Investing in stores in Oblivion

[LlamaGod]

combat system = missed opporunity
RAI = missed opportunity
Skill Perks = Missed Opportunity
Investing in stores = missed ...opportunity

'Half-Assed' better suits those features.

 

[VenomByte]

It feels to me as though Beth have made crappy implementations of various features (skill perks, investing, mounts, I could go on) just in order to check a few boxes, and fuck the actual gameplay value of the changes they've made.

They can say they have skill perks. Great. at an incredibly basic and likely inflexible level.

They have mounts which are nothing more than 'something cool to own' and of virtually no real use, given the fast travel system and lack of mounted combat.

Investing in a store so they can buy more off you later? Oh please. That's nothing more than a blatant attempt to please the powergaming uber-loot fanatics who want merchants to have more money so they can sell unique artifacts to them...


The 'improvements' we are seeing in the series are a direct response to the 'What did the toe-faced retards complain about in Morrowind?'

Getting lost? Check! We have a quest compass
Merchants too poor? Check! We can give them money to make them rich.
Combat too dull? Check! Much more like quake with swords now.
No mounted combat? Chec-..Fuck! Well hey, we tried and you still get horsies.

They are directly addressing the console-kiddies grievances. That, IMO, is not the same thing as trying to improve the series.

 

[Solik]

This is a useful gameplay mechanic, particularly given that you're limited to one investment per merchant. It is not realistic or immersive, but there's a certain elegance to it I think. I was never expecting to get any sort of trading game out of Elder Scrolls, so I can't really say that I'm disappointed by its simplicity. However, if this feature remains something only available to 100-skill Mercantile characters, it's also something I'll never use. I don't think I hit 100 in a single skill in Morrowind or any of its expansions, and I put well over 150 hours into those and mods.

Consider what the original team might have chosen to do, given that they had functioning banks in Daggerfall, and plenty of ambition to actually expand the game mechanics

They would have made an auctioning system that worked a third of the time, crashed a third of the time, and resulted in incomprehensible coin returns (way too small or way too large) a third of the time. And you would have been able to prompty steal back your auctioned item and sell it again to the same people.

 

[obediah]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

gimme a break! Plenty of areas have been improved.

Quantity of bloom has been improved.
Ability to run on an XBOX 360 has increased drasticly over previous titles.
munchkin-ability has been improved.
the moron training wheels have been beefed up considerably.
graphix r better.
achievement system has seem much development
illiterate player support has improved.
sword combat for action-rpg fans has improved
NPC scripts have improved
compass diameter has imrpoved infinitely
John Woo Score has improved


Now just because none of these get your junk throbbing is no reason to dismiss Oblivion as improvementless.

 

[Lumpy]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't know. It seems inelegant, and kind of weird. Nevertheless, its a somewhat useful solution to a common problem in MW. But "investing" certainly invokes more than this actually is, its just an inelegant econmoy fix.

 

[Lumpy]

This is a useful gameplay mechanic, particularly given that you're limited to one investment per merchant

No, you aren't. If you would be, it would be completly idiotic.
It still is idiotic though. Not only do you give NPCs money as a gift, but you also have to be an expert trader to do so.

 

[bryce777]

The basic problem is that the prices defy the laws of economics. Sure, after you sell one set of daedric plate, maybe it can be shipped off to a rich provincial governor, but after the 20th? They should cost most like a few thousand at most not hundreds of thousands...the roman empire was sold entirely for less than a million at one point.

 

[VenomByte]

"inelegant economy fix" I think is a flattering way of describing it. And the word 'fix' really shouldn't be there. I don't really see how it fixes anything... It provides a money sink, yes... but as a means to greater exploitation of the over-valued stacks of loot which were all-too easy to come by in Morrowind.

If they've reduced the ludicrous amounts of easy to obtain high value loot, or prevented merchants being so easy to exploit, or made stealing significantly harder, then those are economy fixes.

This is just a gimmick...

 

[Lumpy]

Oblivion skill perks:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... &p=4711652
They might be fake though.

 

[VenomByte]

Hang on.... I'm not sure I folllow this correctly.

Does this mean I cannot cast any 'shield' spells until I have 100 alteration?

 

[Lumpy]

Hang on.... I'm not sure I folllow this correctly.

Does this mean I cannot cast any 'shield' spells until I have 100 alteration?

They are most likely fake.

I'm gonna say it's fake. I noticed this part.

According to the guide, you can cast any spell you want at any time. However, casting spells above your perk cost a significant amout more of magicka to cast, have a higher chance to fail, and will not be available for spellmaking.

The screenshots on the magicka page show two pictures side by side, one has unlocked greater summons and one has not. Both have the spell "Conjure Daedroth" which summons a daedroth for 60 seconds. Without the perk, its costs 150 magicka, and the character only has a 50 percent (ish) chance of casting it. With the perk, it costs 75 magicka and has a 100 percent chance of being successful.

As we know spells have no chance of failure anymore, their effectiveness is the only thing that changes depending on level. And i think you couldn't even cast high level spells without a high enough skill level.

Although it's possible that it was just poor wording on his part?

As for the jump spell being listed when it's no longer in, such a small mistake wouldn't be uncommon in the guide.

 

[Thrawn05]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

No. I'm just stating that I have not heard one good case for OB. That's all.

 

[Lumpy]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

No. I'm just stating that I have not heard one good case for OB. That's all.

Better quests? More involving guild questlines? A better combat system? Radiant AI? More unique NPCs?

 

[Thrawn05]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

No. I'm just stating that I have not heard one good case for OB. That's all.

Better quests? More involving guild questlines? A better combat system? Radiant AI? More unique NPCs?

Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, and Nope. Sorry. I'm not brainwashed like you. :D

 

[Excrément]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

No. I'm just stating that I have not heard one good case for OB. That's all.

OK so I will do a list of what is better in Oblivion compared to Daggerfall andMorrowind (I didn't play Arena).

Better than Daggerfall & Morrowind:
RAI
Graphics
Skill Perks
Combat system
Stealth system
Misc Quests storyline and Dark Brotherhood quests storyline
Less bugs
NPCs animations
Armor restrictions (for stealth and magicka)

sometimes you have to admit there are improvements.

 

[Lumpy]

Just analyze the game as a whole and admit when they are some improvements compared to the previous titles (from arena to morrowind)

There are none.

O RLY? Is that another mindless bashing argument, similar to the moronic "Oblivion will not be a game" one?

No. I'm just stating that I have not heard one good case for OB. That's all.

Better quests? More involving guild questlines? A better combat system? Radiant AI? More unique NPCs?

Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, and Nope. Sorry. I'm not brainwashed like you. :D

So being brainwashed = being optimistical, and not being brainwashed means thinking a game will suck because certain things weren't proven although they couldn't be, and even although some were. The quests written about in PC Gamer were much better than Morrowind's.

 

[Solik]

Don't waste your words. You cannot solve irrational hatred of fanatics with simple logic. Haven't you been hearing the words of the Islamofascists lately?

It's funny. Sometimes, one would think Bethesda was in the market of making religious texts or critical national defense components instead of entertainment software, given how riled up people get about it.

 

[bryce777]

Don't waste your words. You cannot solve irrational hatred of fanatics with simple logic. Haven't you been hearing the words of the Islamofascists lately?

It's funny. Sometimes, one would think Bethesda was in the market of making religious texts or critical national defense components instead of entertainment software, given how riled up people get about it.

That's funny. Fan-atics.

A pretty good description of your retarded self when it comes to oblivion. A game so many people doggedly defend based on...? I don't know what. There are so many things about it we know that throw it squarely outside anything I can imagine it being fun to deal with, and yet there is some magic x factor no one can quantify but they are sure is there. Some intrinsic, magic greatness that can't be rationally explained to anyone who isn't in the cult....

 

[Excrément]

Don't waste your words. You cannot solve irrational hatred of fanatics with simple logic. Haven't you been hearing the words of the Islamofascists lately?

It's funny. Sometimes, one would think Bethesda was in the market of making religious texts or critical national defense components instead of entertainment software, given how riled up people get about it.

That's funny. Fan-atics.

A pretty good description of your retarded self when it comes to oblivion. A game so many people doggedly defend based on...? I don't know what. There are so many things about it we know that throw it squarely outside anything I can imagine it being fun to deal with, and yet there is some magic x factor no one can quantify but they are sure is there. Some intrinsic, magic greatness that can't be rationally explained to anyone who isn't in the cult....

Thrawn 05 didn't give any answers.
The difference it's that some people in this forum who are praising Obliivon admit there are some features they don't like, Oblivion bashers never admit anything. There are always saying all the game sucks.

I can understand you don't like Oblivion (I can also understand some people don't like Fallout), but not admit some features are good or that there are some improvements compared to Morrowind or Daggerfall is just hypocrisy.

 

[bryce777]

Don't waste your words. You cannot solve irrational hatred of fanatics with simple logic. Haven't you been hearing the words of the Islamofascists lately?

It's funny. Sometimes, one would think Bethesda was in the market of making religious texts or critical national defense components instead of entertainment software, given how riled up people get about it.

That's funny. Fan-atics.

A pretty good description of your retarded self when it comes to oblivion. A game so many people doggedly defend based on...? I don't know what. There are so many things about it we know that throw it squarely outside anything I can imagine it being fun to deal with, and yet there is some magic x factor no one can quantify but they are sure is there. Some intrinsic, magic greatness that can't be rationally explained to anyone who isn't in the cult....

Thrawn 05 didn't give any answers.
The difference it's that some people in this forum who are praising Obliivon admit there are some features they don't like, Oblivion bashers never admit anything. There are always saying all the game sucks.

I can understand you don't like Oblivion (I can also understand some people don't like Fallout), but not admit some features are good or that there are some improvements compared to Morrowind or Daggerfall is just hypocrisy.

Well, I can see where you are coming from in a sense, but I just don't think the 'tangible' changes...the quantifiable ones,a s it were, really seem positive.

I suppose the radiant AI is something you would have to see to determine if it is good or not, but I am skeptical. It sounds kind of gimmicky. As for the physics, I just don't think it adds anything - whether you have a cool 'real' physics engine or not, you can still have rats stuck under tables, or hams bouncing around and going crazy. If they are no longer stuck then that is a real improvement, but it is not one that likely will affect the experience dramatically.

Aside from that, I can't see any real changes I might consider positive at all. Some people might like a more simplified combat system and elimination of a tohit roll, for example, but I doubt most rpg players feel that way....

 

[Blahblah Talks]

You can't fix the economy in a game with out removing the rapid rate of expansion of the money supply. In this case, the money supply is being expanded in two ways: 1) Mobs drop phat lewt. 2) Merchants spawn gold.

Everytime you kill a Golden Saint or other high level monster, they drop tens or hundreds of thousand worth of equipment. The fact that they then respawn means there is no limit to the amount of money (be it in actual gold or in equipment) in the economy. Having merchants respawn with large amounts of gold (like Creeper or the Mud Crab, or an "invested" merchant in OB) is only going to exacerbate the problem.

This is not a new problem to games obviously, and has been dealt with by MMOs in a variety of ways. As described in this thread, I don't see how this perk will begin to address the problem at all. If anything, it will make it worse, since every time you invest in a merchant you increase the rate at which the money supply expands.

One possible solution is to have a very accelerated item deterioration rate. Or make armorer's hammers/repairing cost a lot more, probably based on the items base value. It should be more expensive to repair an ebony sword than an iron one.

 

[Lumpy]

Bryce, I often criticize Oblivion, and I can get along well with people who dislike it. I hate extremists, on the other hand, should they hate or love Oblivion with a passion, idiotically ignoring any facts.
The quests shown are certainly better than Morrowind's. They ought to be, since there are less this time around. Some don't make an awful lot of sense, like the Mages Guild ones, but the PC Gamer ones were great.
And obviously, unless they fired half of their staff, why would they have less than half as many quests as Morrowind had, if not because they spent more time on each one?

 

[elander_]

It's like Bethesda refuses to add a logical method of selling expensive stuff, and puts crap like Creeper or Investing instead.

You are starting to see one of the big problems with these new devs. Their games are full of unnatural and illogical shit that breaks with the sense of immersion.

I'd love to see opposed merchant guilds, that have "FedEx" quests constituting about half of their bulk, but due to the generic nature of "merchants" as opposed to mages, thieves, fighters, assassins, there are a variety of ways to go about getting the items they request, which may or may not be unique.

Competition among different merchants would be the right way to make this stuff work. A good economy doesn't need to be a full simulation to be fun. How the hell was those Amiga and Spectrum games so fun? Unfortunatly it isn't in Petes short book of gameplay that sells.

 

[Quigs]

H2H straight damage, or fatigue as before?