Wizardry I'm playing Wizardry VII (unfortunately I will miss the ring)

[hal900x]

My dirty little secret: I've lurked here for years and never played a Wizardry game. I started with VII, don't ask. I have at my disposal the Gold version of the manual (playing DOS tho), the original hintbook, reference cards, gamefaqs and several ancient websites still up with various bits of info about the game. All this, and I still have many questions. In a game like this I get the most satisfaction from a deep understanding of the mechanics.

First question: my Bard chose Detect Secret but has no spell points in it's discipline. I thought the game was supposed to award spell points for the chosen spell's discipline...is it a random number that includes zero as a possible value, or is this a bug of some sort. Did I choose the wrong discipline (mind?) for a mage-type caster? I have no other mage caster in the party at present.

PS: the Codex has changed. It seems weirdly civil to me, there are newfags everywhere who are given the benefit of the doubt. It seems like perhaps the Incline has attracted some new converts. Market trends affecting the Codex, tsk.

 

[Jaesun]

Start with VI, otherwise you won't have the ring!

 

[Dorateen]

Bards aren't for casting, they're for playing instruments.

 

[treborSux]

Start with VI, otherwise you won't have the ring!

VI IMO is a better game too, also will help you appreciate the ambition and imagination of VII more.

 

[GlutenBurger]

I was in the mood to start a new game of Wizardry VII a few weeks ago. After an hour in the character creator, I only got two rolls higher than 11. I didn't remember it being quite that arduous.

Yeah, you shouldn't be depending on a bard for your mage spells. His spellcasting will only ever be as a backup for your main casters. You can muddle through without the mage book if you've got a strong caster doing psychic or alchemy, however. What's your overall party composition?

 

[treborSux]

I was in the mood to start a new game of Wizardry VII a few weeks ago. After an hour in the character creator, I only got two rolls higher than 11. I didn't remember it being quite that arduous.

Better to cheat the dice http://mad-god.webs.com/CF Related/CosmicForge_UNICODE.rar

 

[GlutenBurger]

Editors make me feel cheap and dirty, but I guess it's better than running out of steam before you even get going. I'll keep it on hand in case the whim arises on a future Saturday afternoon.

 

[treborSux]

My only brotip for Wizardry 6 and 7 that you should read and understand is "miss chance". Everything else you can learn on your own.

Copied from gamefags:

Miss chance is an influential statistic, but it is neither documented nor ever
shown in the game. You will need to use Mad God's utility to see this. It is
the largest contributor to accuracy in physical combat, and is actually
somewhat more important than weapons skill. It does not affect number of
attacks or damage; those are primarily mediated by character level, Dexterity
and Speed (number of attacks), and Strength (damage).

Miss chance works like THAC0 from AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, except that the
important die roll uses a 100-sided die, not a 20-sided die. Miss chance for
every class starts at 100 for every character, regardless of race or class. It
is modified by weapon skill, the to-hit modifier of the weapon used, the
specific attack mode you employ, and the effects of status conditions like
Irritated. +1 to hit appears to be the equivalent of -5 to miss chance. Like
THAC0, the lower your miss chance is, the more likely you are to hit a monster
in combat.

Miss chance can go down if a character gains a level, but only if the following
three criteria are met: (a) The level attained is not higher than 20; once a
character reaches 21st level, that character is forever barred further miss
chance reductions. (b) The level attained is not lower than the highest level
the character has ever achieved. (c) Base miss chance may not drop below 0.

Example: You create a brand new. At level 1 she starts with a miss chance of
100 like everyone else. You advance her to level 8; at each level-up, she gets
a reduction in miss chance (1d4+1 from being a Valkyrie). You then switch her
class to Psionic. While her level drops to 1, her miss chance remains
100-7d4-7. You then advance her to level 11. Her miss chance does not change
until level 8, when she gets a second level 8 miss chance reduction (1d3 for
being a Psionic). The level-ups from 9 to 11 also each reduce her miss chance
by 1d3, making her miss chance at the end of all this equal to 100-7d4-4d3-7.

If you are minmaxing your characters by changing class multiple times, this
ability to double-dip miss chance reductions at maximum achieved level is
something to keep in mind: if you are doing many class changes you should try
to do so at exactly the highest level that character has achieved. This target
can go upward as you reach new areas that give more experience. The game
however sometimes messes up keeping track of what your highest level achieved
is, which makes getting miss chance reductions easier (the bug described in
section 1D(6)).

Miss chance reduction by class is given in section 4, but to summarize here:

Class | Miss chance reduction at level-up
----------------------------------------+----------------------------------
Mage, Alchemist, Psionic, Bishop | 1d3 (1 to 3)
Priest, Thief, Bard | 1d4 (1 to 4)
Fighter, Ranger, Valkyrie, Lord, Monk | 1d4+1 (2 to 5)
Samurai, Ninja | 1d4+2 (3 to 6)

 

[Jason Liang]

Your first decision is whether you want to abuse class changing (the smart way but time consuming way) or to play the game on impossible mode (the fast but suicidal way). Also you must decide if you want a party that can complete the game or one strong enough to kill (some of) the Gorrors.

There are two different classic faqs explaining the game mechanics and party creation. You will gain spell points whenever you learn a new spell, and also on level up. There is also a special spell point regen bonus for spellcasters based on INITIAL piety, so when you create a spellcasting character, it's vital that character has 17 piety (if I remember correctly). Raising piety after the game begins doesn't give you this bonus, you can only get it at character creation.

Please let me know if you need more explanation on the mechanics and benefits of classchanging.

 

[Melan]

I knew about none of this arcane thingamajig, and played W7 just fine (with some trial and error, which the class changing mechanic accommodates well). Just play, and you will be okay.

 

[Jason Liang]

http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/showpost.php?p=420843&postcount=236

The relevant info for mana regeneration:

- the mana regeneration rate is set at creation, gaining levels, improving stats or switching class afterwards won't change it
- you get +1 to all 6 mana regeneration rates if pie+pie+vit = 42-50 and +2 if pie+pie+vit > 50 at creation

Its recommended that, even if you don't plan to abuse class changing, if you want to use a non-Mage character that can use spells (Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, Wizard, Lord, Samurai, Valk, Ranger, Ninja, etc) that you start them as Mage and change them to the right class at level 2, to maximize the permanent mana regeneration rate. Faeries also receive better mana regen than other races, so they are the best choice for a backrow caster that doesn't care about AC (like a Bishop or Bard). The only exception is Bard, if you want to get the Lute that casts Sleep- this can only be gotten by creating a non-Faerie Bard character. Do NOT create a Faerie Bard, as Faerie equipment will replace the normal Bard equipment and you wont get the lute.

The last time I played W7 I started with a party of 6 Mages (a mix of Elves and Faeries) to maximize mana regen.

 

[hal900x]

Thanks for all the good data. Still haven't got an answer to my original question tho. The to-hit bit is good stuff. To be clear, I am not looking to power game (well, some), but I do very much enjoy understanding the meta-game deeply. In a technical game such as this, I feel more immersed if I can, for example, visualize the difference in dice rolls between "swing" and "thrust". I am keeping my current party, win or lose, till the end. I will definitely be switching some of my party's classes though, because...more mechanics! Since I sense much love for the party building aspect of this game, I'll delineate my party: Lizard Fighter/Felpurr Monk/Faerie Alchemist/Rawulf Priest/Dracon Bard/Human Thief. Average level is 7, cleared out most of the mobs in New City. So yes, I have a pure Alchemist that suffices, but my plan was to have the Bard handle all the non-combat utility like Detect Secret, Identify, etc. It made sense when I rolled him, but the severe dearth of spell points hasn't worked out as well as I envisioned, and to make matters worse Dracon has low piety so it takes forever to regen those points...lots of resting (speaking of which, is time essential in this game? The manual is telling me it is.) That's back to my OP: is zero (0) a possible result when getting assigned new spell points? I haven't had any real trouble in combat. Not sure who when and what will switch classes, but I might switch the Bard to Mage later. I know that's backwards but maybe it will afford me more spell points and/or a better chance of increasing Piety. IIRC it's random tho, right?

 

[octavius]

In my experience you always get more spell points when choosing a new spell, if you already have more than 0 spell points in a spell category. So it's a good idea to initially choose spells from categories in which you yet have no spells (and thus no spell points), just to get started and make those numbers increase faster.
EDIT: to clarify, once you have a positive number in a spell school that number will increase with each level up. It will increase more if you chose a spell in that school, though. (IIRC).

Time matters. Take too long and someone else will snatch those maps.

 

[hal900x]

In my experience you always get more spell points when choosing a new spell, if you already have more than 0 spell points in a spell category. So it's a good idea to initially choose spells from categories in which you yet have no spells (and thus no spell points), just to get started and make those numbers increase faster.

Time matters. Take too long and someone else will snatch those maps.

Good to know, because that Bard is consuming a lot of rest cycles. I have yet to acquire any maps, but there was a reference about missing out on a certain "blueprint". Also, each NPC I inquire about them suggests I hand them mine. I have tried answering "Yes", which produces a generic response and no apparent results. I have also tried giving them my map kit, and the hustlers just keep it.

 

[hal900x]

So it sounds like I have found a teensy bug, and it might not be a sin to edit in the minimum number of spell points for those spells that awarded no points. Too bad both editors were written for 3.11.

 

[hal900x]

What do the bag/sack symbols next to items in the use/give dialog mean?

 

[eric__s]

Yes, if you don't have enough spell points to cast a spell you've selected, that's a bug. I've never run into it before, but I've also never played the gold version. Apparently the gold version has some pretty bad bugs, especially regarding diplomacy, so if you can, I'd switch to the original.

 

[hal900x]

Yes, if you don't have enough spell points to cast a spell you've selected, that's a bug. I've never run into it before, but I've also never played the gold version. Apparently the gold version has some pretty bad bugs, especially regarding diplomacy, so if you can, I'd switch to the original.

I am playing the DOS version, as I mentioned. I avoided Gold because of the reasons you listed.

 

[Jason Liang]

It's much more efficient to use fountains to recover life/ mana/ stamina; either the fountain in the beginner dungeon or the fountain in New City. If you use rest instead, the maps will be long gone.

If you are only going to change class once per character, it doesn't matter when as long as its before level 20. If you are going to change class multiple times, its best to do it as soon as possible to make it easier to lower your hit chance. Don't class change everyone at once... Iirc once your bard has maxed the Music skill, it's safe to switch him.

If you are not going to abuse class changing you will have very limited skill points so spread your utility skills aound (like mapmaking). Also, one of the gorrors is impossible unless everyone in your party has stealth, so keep that in mind as you plan your class change strategy.

On your class composition, you definitely need to change your Lizard fighter into something else since many enemies get a significant damage bonus against fighters. Dracon bard is also problematic as both dracon breath weapon and using instruments consume stamina.

Again, mana regen is SET at character creation.

 

[hal900x]

It's much more efficient to use fountains to recover life/ mana/ stamina; either the fountain in the beginner dungeon or the fountain in New City. If you use rest instead, the maps will be long gone.

If you are only going to change class once per character, it doesn't matter when as long as its before level 20. If you are going to change class multiple times, its best to do it as soon as possible to make it easier to lower your hit chance. Don't class change everyone at once... Iirc once your bard has maxed the Music skill, it's safe to switch him.

If you are not going to abuse class changing you will have very limited skill points so spread your utility skills aound (like mapmaking). Also, one of the gorrors is impossible unless everyone in your party has stealth, so keep that in mind as you plan your class change strategy.

On your class composition, you definitely need to change your Lizard fighter into something else since many enemies get a significant damage bonus against fighters. Dracon bard is also problematic as both dracon breath weapon and using instruments consume stamina.

Again, mana regen is SET at character creation.

Set by what, exactly? Is it strictly based on PIE or are there other factors, such as race? I'm not worried about the stamina drain on the Dracon, Stam management is not an issue in this party. I rarely use the breath, only when there are enemies immune to sleep or I need some emergency AOE damage. Too many other options. I purposely went against common wisdom rolling a Dracon Bard, but I did not account for the long regen times.

So the only real time constraints are for the maps? I have no idea what maps do in this context, but is it worth rerolling for? I would rather tough it out and adapt.

From reading up I knew an all-stealth party was ideal, but it kinda takes the fun out of organic character building for me. I don't know what a Gorror is and I don't want to know. If you read all my posts here, what I love is to deeply understand the mechanics, and things like understanding how maps work fall into that category. There is a potential for some small spoilers in order to understand what "missing the maps" means, but not nearly on the level of "there are 4 Gorrors and you must get them all and you need a full stealth party to do it". That kind of shit I would rather not know, or I'll devolve into a dull metagaming session. I want to satisfy the left brain without making the right hemisphere miss out on anything cool. Another good example would be the keys I'm finding: I have 3 iron keys, can they be for different locks or are they each potentially unique, forcing me to lug around all 3 in inventory? That is the kind of thing I would like to know, without any references to what they actually open.

 

[octavius]

Mana regen is based on character class (base spell casters are best), stats (don't recall the details) and Fairies get a +1 bonus.

Maps: you need them to advance the plot. But there is more than one way to get them, and they don't disappear from the game.

Keys: IIRC all Iron Keys are the same. It was definitely like this in Wiz 6. But they should stack.

 

[Jason Liang]

The Gorrors are special endgame challenges, you don't need to beat them to finish the game. The maps are the basic plot items (like triforce pieces, not like maps in Zelda). If you've fully explored New City you should have found out about them and discovered one already. You get one for completing each area in the first half of the game, but if you are too late they will be gone already.

Spell regen is based on character class, race and stats ON CREATION, which is why its best to start all of your spellcasting characters as mages. As the above quote states, the +2 bonus is for 2*piety + vitality >= 50 at Creation. As Octavius said, Faeries get +1 to spell regen and iirc Lizardmen get -1 or -2 to spell regen.

You can always complete the game, but the combat gets very difficult once you get out of New City.

 

[Melan]

To add: if you miss the maps, you can still get them from the NPCs who stole them from under your nose. Don't sweat it, there are a few which are almost impossible to find in their original resting places.

 

[octavius]

Also, one of the gorrors is impossible unless everyone in your party has stealth, so keep that in mind as you plan your class change strategy.

Which Gorror is that? I beat them all even if one of my guys (Samurai) didn't have stealth. What saved the day for me against the toughest one was when I learnt that Resurrection could actually be cast in combat.

 

[Zetor]

Beast of 1k eyes maybe? Though there's a video of an unarmed solo ninja on expert killing the 2 beasts in a few turns without using stealth (or any other tricks). he was level 120, mind

I killed him with just 3 stealthers, but the rest of my party was either dead or incapacitated pretty much the entire fight.