Is Irenicus a good villain?

[Athelas]

You lost me when you started listing Irenicus as an example of deep writing.

 

[Bester]

i can't emulate that feeling. i just tried. probably because when i forget things they don't seem important, more than that i don't usually think of things i forget since i have forgotten about them. [...] but maybe that's just me.

I have this quite often. I can forget that I just fought with somebody and suddenly I don't know why I'm pissed off like a bee from a rattled bee hive. It slipped my mind entirely. And then it takes me a minute to recall the thing. Then, when it suddenly comes back, a new wave of anger washes over you because you just experienced the fight all over again in your head in a tiny fraction of a second. Never had that feeling?

Probably not everyone experiences this.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

You lost me when you started listing Irenicus as an example of deep writing.

He is extremely deep. He's a character that could very well be a protagonist in a great book about a magician for example (not in the Faerun world, but in general), but he accidentally slipped from being a depressed and as a result self-centered, yet charismatic and smart protagonist into the antagonist role by going a little too far. Don't you agree? Like Elysseem (or what's her name) says in the end, if he hadn't decided to use his mortal time to torture souls out of living people and used it instead to earn back his place among his own race, it would've worked out eventually. But the injustice that he felt opened him to new levels of depression and anger that led him into a truly dark place. He ceased being the protagonist of the story when he started killing innocent people for his experiments.

 

[Reapa]

You lost me when you started listing Irenicus as an example of deep writing.

obviously i'm not a professional and i feel you are even more limited so make a better argument than mine or suck my dick.

 

[Athelas]

You lost me when you started listing Irenicus as an example of deep writing.

obviously i'm not a professional and i feel you are even more limited so make a better argument than mine or suck my dick.

Okay, here's an experiment: look up the wiki pages of both Irenicus and Minsc on the Forgotten Realms wiki (like I just did). While you'll find that Minsc's page contains information on the character's quirks, personal history and relationships with other characters, most of Irenicus' page is spent describing his appearance and how unsuually muscled he is for a mage (i.e. fanboys jerking off over the character) and technical plot descriptions of what he does in BG2. That's because he's a very broadly drawn villain, made memorably only by a fantastic voice actor. That's right, he's arguably even more one-dimensional than Minsc.

 

[Reapa]

You lost me when you started listing Irenicus as an example of deep writing.

obviously i'm not a professional and i feel you are even more limited so make a better argument than mine or suck my dick.

Okay, here's an experiment: look up the wiki pages of both Irenicus and Minsc on the Forgotten Realms wiki (like I just did). While you'll find that Minsc's page contains information on the character's quirks, personal history and relationships with other characters, most of Irenicus' page is spent describing his appearance and how unsuually muscled he is for a mage (i.e. fanboys jerking off over the character) and technical plot descriptions of what he does in BG2. That's because he's a very broadly drawn villain, made memorably only by a fantastic voice actor. That's right, he's arguably even more one-dimensional than Minsc.

you are basing your argument of bad writing on fan drama? are you sure I am the one that lost you? since i feel you're just lost.

 

[Bester]

he's arguably even more one-dimensional than Minsc.

You are very wrong. He's a tragic character. The very fact that he tried to recreate the love of his life, stubbornly, again and again, and those women only attacked him and scratched at his face in anger, it's already an experience far deeper than anything Minsc could've understood with his damaged brain.

Just imagine this one little fraction of information about him. Imagine him working for days without sleep, trying to recreate that one woman he can't live without, sweating in his laboratory, going mad, deluding himself that it would work, hoping that it would work. And then meeting her. And then the exchange that they'd have. What kind of an exchange must it have been if those women eventually went for his throat? It's a very hard rejection again. He'd relive rejection when it was the thing that hurt him the most in the first place. Imagine all the things that must've gone through his mind.

His story is a subtle one.

 

[Athelas]

you are basing your argument of bad writing on fan drama? are you sure I am the one that lost you? since i feel you're just lost.

I couldn't remember anything compelling about the character from any of my playthroughs of BG2, so I consulted the wiki. Turns out others shared my opinion.

he's arguably even more one-dimensional than Minsc.

You are very wrong. He's a tragic character. The very fact that he tried to recreate the love of his life, stubbornly, again and again, and those women only attacked him and scratched at his face in anger, it's already an experience far deeper than anything Minsc could've understood with his damaged brain.

Just imagine this one little fraction of information about him. Imagine him working for days without sleep, trying to recreate that one woman he can't live without, sweating in his laboratory, going mad, deluding himself that it would work, hoping that it would work. And then meeting her. And then the exchange that they'd have. What kind of an exchange must it have been if those women eventually went for his throat? It's a very hard rejection again. He'd relive rejection when it was the thing that hurt him the most in the first place. Imagine all the things that must've gone through his mind.

His story is a subtle one.

'Villain goes mad with grief and wants to ascend to godhood to right wrongs he suffered' plots are a dime a dozen, it's the plot of something like 90% of all jRPG's. Of course, executing it well can go a long way, but BG2 doesn't do that either, there's simply not much of substance there. It's rather telling that most of the details in your post are conjecture.

Anyway, to bring this post back remotely on-topic, I will say that's it's a shame that none of the new RPG's have voice acting as good as Irenicus', or the Black Isle RPG's of the late 90's. Despite being fairly limited, the voice overs did wonders for the atmosphere and story of those games.

 

[Bester]

'Character goes mad with grief and wants to ascend to godhood to right wrongs he suffered' plots are a dime a dozen. Nothing special about it. Of course, it's the execution that matters, but even there BG2 doesn't really stand out in any way.

Any character in any universe in any book can be described in one sentence. That is hardly a convincing argument of his simplicity. Are you saying he's not original? Again, nothing is original, just check tvtropes, it's got it all. What's your point?

 

[Karwelas]

Reapa Athelas Jesus Christ, both of you act like children standard Codexians. Irenicus have some good aspects, yes - I like him as simple villain, mostly due to amazing actor that voice him. (both potato and english version) But as Alh said, it isn't any amazing deep type of villiain - he was just hurt by his love, yeah. He was going through hell only becouse his love.

I actually don't know any amazing villiain from any game, but those that made best impression are:
Trias - interesting concept of fallen angel. I like him and his character, but again, he isn't anything amazing. I just have special place for him in my heart.
Ravela - old, mad witch that was locked forever becouse she wanted to free Lady of Pain. Everything she did, even in good faith, ultimatly was cause of terrible things. (I mean mostly Nameless case) At the end, she only want him to stay with her.
Probably best one from Planescape and most evil on my list - Pragmatic Nameless. That fucking motherfucker. You can say "Wait, he was a villian? When?" Well, maybe fucking when he fooled poor Dak'kon, broke his faith, doomed entire city of his race and forged Circle of Zerthimon only to have Karah near him. Maybe when he fucked up Deionarra and make her live forever in pain. (That fucking sensory stone)

Actually, Thief villains. Karas and Trickster are both other aspects of forever conflict - nature/magic vs technology, pulled to extreme. Karas is so fucked up about nature he want to melt everything that lives. Trickster... well, he is just god of nature and magic. And fucking mean motherfucker.

There are some more, but I don't remember too many of those right now. Give me some time.

 

[Reapa]

I couldn't remember anything compelling about the character from any of my playthroughs of BG2, so I consulted the wiki. Turns out others shared my opinion.

'Villain goes mad with grief and wants to ascend to godhood to right wrongs he suffered' plots are a dime a dozen, it's the plot of something like 90% of all jRPG's. Of course, executing it well can go a long way, but BG2 doesn't do that either, there's simply not much of substance there. It's rather telling that most of the details in your post are conjecture.

i was asked a question about style. i never said irenicus had a lot to say. i just said what he said was well written. and only in the context of a game introduction. i am not prepared to analyze irenicus as a character right now. and you don't really make any real arguments as to what it is you're missing from his story or why it's not well written.

 

[kwanzabot]

i have a feeling alot of people really like irenicus because they played bg2 when they were like 12/13/young and

"i will not be contained"
"i will not be controlled"

and it made them feel badass, i know i thought he was kind of badass when i played bg2 as a kid but when i replayed it years after i thought he was kinda cringe


there's plenty of way worse villains though, i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

both had good voice actors though

 

[Grotesque]

both had good voice actors though

Sarevok had the voice of a slightly retarded bully who waits at the corner for kids to steal their lunch money so he can buy wood polish for himself to inhale.

 

[Azarkon]

i have a feeling alot of people really like irenicus because they played bg2 when they were like 12/13/young and

"i will not be contained"
"i will not be controlled"

and it made them feel badass, i know i thought he was kind of badass when i played bg2 as a kid but when i replayed it years after i thought he was kinda cringe


there's plenty of way worse villains though, i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

both had good voice actors though

Judging by the public's reception to comic book movies - which are full of characters similar to Irenicus - and age studies, you can't just argue that people simply "grow out of" Irenicus style power fantasies. A wide variety of research has shown that the geeks of thirty years ago have simply become thirty years older geeks today. Stating that you could only enjoy Irenicus back when you were 12-13 is a mistake. That might be the case on an individual basis, but it's not the case across the market. Why else do you think Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition sold over a million copies?

We have this concept of age and "maturity" that is incredibly out dated with respect to the actual population of power fantasy consumers today. The average video game player is 37 years old. Take that in for a bit, and then look at the top selling games. Just because they're getting older, does not indicate they're moving on to Tolstoy.

 

[sstacks]

Judging by the public's reception to comic book movies - which are full of characters similar to Irenicus - and age studies, you can't just argue that people simply "grow out of" Irenicus style power fantasies. A wide variety of research has shown that the geeks of thirty years ago have simply become thirty years older geeks today. Stating that you could only enjoy Irenicus back when you were 12-13 is a mistake. That might be the case on an individual basis, but it's not the case across the market. Why else do you think Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition sold over a million copies?

We have this concept of age and "maturity" that is incredibly out dated with respect to the actual population of power fantasy consumers today. The average video game player is 37 years old. Take that in for a bit, and then look at the top selling games. Just because they're getting older, does not indicate they're moving on to Tolstoy.

Well said and reasoned. You're not allowed to do that. This is the Codex.

 

[kwanzabot]

i have a feeling alot of people really like irenicus because they played bg2 when they were like 12/13/young and

"i will not be contained"
"i will not be controlled"

and it made them feel badass, i know i thought he was kind of badass when i played bg2 as a kid but when i replayed it years after i thought he was kinda cringe


there's plenty of way worse villains though, i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

both had good voice actors though

Judging by the public's reception to comic book movies - which are full of characters similar to Irenicus - and age studies, you can't just argue that people simply "grow out of" Irenicus style power fantasies. A wide variety of research has shown that the geeks of thirty years ago have simply become thirty years older geeks today. Stating that you could only enjoy Irenicus back when you were 12-13 is a mistake. That might be the case on an individual basis, but it's not the case across the market. Why else do you think Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition sold over a million copies?

We have this concept of age and "maturity" that is incredibly out dated with respect to the actual population of power fantasy consumers today. The average video game player is 37 years old. Take that in for a bit, and then look at the top selling games. Just because they're getting older, does not indicate they're moving on to Tolstoy.

i have no idea why you're quoting me about non functioning retard manchildren like i care lol

i liked the bg2 story when i was young

i think it's cringeworthy not that i'm in my mid 20's

i can't even imagine someone 30+ playing that shit unless they're borderline retarded or easily amused

 

[Trashos]

i have a feeling alot of people really like irenicus because they played bg2 when they were like 12/13/young and

"i will not be contained"
"i will not be controlled"

and it made them feel badass, i know i thought he was kind of badass when i played bg2 as a kid but when i replayed it years after i thought he was kinda cringe


there's plenty of way worse villains though, i liked serevok in bg1 alot more though, felt alot more menacing to me, like how the plot was more intricate/low key and less in your face grim drama

both had good voice actors though

Judging by the public's reception to comic book movies - which are full of characters similar to Irenicus - and age studies, you can't just argue that people simply "grow out of" Irenicus style power fantasies. A wide variety of research has shown that the geeks of thirty years ago have simply become thirty years older geeks today. Stating that you could only enjoy Irenicus back when you were 12-13 is a mistake. That might be the case on an individual basis, but it's not the case across the market. Why else do you think Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition sold over a million copies?

We have this concept of age and "maturity" that is incredibly out dated with respect to the actual population of power fantasy consumers today. The average video game player is 37 years old. Take that in for a bit, and then look at the top selling games. Just because they're getting older, does not indicate they're moving on to Tolstoy.

You guys are conveniently remembering the worst quote by Irenicus. But he had much better moments:

"You rest each night uneasy. Yes, you are weary. You struggle daily. It will not end, you know. Not until you acknowledge what you are. You walk as a mortal, taking no advantage from your heritage, from your talents within. So many things of flesh are greater than you. Walk among them, these beasts that are less than you are. See their strength; see how easily you fall to their muscle and skill.
Why do you stand for this? Why do you submit to the flesh, when death is bred in your bones? Do you realize the power you might hold? When the world of flesh is beneath you, even creatures mysterious and magical will fall!
Follow, and receive the gift you are owed by the blood in your veins.
Follow, if only to protect the weak that fell because of you. "

"Life... is strength. This is not to be contested; it seems logical enough. You live; you affect the world around you.
This woman lives and has strength of a sort. She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered. She was well respected, her farm was prosperous and her children were well fed. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is dead. Her land will be divided, her children will move on, and she will be forgotten. She lived a good life, but she had no power. She was a slave to death."

 

[Doktor Best]

Hes just trying to sound sophisticated by shitposting. Irenicus was a goddamn slamdunk of a villain.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

You guys are conveniently remembering the worst quote by Irenicus. But he had much better moments:

"You rest each night uneasy. Yes, you are weary. You struggle daily. It will not end, you know. Not until you acknowledge what you are. You walk as a mortal, taking no advantage from your heritage, from your talents within. So many things of flesh are greater than you. Walk among them, these beasts that are less than you are. See their strength; see how easily you fall to their muscle and skill.
Why do you stand for this? Why do you submit to the flesh, when death is bred in your bones? Do you realize the power you might hold? When the world of flesh is beneath you, even creatures mysterious and magical will fall!
Follow, and receive the gift you are owed by the blood in your veins.
Follow, if only to protect the weak that fell because of you. "

"Life... is strength. This is not to be contested; it seems logical enough. You live; you affect the world around you.
This woman lives and has strength of a sort. She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered. She was well respected, her farm was prosperous and her children were well fed. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is dead. Her land will be divided, her children will move on, and she will be forgotten. She lived a good life, but she had no power. She was a slave to death."

I am playing BG2 alone for Jon Irenicus. I never got to finish it back when I was little but now as I did with Planescape Torment I will finish it once and for all. But I have to thank Pillars of Eternity for making me want to come back to BG2 and PS:T

 

[kwanzabot]

Hes just trying to sound sophisticated by shitposting. Irenicus was a goddamn slamdunk of a villain.

maybe if you're a little kid or someone with cerebral palsy

 

[Theldaran]

"Liked BG2 back when I was young. Now I'm 20-something and I've outlived it all."

I'm interested in games you play that could be far superior to BG2. I also wish I had met enlightenment at your age.

 

[Bubbles]

"Liked BG2 back when I was young. Now I'm 20-something and I've outlived it all."

I'm interested in games you play that could be far superior to BG2. I also wish I had met enlightenment at your age.

Age of Decadence
Alpha Protocol
Anachronox
Arcanum
Blackguards
Divinity:OS
The Dwarf Run
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Fallout New Vegas
Gothic 2
Morrowind
Pillars of Eternity
PST
Telepath Tactics
Underrail
Voidspire Tactics
Wizardry 8
The Witcher
The Witcher 3

 

[Reapa]

I like how this thread is about anything but numenera

 

[Irenaeus III]

It's really bizarre.

 

[Fry]

We're in the doldrums between beta updates.

 

[l3loodAngel]

"Liked BG2 back when I was young. Now I'm 20-something and I've outlived it all."

I'm interested in games you play that could be far superior to BG2. I also wish I had met enlightenment at your age.

Age of Decadence
Alpha Protocol
Anachronox
Arcanum
Blackguards
Divinity:OS
The Dwarf Run
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Fallout New Vegas
Gothic 2
Morrowind
Pillars of Eternity
PST
Telepath Tactics
Underrail
Voidspire Tactics
Wizardry 8
The Witcher
The Witcher 3

Fixed what I could...

A joke list or a list of a joker?