the illusion... an illusion that depends on such surrender to supposed inevitability. We are at our core, free and infinite spirit beings with the capability to bend reality to our wishes with enough directed energy. We just have no idea that this is the case on a large social scale, and have been programmed to believe in weakness and powerlessness instead. But we can change anything for the better... least of all the quality of video games.

 

[Kel]

I'm an old man. I remember the true golden age. As much as I like the new age crpgs (except the horrible D:OS), the true golden age was between 92-2000. Just think about it.

In a quick succession you had the best of SSI Gold Boxes, Fallout 1, 2, Baldur's Gate 1, 2, JA 1, 2, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum. Those 8-10 games are still the gold standard.

All of TSR's best settings were used, Interplay was on a roll, Black Isle was at its peak, and their most hack n slash mindless game was still awesome (IWD)

That time may come again, but with Wasteland 2 being around 8/10 and Pillars being around 9/10 at best, you still need 9 more classics to match up to that era.