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Is Irenicus a good villain?

kris

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Irenicus is a good game villian simply because of how he is implemented in the game. He is there both at the begining and the end and during the course of the game he is there to put road blocks for the player. I would say things like motivation is secondary, but you know, at least he wasn't "ancient evil no#15"
 

SwiftCrack

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Yeah that he appears in second one of the game is a nice touch. My most hated villain is one that shows up as the final big baddie after 3/4th of the game is over. (Again, jRPGs are notorious for this)
 

pippin

Guest
Sarevok was more of an ancient evil #15 considering how he was one of he bhaalspawn, just like you. Irenicus is more of a broken guy, but most of the ideas about him were poorly implemented, and imo forcefully adapted into the D&D canon (I mean no elf is that muscular, especially when he's just a mage).
 

SwiftCrack

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Sarevok was more of an ancient evil #15 considering how he was one of he bhaalspawn, just like you. Irenicus is more of a broken guy, but most of the ideas about him were poorly implemented, and imo forcefully adapted into the D&D canon (I mean no elf is that muscular, especially when he's just a mage).

I don't know, he's supposed to be more than just 'an elf' man. I liked his character design.
 

Baardhaas

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(I mean no elf is that muscular, especially when he's just a mage).
Yes, that always struck me as odd. Dude was build like a bodybuilder, which didn't seem fitting at all.

Just imagine the following lines with a different voice, say Arnold Schwarzenegger's, since his sprite looks like him.

'Ahhh, the child of Bhaal has awoken. It is time for more...'experiments'... The pain will only be passing; you should survive the process...'
'You dare to attack me here? Do you even KNOW whom you face? You will suffer! You will ALL suffer!'

Weird huh? The writing is just standard evil wizard drivel. All he really had going for him was his excellent voice actor.

Irenicus, what is best in life?
'Tickle your enemies. See them three times before you. Hear the lamentations of Imoen.'
 

Lone Wolf

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He was built like a body builder precisely because he was trying to avoid having an Elven heritage recognised.

Didn't anyone notice that his face was grafted on?

Jon Irenicus is an excellent villain. Clear motivation, boundless ambition and - ultimately - pathos. He's not trying to destroy you because he is Evil (TM), but because he wants to take the soul of a Bhaalspawn for his own, and realise his revenge on the Elves. And at the bottom of it all is an apathetic emptiness driven by tragic circumstance. He's a well realised, well voiced character, and not simply a threat to overcome.

When someone mentions Sarevok in the same breath, I can't help but laugh, even though they tried to make him a more nuanced character in ToB.

There are a handful of video games with truly compelling villains. PS:T, BG2, Fallout and a smattering of others. The best ones are always sympathetic in one way or another, while forcing the player to confront them and thereby achieve apotheosis. Usually, they're a mirror held up to the player's own actions, demanding reflection. That's what makes them memorable.

Weird huh? The writing is just standard evil wizard drivel.

It's 'standard wizard drivel' because it's meant to portray arrogance. And Irenicus' arrogance and pride were central to his character. Probably the central element - from it flowed his ambition and burning desire for vengeance instead of reconciliation.

The haughty bearing is operatic and syncs well even with his character animation (just look at the way he stands, for example).
 

Beastro

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https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12464/irenicus-stupidest-antagonist-ever-spoilers-for-bg2

I present the following evidence as proof positive that Jonaleth Irenicus is the dumbest evil mastermind ever:

0) Tries to eat the world tree and become an elven god
1) Being a mage whom sets up shop in amn
2) His first conversation in the game is with a golem.
3) Keeps nymphs in his basement - immune to charm (someone should make a penguin meme for this)
4) Doesn't pay thieves guild for services rendered
5) allows himself to be captured by an inferior attacking force
6) allows himself to be imprisoned in the geographic and cultural equivalent of colonial Australia
7) Relies upon a vampire. Is siblings with a vampire. Does not keep vampire on a leash.
8) Allows vampire sister to put CHARNAME through countless dangerous and pointless exercises that put CHARNAME in huge peril before taking what he needs.
9) After CHARNAME shows clearly heroic powers steals his soul and doesn't immediately kill him. Gives to vampire sister to play with.
10) Employes Saemon Harvarian.
11) Builds portal to underdark in his new crib's basement.
12) Makes deal with drow. Breaks deal with drow
13) Pisses off elder Silver Dragon
14) Invades hometown with demons and drow. Does not kill his ex.
15) See step 0
16) Gets killed.
17) Gets killed again in hell.
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
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Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
"Liked BG2 back when I was young. Now I'm 20-something and I've outlived it all."

I'm interested in games you play that could be far superior to BG2. I also wish I had met enlightenment at your age.

Age of Decadence
Alpha Protocol
Anachronox
Arcanum
Blackguards
Divinity:OS
The Dwarf Run
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Fallout New Vegas
Gothic 2
Morrowind
Pillars of Eternity
PST
Telepath Tactics
Underrail
Voidspire Tactics
Wizardry 8
The Witcher
The Witcher 3
Ruined it by including fedora PoE and childish humour D:OS. Otherwise a good/great list. I suspect this was on purpose to attract PoE 'haters (lol) ' like me into a trap, though.
 

Malpercio

Arcane
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Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,534
Witcher 3 lol? Play by-itself Witcher 3? Garbage combat and itemization Witcher 3 lol?

And several of these games have structural problems, like PoE having a rule-set inferior to D&D. Some games like NV, Morro, Anachronox and Planescape do some stuff superior to BG2, but the overall package in BG2 is still stronger.

What makes BG2 so great is that even its weaker aspect are still somewhat good, while offering excellent itemization, encounter design, and a variety all over the place.
 

Malpercio

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,534
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12464/irenicus-stupidest-antagonist-ever-spoilers-for-bg2

I present the following evidence as proof positive that Jonaleth Irenicus is the dumbest evil mastermind ever:

0) Tries to eat the world tree and become an elven god
1) Being a mage whom sets up shop in amn
2) His first conversation in the game is with a golem.
3) Keeps nymphs in his basement - immune to charm (someone should make a penguin meme for this)
4) Doesn't pay thieves guild for services rendered
5) allows himself to be captured by an inferior attacking force
6) allows himself to be imprisoned in the geographic and cultural equivalent of colonial Australia
7) Relies upon a vampire. Is siblings with a vampire. Does not keep vampire on a leash.
8) Allows vampire sister to put CHARNAME through countless dangerous and pointless exercises that put CHARNAME in huge peril before taking what he needs.
9) After CHARNAME shows clearly heroic powers steals his soul and doesn't immediately kill him. Gives to vampire sister to play with.
10) Employes Saemon Harvarian.
11) Builds portal to underdark in his new crib's basement.
12) Makes deal with drow. Breaks deal with drow
13) Pisses off elder Silver Dragon
14) Invades hometown with demons and drow. Does not kill his ex.
15) See step 0
16) Gets killed.
17) Gets killed again in hell.

If anything that list just proves how powerful he was. He is literally always one step ahead of you until you finally catch up with him on the tree.

Also I'm not sure why he's even listing stuff like "getting captured by spellhold" as negative, given that it was one of the best and most useful things that happened to him.
 

Atlantico

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If anything that list just proves how powerful he was. He is literally always one step ahead of you until you finally catch up with him on the tree.
The only power he had was the power of plot convenience and being written as being one step ahead.

You try to present it like it was impressive or something.
 

Malpercio

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,534
If anything that list just proves how powerful he was. He is literally always one step ahead of you until you finally catch up with him on the tree.
The only power he had was the power of plot convenience and being written as being one step ahead.

You try to present it like it was impressive or something.

What does this even mean.

Irenicus is not a real person, so of course he's "being written just ahead of you."

It only matters how well the writers did it, and they integrated it pretty well into the plot.



It's best to just put that low worm on ignore: shitposting BG2 fanboy.
Stiill can't get over being humiliated during a BG discussion, aww. :love:
 

Atlantico

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What does this even mean.
Yeah, he's not a real person, he's a character in a video game. That's not the point, and it's quite weird you'd assume anyone meant otherwise. When you wrote "that list just proves how powerful he was", I didn't take it as if you thought Jon Irenicus actually existed in the past.

He's a plot device, used to move the plot forward. That's the problem with him. Apart from him making all those stupid decisions (employing Simon Haevarian lol) He's actually not even powerful in practice. The player never actually confronts him until the end and then when it happens he's just a run of the mill mage, no instakill spells, no Magic Missiles of Doom or anything. So when looked at as not a plot device, but as a character who needs to follow the basic rules that the protagonist/player must follow, his plans, his ideas and his strategy and decisions look very stupid. Of course as a plot device he's very very powerful, in fact he can't be defeated - the writer says so.

Meeting Jonnie is always controlled by the writer, except at the end. The player has no agency when encountering Jon, so the player has no power in those situations, only the writer does. Until the end Jon is like Kai Leng is in ME3, annoying and can't be beaten because the writer says so.

So the writer gives Jon inexplicable powers that are always convenient to the plot and Jon looks awesome until the plot stops, the game finally allows you to play against this all-powerful uber-mage, but this time with the rules afforded by the gameplay and yeah.. that's an anticlimax because he's usually wielding powers that can only be granted by the writer. When he has to rely ongameplay mechanics, turns, magic missiles and actually has to put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, Jon is a pushover.
 

Malpercio

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Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,534
What are all those stupid decisions he made? People keep listing "employing Saemon" for some reason, but they never explain why it's a stupid decision. Saemon was meant to bring you to Spellhold and put a sleep potion into your soup if you didn't have Yoshimo with you. After that, he ditches him completely to Spellhold, he's not a direct subordinate of him, he's just the least shitty pirate he could fine (or rather, Saemon owned him and Bodhi one)

Allying with the drow? He didn't give a fuck about the drows, he just needed an army to invade elftown, and the drow provided one. Good as any.

Meeting Jonnie is always controlled by the writer, except at the end.]

So, like every Villain ever.

The player has no agency when encountering Jon, so the player has no power in those situations, only the writer does

You only meet Jon thrice, at the beginning, at spellhold, and at the end. You fight him both at Spellhold and the end.

The difference between Kai Leng and Irenicus is that the second doesn't feel forced. Kai Leng is a stupid villain that managed to get the upper hand for no reason, with no effort, and he looks retarded. The writers literally drop him into a scene and go "HOW AWESOME IS MY CHARACTER!!!!"

Irenicus had a plan years in the making, (and it's a relatively simple plan, which it's kinda refreshing) get soul, invade town, get tree juice, so the player doesn't like he's "cheating", it feels like he's a well planning bastard.


So the writer gives Jon inexplicable powers that are always convenient to the plot and Jon looks awesome until the plot stops, the game finally allows you to play against this all-powerful uber-mage, but this time with the rules afforded by the gameplay and yeah.. that's an anticlimax because he's usually wielding powers that can only be granted by the writer. When he has to rely ongameplay mechanics, turns, magic missiles and actually has to put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, Jon is a pushover.

So your complain is that battle is too easy lol?
 

Atlantico

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Kai Leng is a stupid villain that managed to get the upper hand for no reason, with no effort, and he looks retarded.
This I agree with. I'm gonna leave it at that, if you don't see how Irenicus is a proto-Kai Leng, then you don't.

:hero:
 

Xeon

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Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,858
Irenicus starts out great, turns to a bitch later.

Edit:
I recently read in the SoD thread in Beamdog forum, that the dreams that Irenicus shows you in BG2 are not actually from Irenicus but the taint, similar to BG1. If that is true then his cooliness[?] kinda plummets even in the early chapters.
 
Last edited:

Raziel

Educated
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Jun 18, 2016
Messages
80
What does this even mean.
Yeah, he's not a real person, he's a character in a video game. That's not the point, and it's quite weird you'd assume anyone meant otherwise. When you wrote "that list just proves how powerful he was", I didn't take it as if you thought Jon Irenicus actually existed in the past.

He's a plot device, used to move the plot forward. That's the problem with him. Apart from him making all those stupid decisions (employing Simon Haevarian lol) He's actually not even powerful in practice. The player never actually confronts him until the end and then when it happens he's just a run of the mill mage, no instakill spells, no Magic Missiles of Doom or anything. So when looked at as not a plot device, but as a character who needs to follow the basic rules that the protagonist/player must follow, his plans, his ideas and his strategy and decisions look very stupid. Of course as a plot device he's very very powerful, in fact he can't be defeated - the writer says so.

Meeting Jonnie is always controlled by the writer, except at the end. The player has no agency when encountering Jon, so the player has no power in those situations, only the writer does. Until the end Jon is like Kai Leng is in ME3, annoying and can't be beaten because the writer says so.

So the writer gives Jon inexplicable powers that are always convenient to the plot and Jon looks awesome until the plot stops, the game finally allows you to play against this all-powerful uber-mage, but this time with the rules afforded by the gameplay and yeah.. that's an anticlimax because he's usually wielding powers that can only be granted by the writer. When he has to rely ongameplay mechanics, turns, magic missiles and actually has to put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, Jon is a pushover.
I'm not sure how your point on Jon being a pushover in actual combat has any merit. If you're going to base "badassery" on that element alone, you'll have a hard time finding a video game villain that'll perform the part.
 

Atlantico

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I'm not sure how your point on Jon being a pushover in actual combat has any merit. If you're going to base "badassery" on that element alone, you'll have a hard time finding a video game villain that'll perform the part.

Sarevok was about as tough as he looked, a decent fight at the end of BG (assuming you didn't use exploits on the poor guy) - Jon was killing anyone with a snap of his fingers in cutscenes, took over an elven city, was basically an invincible self-insert of the writer (see: Kai Leng) and he's none of that when you fight him. Others have claimed he's a badass, I certainly never have.

Also: Shadow Thieves, apparently they can just storm at you in the night and take you and your party unwillingly and helpless (because, cutscene) and then you meet these Shadow Thieves in actual gameplay. Much like Jon, they're actually not much of a threat and never live up to their cutscenes. This is one of many, many dumb things about BG2.
 

Raziel

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While I can understand the disconnect one would feel between cutscene/actual combat capabilities of your foes, I still think it's a flawed argument to make.

Here's why. First there's the technical standpoint, IE games seem to make a distinction between what actually happens in cutscenes and how it directly relates to actual gameplay consequences. The lone exception to this is possibly only the end-game spells you have at your disposal as a mage in PS:T. There's definitely games out there that resolve combat/dialogue/x without resorting to the use of cutscenes. Most people rather follow the rule of cool though.

The other issue is that combat difficulty of encounters is relative to the power of your character as well as the usage of cheese, this basically means that what you describe may or may not happen. See fairy ninja with a cane of corpus in wiz7 vs anything in the game, or perhaps a better example being a kensai/mage vs pure wizard slayer.
 
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Harry Easter

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I agree with the point, that Irenicus is a bit disconnected from the rest of the overarching Bhaal-saga. Sarevok worked at least as an evil counterpart, but Irenicus just appeared, killed a few of your friends and you were supposed to hate him for that. And that's it: he does a few things, but if you wouldn't take your essence, you may not even hunt him, because there isn't much about him to hate or getting upset about him.

His essence-stealing could have been performed by Amelyssan and there it could have worked out quite well, since she is connected with your background and has a good reason to get you. If there were other half-gods (or Assimars if they even existed before in the setting) it could have been them instead of you. The whole plot, all of his villainy is build around a bit bad luck in your case.

So now, I don't think that Irenicus is a good villain, but he provides at least a reason to experience the more exciting side-plots in Amn.
 

Theldaran

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Yeah, Irenicus should have been a Bhaalspawn, but that was reserved for ToB, where you fight quite a few of them.

His motif was interesting (an elf outcast seeking power above all else, and for that interested in the Bhaal legacy) but ultimately not great.

Irenicus is outlined okay but he seems to lack something to be great. Not even when I played for the first time and enjoyed the game thoroughly did he elicit strong emotions on me. That he's offscreen most of the time doesn't help. Also, Sarevok's hired killers were way better.

If you are writing a memorable work you can't afford your villain to be mediocre. For example, I still remember how Sashka was an extreme bitch in that little book series known as "The Time Master" (Louise Cooper).
 

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