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Inventory - limitations or not?

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
A loot system should be coherent and balanced in itself. Doesnt matter if its infinite like in gothic, but the game also gives you quite a hard time to gain enough money to buy the good shit (aslong as you dont exploit), or it balances currency income with a weight/inventory limit. A game is shit when im forced to spend too much playtime to loot (bethesda), gives you too much shit you can carry without any limitations and therefor showers you with gold, or forces you into tedious micromanagement because it wants you to loot all the crap, but doesnt give you the opportunity to.

Dont really have any preferences there. It must be gud, thats all.
 

Gnidrologist

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is cold
Limiting inventory space/weight adds to the challenge of the game because you have to carefully consider what to bring with you
In a sirious tactical games like Jagged Alliance 2 or Rainbob Six/OP Flashpoint, maybe, not in rpgees imo. Especially the open world ones, where there's monetary economy. Only only in semi-pseudo rpgs like Deus Ex series what you said is relevant.
No, when playing these games/mods you just don't do that and therefore can't easily afford the nice sniper rifle.
YES i do that, because the main incentive in any RPG, unless it's Planescape:Torment, is getting better (with or without your the little help of your friends). Getting better means acquiring better gear. In linear game, where you have to choose from limited gear options, like DX series, you take what you think you'll be using, but in open world all the stuff lies THERE ALL THE FUCKING TIME so it's hard to resist hoarding all the shit stuff, selling it for shit moneys and, when accumulated enough, buying that brand new weapon to feel better about yourself and see how formerly formidable foes get squashed in the new circumstances. In original fallouts that was one of the high points for me. Dismantling formerly formidable gangsters with my newly acquired sniper rifle from afar.
Low inventory space is a great way to balance a game out, that nice legendary battle armor? better get big bro and dump some points into that Strength, Constitution, Power stat or settle POS leather.
But that's exactly what Gothic games did. You could, for example, acquire the best two-handed sword in the G2:NoTR at level 1 if you wanted to, but it would be useless until you're like level 25 at least. And i takes no charge for just lying in your inventory till then.
Low Inventory allows more character choice when twinking your toon adding more choice and consequences to the equation making different types of player builds much different in execution.
That only works for mission based games, where you have a ''briefing'' before every mission and choose what weapons you'll choose for each of your mercs. In a single player rpg, especially the one where you play lone character, it's irrelevant.
A low strength warrior who relies on good AC , high dodging compared to high strength character who not only packs the BFS but allows an assortment of gear and weaponry to compensate for his shit AC and paltry Accuracy. Got a firebomb to hit those hard to hit fast moving rogues on the flank and carries a spare crossbow to counter range abusing enemies or enemies to strong to kill using brute force alone.
Again will use NW as a benchmark here. You see, the low strength char is heavily nerfed in all aspects here, because even stealthy ninja types need expensive gear to be effective at higher levels in NW, which means they need a LOT of money. Obviously the later type will have no problem hoarding shit and sell it to all sorts of vendors, including traveling ones, while the ninja-cartographist dude will never have anything to sell, because all he can carry is the vital stuff for his survival. Which in turn means he needs to make tedious stuff dragging. The implants from the azn doctor makes craving for money even more serious.
Less inventory => less items to manage => less micromanagement
Vice versa. No, really, are you fucking dumbfuck. The less inventory space you have, the more micro-management is there to be done. Fire up JA2 ffs.
How much micro management of inventory did you make in Gothic games? None.
It's a no-brainer - a system with meaningful tradeoffs, but less tedium VS larping a vacuum cleaner and scooping up all the clutter and shit.
DraQ, you're intelligent person most of the time, but you have a talent to be total dumbshit at times.
Most open world games ARE encouraging to scoop up all the weird clutter that lies around and in case of Ebryo games it's even more pronounced. Yes, i know, you can play as solemn monk, who only relies on his faith and fists, but come on.. NW just invites you to hoard hoard hoard and hoard. Especially if you're repair guy like i am. All these crap metals weight more than a crate of miniguns. To use them effectively under inventory restrictions i'd have to constantly fast travel between current place and my ''safehouse'' that has all the equipment and containers (usually the first town - what's'it's'name). And i haven't even tried hardcore mode + skilling survivalist branch. Think there would be even more problems then.

I dunno. I like challenge that is directly posed via ACTION in any sort of game. Gothic games, for example, were very challenging for a first time player at least. Challenge that comes from ability to overcome trite routine is another thing. Challenge for accountants.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Muh realism arguments are retarded; RL ''adventures'' aside from caring shitload of gear and loot had to gather wood for fire, clean their clothes, polish their weapons and take crap... wait they had /mules/slaves/squires for former three things :lol:; on the other hand PoE magic bag is cheap and force you to steal all which is not nailed to floor so good mechanism to hmm... balance realism with fun would be to include two inventories one based on what modern Combat kit is which is:

This list was compiled by LTC Hugh F. Foster III (Ret.) Using the sources listed at the end.




Equipment, Rifleman

Weight in Pounds
Source


Rifle, M1

10.20 (loaded)

1

Sling, M1

.53

1

Cleaning kit, M1

.53

1

Cartridge belt, M1923

1.44

1

Ammo: 10 x 8-rd clips

5.31 (in cartridge belt)

1

Ammo: bandolier w/6 x 8-rd clips (x2)

6.74 (3.37 each)

1

Bayonet, M1 w/ M7 scabbard

1.56

1

Grenade, MK II, frag. (x2)

2.62 (1.31 each)

1

Hatchet M1910 or saw

1.50 (est. weight)

9

or pick/mattock Entrenching
M1910 w/handle

2.25 (est. weight)

9

Pistol, captured

2.00 (est. weight)

4
= 32.52

Common clothing

+ 30.52

Common equipment

+ 18.98

Rifleman’s load

= 82.02




Equipment, BAR Gunner

Weight in Pounds
Source


BAR

20.84 (loaded)

1

Sling, M1

.53

1

Cleaning kit, M1

.53

1

Cartridge belt, M1937

1.88

1

Ammo: 12 x 20-rd mags

18.36 (in cartridge belt)

1

Trench knife, M3, w/ scabbard

.93

1

Grenade, MK II, frag. (x2)

2.62 (1.31 each)

1

Hatchet or saw

1.50 (est. weight)

9

Pistol, captured

2.00 (est. weight)

4

= 49.19

Common clothing

+ 30.52

Common equipment

+ 18.98

BAR Gunner’s load

= 98.69

http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/General_Knowlege/combatload.htm


The second inventory would be all the rest with option to send it to HQ/known merchant to be converted for Gold/Iron/Caps/Zion bax... via Comrade The Brazilian Slaughter provided mules, trucks or transport planes:

0000058.jpg


With random encounters of Bandits/MPs/Journalists/Tax Collectors which could intercept your loot.... and to be either fought or bribed/convinced to let us pass like in this movie about Colombian Party of Adventurers:



[Intimidation/Mercantile] Plata o Plomo Senores? :positive::hero:
 
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T. Reich

Arcane
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,714
Location
not even close
Neanderthal and Doktor Best, IMO, got the right idea. Inventory management is a party of the overall game design and balance, and can't be thrown in the game without consideration of how it impacts (or is impacted by) other aspects of the game.
A lot of modern "RPGs" go by the numbers and seem to simply add the inventory system "because RPGs have one". I can't really remember any golden oldie CRPG where a player would be forced in hoarding obscene amounts of "loot".
I blame the dumbfuck crafting systems:smug:.

Meanwhile, a good inventory system always took the overal lgame balance in consideration:
1. Mission-based games usually had the very limited inventory, since it both made sense in-universe (there's only so much shit you will need in a given mission) and from the game balance standpoint (whatever limited gear you take are the tools to aid in mission completion - give a player too many, and the game becomes trivial and boring).
2. Survival horror games have a very pronounced inventory managment aspect as well - you're supposed to be limited in resources in a hostile environment, which promotes the appropriate atmosphere.
3. A lot of adventure games didn't have any inventory limits because item/environment interaction puzzles were a big part of those. Not to mention that usually the amount of interactive items one could pick up was strictly limited, so the inventory would almost never become bloated.
4. A lot of action games have a very limited inventory that forces a player to perform within a certain set of conditions, or to stick to one specific game strategy.
5. Shooters managed the inventory in terms of limited power-ups and ammo, as well as by giving out weapons (and sometimes upgrades) at specific points of time. And by the end of the game, when the player would finally be expected to be loaded with ammo/power-ups and all weapons, the (good) game would usually up the difficulty and try to force the player to utilise several weapons and to consume the power-ups.

Unlimited inventory could be feasibly implemented in RPGs as well - in Gothics you had limited sources of income (at first), so it made sense to pick up everything, and the usable hi-end gear was stat/story-locked anyway to prevent possible abuse.
In other games, you would have a very large inventory, but it would still force you to come back to town from dungeoneering from time to time, which provided breaks in gameplay.
Limited inentory could work as well, but it was usually moderated by meaningful stats and the limited amount of (sellable/usable) loot that could be picked up.
 

Xathrodox86

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
760
Location
Nuln's labyrinth
I like realistic inventory, based on slots/space and not carry limit. JA2 1.13 had probably the best one I ever saw. Stalker as well, altough it's not an RPG.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
If it has no further impact on gameplay other than "you need to travel back and forth to sell your crap" I actually cheat myself more carrying capacity whenever possible :3

This. In b4 "b-b-but you're not supposed to do that, you must hurry to save the vault" larpers.

If a game makes me need money, and showers me with loot to sell, trying to inconvenience me with multiple pawn shop trips is a lost cause.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
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Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
This is go back to the deep deep depth of gamer's psyche: Are you a fucking packrat or not?

Because if you are one, some big inventory so you could gather the loot is a good thing. Or some good method to sort the loot (Hammer & Sickle as a good example). Or some place to present the loot.

Of course, if you are not one, then all that shit just mean you get distracted from the real business of gaming which is pew pew bang bang.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Terra da Garoa
Depends on the type of game mostly, and how well-developed itemization is. System Shock 2 and some blobbers work well with very limited inventories, forcing you to choose on the fly what's more important. Choosing between a powerful gun with few bullets, health packs or a melee weapon is part of the "survival" experience. If all you have are linear Sawyerian upgrades, then who cares. Just discard +1 sword, grab +2 sword.

I like always having choices (and hoarding shit), so I'm a fan of infinite stashes + a very limited character inventory, possibly with tetris or specific slots based on your bag or whatever. Weight-only works well, but I also enjoy slot-based, like what you have in 7.62 HC and Marauder:

rbCNpLJ.jpg


Do I take a huge mine detector for safety or keep another weapon to repair/sell later? These kind of choices is why inventory limitation is cool.

I remember fondly of the early Resident Evil games too... hell, even RE5, that 2009 popamole game about punching rocks has a more restrictive inventory management that most RPGs today.
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
NEO Scavenger did indepth inventory management right. It proved that realistic and detailed inventory management can be fun. You start with nothing but your two hands to carry stuff with. Eventually you'll find clothing with pockets, bags, backpacks and even stuff like shopping carts to drag your extra loot around. The murderhobo experience has never been truer!

You know the system is great when finding an intact backpack fills you with more joy than finding a shotgun would. :happytrollboy:

Would love to see a system like that extended to a full-length RPG: the player starts with nothing except some clothes with pockets and slowly works his way towards bags of holding / hammerspace. Inventory management could be a well-developed part of character advancement.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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<sperg>
Imagine a game where character has no inventory of their own, just equip slots, but equipped items can also work as containers, each with their own inventory space OR hotkeyable slots. For example a belt could have a number of small inventory spaces representing pouches as well as quickly accessible weapon slots.
Bonus points for not being able to carry everything after you strip buttnaked.
More bonus points for ability to quickly and cleanly discard and reacquire pretty much everything you have.
</sperg>
Basically this- http://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.ph...extreme-inventory-and-item-limitations.95353/

And yeah, it'd make for a hell of a tense game.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
A good inventory is basically a careful balance of 3 things:

How much item hoarding the PC is expected or encouraged to participate in
How many things the PC needs to carry in order to operate their skills and abilities (potions, arrows, reagents etc)
A convenient and integrated system for viewing and sorting all the above things



I find it extremely questionable when a developer doesn't use some form of inventory limitation. It's a warning sign that they're more interested in emulating a different genre or going for some kind of cinematic experience than a full-bodied RPG.

Echoing mindx2 I also like the organic feel of the Ultima 7 inventory in the way that it was one of the few systems that felt like you were rummaging through a backpack. It does become frustrating after a while though. The fact that inventories were separate on each party memeber and you could use as many sub-containers as you wanted went a long way to help with this IMO.


Still, it's a very simple solution for most of these hoarding simulators. Don't allow people to sell random junk. People will stop picking it up. Magic
 

Ellef

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NEO Scavenger did indepth inventory management right. It proved that realistic and detailed inventory management can be fun. You start with nothing but your two hands to carry stuff with. Eventually you'll find clothing with pockets, bags, backpacks and even stuff like shopping carts to drag your extra loot around. The murderhobo experience has never been truer!

You know the system is great when finding an intact backpack fills you with more joy than finding a shotgun would. :happytrollboy:

Would love to see a system like that extended to a full-length RPG: the player starts with nothing except some clothes with pockets and slowly works his way towards bags of holding / hammerspace. Inventory management could be a well-developed part of character advancement.

I've pointed NEO out before to people that say inventory management is bad. Maybe it only works in non walking simulator loot-athons, but resource management is a big part of what makes games fun; including inventory.
 

Alienman

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I'm with Xathrodox86 on this one. Inventory with some sense of realism is really nice. But I also like weight limitation though.
I understand why many of you don't like any kind of limitation, considering how many of you are hoarders :) But for an example PoE went total opposite. You can loot everything with no penalty at all, making you richer than the duke himself half-way through the game.
 

DeN DarK

Educated
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Dec 23, 2015
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Whitestone One, First Throne, Forty Forties
Weight limits are better than grid, but weight limit + grid could allow mass/volume tradeoffs and nifty compartmentalized inventory.

<sperg>
Imagine a game where character has no inventory of their own, just equip slots, but equipped items can also work as containers, each with their own inventory space OR hotkeyable slots. For example a belt could have a number of small inventory spaces representing pouches as well as quickly accessible weapon slots.
Bonus points for not being able to carry everything after you strip buttnaked.
More bonus points for ability to quickly and cleanly discard and reacquire pretty much everything you have.
</sperg>

Neo-Scavanger have system like that. Plus you can craft cart on wheels - have some backapacks and if you are naked you can carry things only in hands. Nice system actually and not very punishing.

As example - you can have water in bottles but you can store wires there or some small rocks.
 

deuxhero

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Limited inventory is best when the economy isn't dependent on looting stuff, or the looting/selling is automated. Jagged Alliance 2's system of controlling resouces for example (you can sell shit to the gun dealer, but the return on time spent renders it largely pointless).Silent Storm is also a good one: everything your side makes is free, logistics isn't your problem in the slightest, because you're a professional outfit but you're not the best supplied and Thor's Hammer has lots of high end goodies. Mount and Blade has loot very important early game for funds, but loses a lot of relevence once you start getting taxes and you'll only be looting a few things you can use instead of taking every ragged ragged outfit [sic] to the vendor for a few dennars (the loot system has a major problem though in that the commander, for some reason, gets last share of the loot. It should be that you get first pick and taking too big a share hurts morale if you don't compensate with a wage bonus, but leaving extra stuff gives a morale bonus).

Weight limits are better than grid, but weight limit + grid could allow mass/volume tradeoffs and nifty compartmentalized inventory.

<sperg>
Imagine a game where character has no inventory of their own, just equip slots, but equipped items can also work as containers, each with their own inventory space OR hotkeyable slots. For example a belt could have a number of small inventory spaces representing pouches as well as quickly accessible weapon slots.
Bonus points for not being able to carry everything after you strip buttnaked.
More bonus points for ability to quickly and cleanly discard and reacquire pretty much everything you have.
</sperg>

As for the inventory tetris - DX:HR has long since solved that and good fucking riddance.

Isn't that literally what JA2 1.13 and 7.62 do?
 
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*-*/\--/\~

Cipher
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Jul 10, 2014
Messages
909
I've never understood the hoarding psychos who could just leave a brick on the "loot all" button. Is it too much decision making to just grab the valuable stuff and leave the trash? If you complain about multiple trips to town... well don't fuckin' do them. Look at your average loot pile, 90% of its value is in that magic item and a pile of jewelry you can easily carry anyway.

Reasonable weight / space limits are a good thing, as well as vendors who refuse to buy trash.
 

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