I'm looking forward to Oblivion.

[DarkUnderlord]

I am too looking forward to this "Oblivion".

I too am looking forward to Oblivion

Hey! You guys go get your own threads. This one's for how much Exitium's excited by it.

I would say I'm looking forward to it too, just to see how much it will or won't suck. Unfortunately, I don't have the desire in me right now to create a thread about it. Well, that and I'm not an attention seeking whore.

Well, at least not that much, anyway.

 

[Killzig]

Rex, you should make a fansite for Oblivion and seal its fate of eternal sucktitude.

I'm looking forward to 40 hours of asscam gameplay.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I'd say that Radiant AI and Havok physics have given the opportunity for emergent gameplay, but I wouldn't claim that RAI is an example of emergent AI. The NPCs don't learn. They don't try different things automatically to accomplish a goal, and their behaviors don't automatically evolve. They may change, and they may surprise, but they're certainly deterministic.

 

[franc kaos]

Does anyone know a site that teachs this l33t speak? as I can't understand most of it (ie !!!111, RoXor etc).

Just grab a heavy blunt object and smash your head in with it repeatedly. Eventually all language will cease to have any meaning and l33t will make perfect sense.

Like an axe, for example.

7h4n|{$ ƒ0r 7h3 1nƒ0 m4n, 1 ƒ33£ 900Ð, (4n'7 w417 70 p£4¥ 0b£1v10n
Thanks for the info man, I feel good, can't wait to play Oblivion <dribbles>
Oblivion will be the greatest - with that soil erosion I'm gonna dig a giant hole in the forest and (shit, no deformable terrain); well then, I'll take my bow and zoom in to take someones eye out and... damn no location based damage. Fuck sake, is this a FPS or a RPG? Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[oherror]

ah at last MrSmileyFaceDude comes to make everything clear for some people. But this is rpgcodex and they never take anything for face value....

VD where are you i know you have something to add...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nope, nothing to add. MSFD has stated the same thing as I've said before. Radiant AI is not an emergent AI, it's basically a scheduler of NPCs activities. Cute, but pointless.

 

[Balor]

Oh, well, not really. I mean, not entirely pointless.
Not until you have tried to implement schedules in MW using CS.
I've tried... I was even somewhat successful.
But it require quite a bit of remaking the game anyway, not to mention bug-prone and messes with game settings.
And the alternative? A set of custom, highly complex scripts on every NPC.
And by complex I mean not in a 'require a lot of brain-racking to do right', but 'require a lot of numbers to be processed'.
So, no wonder we never had working NPC schedules in MW, despite all the bashing. Only VERY simple emulations, like disabling certain ‘filler’ NPCs for the night, or scripts that lock outer doors.
So, RAI is a step in right direction, and I thank developers for that.
Anything to breathe more life into game is good.
Of course, it will be nowhere near level of Star Rangers(2), I'm quite sure of it, but what the hell?
No everyone is bound to be a genius, IQ distribution chart clearly shown that, and Elemental gamers seem to have used up the quota for the next a few years .
Well, I agree that 2d space and 3d Tamriel are 'a bit' different things. But STALKER promises something more then that... of it ever comes out, that is, heh.
(However, it's better then releasing game in early beta stages like it has become 'good form' now. But that will make its fall even harder if they’ll fail to deliver what they promised.).
Oh well, we'll wait and see.
But, the fact NPCs will not be glued to a place is certainly a good thing.
And addition of compass to the game kinda shows that it indeed works, heh.
Like, some guy spend two hours searching for Cossades equivalent in Oblivion, and omigosh! - he’s missing, went out to have a snack in a local bar.
The confusion, the agony! Off with that game, gotta play some Mario instead.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Cute, but pointless.

I wouldn't go THAT far. One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind was lifeless NPCs, and Radiant AI is part of the answer to that complaint. I really don't understand why people would complain about us responding to a complaint, but, whatever.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

I think by "lifeless" they meant not being intersting and basically just being walking signposts.

 

[Tintin]

I'm pretty sure I heard a few complaints about them never doing anything.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

I have too, but I think that the NPCs being boring and uninteresting (And them being an integral part of RPGs) is a much more valid complaint than whining how the NPCs are not going around and lighting their dogs on fire (I know it was just an example, but it was a pretty silly one).

 

[Athame]

I really don't understand why people would complain about us responding to a complaint, but, whatever.

*Ooo, Ooo! Raises hand*

I have a complaint! The skill and chargen system in Morrowind wasn't robust or complex enough, care to respond to that? Oh! You did WHAT?! You made it even simpler!?!?!?

 

[Chefe]

Cute, but pointless.

I wouldn't go THAT far. One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind was lifeless NPCs, and Radiant AI is part of the answer to that complaint. I really don't understand why people would complain about us responding to a complaint, but, whatever.

With all due respect, I personally believe it was more the fact their dialogue was all drawn from WikiTamriel, they hardly walked around (and when they did, there was mucho colisión), there were no special animations like blacksmiths hammering away/herbalists brewing/bar patrons sitting and drinking, there were no good idle animations, there were no animations to give the illusion of NPCs conversing with each other, no one had any hint of personality despite having a shitload of worthless crap to spew out to you... among other things. I think one of the main points was just that Morrowind's NPCs (if you can call them that) didn't even move. They just stood around in the same spot, forever. This, among other things (like blacksmith animations) was a major downgrade from Daggerfall... and even Arena, which both had bustling cities and hard-working blacksmiths!

When people said they'd like a little life added to the NPCs, I don't think they were talking about wanting NPCs to eat. Because, quite frankly, that's just pointless. Who cares? Again, no offense, but I just don't see what's so great about NPCs eating and getting into random fights with each other.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Cute, but pointless.

I wouldn't go THAT far. One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind was lifeless NPCs, and Radiant AI is part of the answer to that complaint. I really don't understand why people would complain about us responding to a complaint, but, whatever.

I believe we've already had this discussion. First, you never seemed to listen to those compaints that are against dumbing games down. Second, are you sure that you've got the right solution to the complaint? After all, lifeless could mean many things and lack of anything to do is only a small part of it. Lack of personality established through dialogues and actions (no, not "going to eat every day at 12"-type actions) was the main problem, imo.

I know, I know. You said "part of the answer". That implies that there is another, secret, but totally awesome part that will be revealed in time. Probably after the game is released, 'cause timing is everything.

 

[Tintin]

Cute, but pointless.

I wouldn't go THAT far. One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind was lifeless NPCs, and Radiant AI is part of the answer to that complaint. I really don't understand why people would complain about us responding to a complaint, but, whatever.

With all due respect, I personally believe it was more the fact their dialogue was all drawn from WikiTamriel, they hardly walked around (and when they did, there was mucho colisión), there were no special animations like blacksmiths hammering away/herbalists brewing/bar patrons sitting and drinking, there were no good idle animations, there were no animations to give the illusion of NPCs conversing with each other, no one had any hint of personality despite having a shitload of worthless crap to spew out to you... among other things. I think one of the main points was just that Morrowind's NPCs (if you can call them that) didn't even move. They just stood around in the same spot, forever. This, among other things (like blacksmith animations) was a major downgrade from Daggerfall... and even Arena, which both had bustling cities and hard-working blacksmiths!

Unless you're being sarcastic, you are aware that a lot of those are being addressed in Oblivion, right?

 

[Chefe]

I would hope they're being addressed in Oblivion. I'm saying I doubt what people wanted when they said "less lifeless NPCs" was that they wanted the NPCs to eat and all that jazz. With all we've heard about RAI we haven't really heard anything about how the developers will add more personality to the NPCs and variety to the quests. For all its hype, all RAI has been about is NPCs walking around, fighting, and eating.

 

[Data4]

I would hope they're being addressed in Oblivion. I'm saying I doubt what people wanted when they said "less lifeless NPCs" was that they wanted the NPCs to eat and all that jazz. With all we've heard about RAI we haven't really heard anything about how the developers will add more personality to the NPCs and variety to the quests. For all its hype, all RAI has been about is NPCs walking around, fighting, and eating.

At the risk of sounding like a drooling fanboy and losing what little cred I may have, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Given a choice between NPCs that stand around in one spot 24/7 making like a humanoid Wiki kiosk and those that walk around, eat, shop, etc., while making like humanoid Wiki kiosks, I'd choose the latter. At least it gives SOME semblance of life in the world.

-Jon

 

[Chefe]

At the risk of sounding like a drooling fanboy and losing what little cred I may have

It's all about street cred, man. Can't live a life of da gamer without cred, man. Representin' on da 'net, word up G.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Given a choice between NPCs that stand around in one spot 24/7 making like a humanoid Wiki kiosk and those that walk around, eat, shop, etc., while making like humanoid Wiki kiosks, I'd choose the latter. At least it gives SOME semblance of life in the world.

You misunderstood me, chico. I'm saying that having NPCs walk around and have some special animations (blacksmith banging on a hammer, bar patrons drinking) is what is really needed. NPCs eating, IMO, is a wasted effort and resources could have better been sent elsewhere. You're right, we just seen some resemblance of life in the world, and humaniod kiosks doesn't cut it, but NPCs eating is only going to be a "that's pretty cool!" moment, then it doesn't matter anymore. They'll just be walking around again, which is good, but all that effort that went into them eating and having random fights was for nothing. It doesn't take a genius programming team to make NPCs that walk around and occasionally set down, and maybe run an animation where they appear to be talking when they bump into other NPCs... it's been done before.

 

[Twinfalls]

Let's be more precise here. The dull dialogue is supposedly being improved. Everything's voiced, so we know there won't be as much of it. But there is still topic-based dialogue. The devs haven't really talked much about dialogue at all ('trust us it will be cool'), but it's fair to assume it will be better than MW.

Radiant AI is different thing altogether. We know why it's there. It makes scheduling easier and quicker to implement (fair enough, lots of NPCs). It adds a bit of randomness, too, but essentially, it's like the CS - just a shortcut tool.

So it's perhaps not fair to say 'The NPCs won't be more interesting because of Radiant AI', because that isn't what its there for. Unless the devs are saying 'Radiant AI is all that will improve the content of NPC dialogue'....

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I know when I refered to Morrowind as lifeless, I wasn't refering to the fact that NPCs move around in almost predictible paths or seemingly random shuffles around town. I doubt too many players will notice the difference between how the NPCs moved in Morrowind versus Oblivion unless they follow them around. After all, if you're running through town to sell some loot to the local shop you have a good relationship with, can you tell whether or not the NPC that just walked out of the alley is just randomly moving around town(Morrowind) or is headed to his house to grab lunch(Oblivion)? No, you can't. All you know is that he's moving.

By lifeless, I was refering to the shitastic way you guys handled dialogue, and it doesn't look like that's changed. If it's still IEChat, then it's still going to be lifeless.

Topic based will still be lifeless even if it's voiced. Why? Because you'll get the same damned emotion every single time. This is another huge reason why dialogue trees kick the shit out of the crap Bethesda does. With dialogue trees, the designers can tell when a player is going to piss off the NPCs he's talking with and give the NPC an appropriate emotional response. If the voice actor is good, he'll give that response with the emotion that reply carries and there will be some life to it.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

What you're missing is that the topic list can include responses to questions asked of the player, not just things the player can ask the NPC. Multiple responses, even. Ones that might alter the NPC's disposition towards the player, and affect what the NPC's reaction is to what the player "says." Our dialog system is MORE than capable of handling what you're asking for, for that reason and more.

There's also the Condition system, which (among other things) allows designers to establish the conditions whereby topics (and even responses) are available -- it can be based on a huge number of variables, from disposition towards the player, to faction membership and status, quest status, whether or not the player is wearing a particular item, the time of day in-game, and pretty much anything else we give the designers access to.

Oh, and dialogue isn't JUST voiced -- everything an NPC can say has an emotion tied to it, and as NPCs talk their facial expressions change according to that as well as according to their disposition towards the player.

I DID say that RAI was PART of what we've done to address NPC lifelessness.

 

[Sol Invictus]

What you just said should make a lot of people feel a LOT better about Oblivion. Most people here just assumed that Radiant AI was the ONLY thing you've done to address NPC lifelessness. I'm glad that you've taken care of the dialogue, too.

 

[Tintin]

You misunderstood me, chico. I'm saying that having NPCs walk around and have some special animations (blacksmith banging on a hammer, bar patrons drinking) is what is really needed. NPCs eating, IMO, is a wasted effort and resources could have better been sent elsewhere. You're right, we just seen some resemblance of life in the world, and humaniod kiosks doesn't cut it, but NPCs eating is only going to be a "that's pretty cool!" moment, then it doesn't matter anymore. They'll just be walking around again, which is good, but all that effort that went into them eating and having random fights was for nothing. It doesn't take a genius programming team to make NPCs that walk around and occasionally set down, and maybe run an animation where they appear to be talking when they bump into other NPCs... it's been done before.

You just said eating is a waste but drinking is needed......

Anyways Radiant AI is to make NPC's externally resemble real life. When you walk into a city, it will be more interesting and lifelike when there is a bustling town of commoners than three of four people walking outside 24 hours a day. It will be more immersive to walk in at midnight to find only one or two people crawling about with lanterns. It will also be immersive, I would assume, to be going down into a town to witness guards chasing after a thief, or walk into a bar and find people sitting around you, talking.

I doubt that they have completely ignored actual interaction with NPC's and MrSmileyFaceDude has pointed that out in the post above too. Yes, it will still be topic-based as they said, but there are still many ways to improve that.

 

[Chefe]

You just said eating is a waste but drinking is needed......

Listen closely... drinking would be done only by some AN-UH-MA-SHUNS. Meaning, all thise code wouldn't have to be written for NPCs to "get hungry" and what not, all they would have to do is place a guy setting in a bar with a mug in his hand that goes up and down a few times. That's just for the bar anyways, I couldn't give two shits whether an NPC needed a drink while walking around town.

Anyways Radiant AI is to make NPC's externally resemble real life.

Again, what does it matter if an NPC gets hungry or gets pissed at another NPC and trys to fight him/her randomly?

When you walk into a city, it will be more interesting and lifelike when there is a bustling town of commoners than three of four people walking outside 24 hours a day. It will be more immersive to walk in at midnight to find only one or two people crawling about with lanterns. It will also be immersive, I would assume, to be going down into a town to witness guards chasing after a thief, or walk into a bar and find people sitting around you, talking.

They have bustling towns? I saw the birdseye view of the town in the magazine, it was about as big as Caldera.

About the thief, how many times do you think something like that will happen? Once, maybe twice? So all that programming effort is wasted on a quick, 10 second little "ooh cool" that doesn't affect you nor the gameworld. What's the alternative? Having theives running through the streets being arrested all the time?

Having people setting around talking in a bar doesn't need to be done by radiant AI. It needs to be done by some good animations and background crowd noises.

 

[Chefe]

MWS: How interactive can you make the dialogue between Player and NPC? Why did you choose to use the hybrid system?

Todd: You can do two types of dialogue 1) Topics, which is what we mostly use. You ask about a specific thing, the NPC gives a specific response. The other way is that you can do tree stuff, with multiple choice questions (like Baldur’s Gate). So you can get a situation where you decide to ask an NPC about The Thieves Guild, and he’d say “I hear that they may be in the area. Have you heard anything?”, with response choices for you of “I have seen them beyond the North Cave.” Or “I was hoping you might know more.” It really gives us the most powerful and flexible system for every occasion. We wanted to treat information as items you had.

I've been spending some time play testing the Mage's Guild quests, and I'm just astounded by the details: the dialogue, the intricacy of the quests, the sheer volume of information.

3. NPCs. Kind of the same scenario as the world. They were very simple and repetitive in Daggerfall. Every NPC now is basically the same as the PC. They have all the same stats, inventory options, etc. Dialogue has also gotten a major overhaul.

Just something I found interesting... Morrowind could have been a whole lot more in the way of interesting NPCs, quests, and closer to Daggerfall. Seems that not everyone on the team liked Morrowind's direction...
http://til.gamingsource.net/interviews/douglasgoodall.shtml#PartI

Just read Part I.