Icewind Dale series compared to the Baldur's Gate series

[Roguey]

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Daemongar]

Guys...I never played IWD because I always thought it looked generic and lame. But it's only tree-fiddy on GOG so should I? I've never been a combatfag so I'm a bit hesitant.

Buy it, you cheap-ass. Come on: it's worth $4 just to sit around and create 6 characters for 2 hours!

Regardless that IWD boils down to a lot of fighting, it does have some awesome features that do NOT make it less of a game than either BG. In fact, comparing its strengths and weaknesses, it's hard for me to compare BG and IWD. IWD excels in mood, art direction, encounter design and has a more grim tone. BG1 excels in entertaining fantasy, has more NPC's that don't want to murder you, and more interesting locations and encounters.

I like both IWD and BG1, and hold them both in high regard. Saying which is better? Depends on my mood, but that doesn't mean one is bad because the other is awesome. I honestly believe BG1 is one of the best games ever created, but that doesn't make IWD bad. Far from it. The games were not competing for sales, they complimented each other. They should both be played, as there really hasn't been anything like them since, and I don't see their equal on the horizon...

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Buy it, you cheap-ass. Come on: it's worth $4 just to sit around and create 6 characters for 2 hours!

Can you elaborate on character creation?

IWD excels in mood, art direction, encounter design

Ok, you guys are starting to sell this thing.

 

[Infinitron]

TwinkieGorilla Identical character creation to BG1, you just get to do it six times.

 

[Surf Solar]

The party creation is one of the strong points of the game Twinkie, you can create the entire 6 man party for yourself. If you want some nice, balanced out party you'll spend a while in the character creation screen and it's fun. Plus, so many awesome portraits to choose. IWD2 offers even more varied systems, races and classes for char creation, it depends which AD&D system you like more.

The game is very atmospheric, has one of the best ambient soundeffects in games that I know off and the musical score is good. The maps look beautiful, one of the prettiest games to this day for me (but then again I like snowy landscapes etc). Just because the game is set in the Icewind Dales people expect to see only snowy stuff, but the enviroments are actually pretty varied, even more so in Icewind Dale II.

Just don't expect many Choices&Consequences (there are none AFAIK). There is still a nice amount of dialogue, but most of the time you will be fighting, looting and equipping your band of adventurers with new shiny things. It is also a linear game. If you can stomach all this, then you will have a very good time with the game.


Its fault back then was that it came out roughly the same time Diablo II did and the media (even the press textes?) compared it to Diablo - while the gameplay is nothing like that. People expected some simple hack'n'slash, but you have to actually use tactics (if you don't cheese) in the game because of how the combat encounters are placed.

I'd say, give it a try, it's really good and you can't do much wrong for 3,50$

 

[Daemongar]

Buy it, you cheap-ass. Come on: it's worth $4 just to sit around and create 6 characters for 2 hours!

Can you elaborate on character creation?

Sure, in BG1 & 2, you create your main char according to slightly modified 2nd Edition D&D rules. Every other character is picked up along the way, leading to some interesting NPC conversations, bad blood, and party mixes. Usually if you are good-aligned you'll end up with Jahera, Kahlid, Minsc, Vicona, and Imoen (but you can dump them as well, and go for other NPC's. It's up to you.

In IWD, you follow a very similar system, but create your full party. So if you want a full compliment of 2 fighter classes, a thief, priest, mage, and a secondary healer/mage, hey, it's all yours. There really isn't any NPC interaction that I remember, but it is nice that you can select who leads, so conversations with results based on charisma or alignment can be altered based on who is talking. Or you could create a party of just 5 characters and put up with a little more hassle, but split xps only 5 ways. Or you could dare to be awesome, and play the game solo (which should be a rite of passage somewhere.)

 

[Infinitron]

There are also class and race checks in conversations.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I prefer sidequest extravaganza in Athkatla over any linear dungeon crawler.
Secondly, later in the game, IWD2 has some horrible trash mobs and HP tanks. Snow trolls, hook horrors etc. Comparable to Dragon Age games - yes, it's that bad.

But damn, this game is gorgeous. Portraits especially, J. Sweet is my frigging guru. Kovacs and Manley are not bad either.

 

[Roguey]

IIRC IWD was always intended to compete with Diablo (hence all the mobs and randomized loot) but damn me I didn't save the source interview.

Ha! Found it!
http://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/chris-avellone-a-man-of-many-words/4/

After a few months, he slowly moved Avellone into a design role on the hack-and-slash-oriented Icewind Dale – unofficially, Interplay’s response to Blizzard’s frighteningly successful action-RPG, Diablo.
“Competing with Diablo was one of the goals handed to us from up high,” Avellone says. “I loved the adrenaline rush I got in Diablo, but I’d hesitate to call Icewind a full action-RPG. It still had dialogue trees, and it was pretty tactical. But I really enjoyed working on it. I wrote all the major NPCs, and also did a number of quests in the opening area. And I also designed a lot of the special inventory items. It was a lot of fun.”

I suddenly remembered laughing hysterically at Avellone getting an "adrenaline rush" from Diablo, bam.

 

[Surf Solar]

IIRC IWD was always intended to compete with Diablo (hence all the mobs and randomized loot) but damn me I didn't save the source interview.

I think it is still up on gamebanshee IIRC.

I prefer sidequest extravaganza in Athkatla over any linear dungeon crawler.
Secondly, later in the game, IWD2 has some horrible trash mobs and HP tanks. Snow trolls, hook horrors etc. Comparable to Dragon Age games - yes, it's that bad.

But damn, this game is gorgeous. Portraits especially, J. Sweet is my frigging guru. Kovacs and Manley are not bad either.

Eh, I am someone who doesn't care THAT much if some enemies may be "wrongly" placed to the respective enviroment, as long as the actual diversity between monsters is good and the encounters are well planned out (I still fondly remember many fights in IWD/IWDII that gave me quite the headache). I don't remember there being so many HP sponges, safe for the very last fight that was really hard and a bit ridicolous with those monsters.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Bah. Just got home and noticed each game is only $3.50 if you buy all 9 together. Fuckers.

EDIT: fuckitwhatever. Bought/downloading.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you like it, replay it with Heart of Fury. Preferably starting with a lvl 1 party. I had great times with that. Maximum level at about 2/3 of the game, too.

 

[Surf Solar]

I have never completed Trials of the Luremaster, I started it with a party that completed the maingame+Heart of Winter, for some reason those monsters there kicked my ass big time. oO
Is it worth to jump back into the game now that this thread made me want to play IWD again, or should I just roll up a new party and play through the maingame?

 

[Mikko Moilanen]

IIRC IWD was always intended to compete with Diablo (hence all the mobs and randomized loot) but damn me I didn't save the source interview.

I think it is still up on gamebanshee IIRC.

I prefer sidequest extravaganza in Athkatla over any linear dungeon crawler.
Secondly, later in the game, IWD2 has some horrible trash mobs and HP tanks. Snow trolls, hook horrors etc. Comparable to Dragon Age games - yes, it's that bad.

But damn, this game is gorgeous. Portraits especially, J. Sweet is my frigging guru. Kovacs and Manley are not bad either.

Eh, I am someone who doesn't care THAT much if some enemies may be "wrongly" placed to the respective enviroment, as long as the actual diversity between monsters is good and the encounters are well planned out (I still fondly remember many fights in IWD/IWDII that gave me quite the headache). I don't remember there being so many HP sponges, safe for the very last fight that was really hard and a bit ridicolous with those monsters.

Oooh, sounds good! I don't even know for how many years I have had IWD I & II and even now they are installed in my computer. However, haven't been able to play more than 5 minutes of them because from all what I have read (outside of codex) is that they are sucky and cheap grind feasts when compared to BGs.

I shall remember what you wrote and experience IWDs someday. As for now I am having far too much fun playing NES and SNES JRPGs, thanks to CRPG addict. He wrote in his blog that he wont play them, and instead of peeing on the console games like I have done before I thought that maybe I should give them a try or else one can't really have a big picture of RPGs. Haven't regret that decision. I already feel the greatness of serious CRPG classics. Sometimes too spoiled ones, like me and the rest of the codex, need to crawl on shit in order to better appreciate the gems around.

Maybe after torturing myself with the Wizardry series.......pain is good - spoon feeding is bad.

 

[Murk]

I had some things to say but sea did a very good job of it already. The only other thing I will add is that despite Baldur's Gate being far more about story and characters, it completely fails at atmosphere and setting. The IWD games did a much better job of defining the area, the lore, the relations, and what exactly is going on within that framework. In a sense, its internal validity was much higher than Baldur's Gate 1 or 2. The art and music are above and beyond, no doubt, and it should be noted that the voice acting was quite well done and fitting. The characters themselves were more interesting, and far more subtle, and there was a lot to learn simply by investigating on your own.

Basically, it was an actual game world with a lot to see and encounter if you actually tried looking for it. Parallels and connections between the games as well as references to a setting outside of it to really give you the idea that what you are experiencing is not the only thing occurring but it is definitely the most immediately important thing in that area.

And of course, combat. Encounters, areas, and... well even spells and items were better in IWD. I still love reading the item descriptions of some of the more prominent weapons (like say the Holy Avenger in IWD 2) far more so than anything in the BG games.

Writing quality... this too, definitely. This didn't make sense to me because of the order of the IE games I played -- BG, Torment, then IWD, but on subsequent replays of just BG and IWD I found that IWD blows BG's writing out the water. Its sense of humor was better too.

 

[sea]

The main char in BG was not "chosen one" but one of the hundreds of siblings of the lord of murder, as the end animation implies. That little detail in the end made the game more epic than anything before or later up to this day. You fought the shit out of everything, met your brother and beated him and his fanatical cult followers with your cult followers, and then saw that fuck, this was not even the beginning. The beginning was Lord of Murder know when and there are hundreds like you. Not chosen. Just a small part of evolution.

Semantics. For all intents and purposes it's the usual chosen one/divine birthright/etc. angle that is the ultimate fantasy protagonist cliche. Sure, you're not "chosen" in the sense that nobody specifically selected you to be a hero etc., but it's that same old idea that you have some special power inside of you that makes you better and more powerful than everyone else. Both games have their plots based around that device.

Regarding lenght of dungeons - GET THE HELL OUT OF MY LAWN. WoW "heroic" coffee shit instances are that way ------------->

What the fuck are you even talking about? I say I like Icewind Dale, which is one long 20-25 hour dungeon crawl, and suddenly I'm an ADHD 'tard who loves World of Warcraft instances? How does that even make sense?

Baldur's Gate does have a lot of overlong dungeons full of trash mobs. It's not really so much a function of length, though, but pacing and variety. There are a few good ones, but there are also plenty of dungeons that are fucking shit and exist solely to pad out the game. The entire endgame is basically that, complete with a literal giant maze to walk through. Areas like Nashkel Mine and Cloakwood are padded out quite a bit as well, and most of the overland areas have very little of interest except 1-2 enemy types to slaughter and a couple of mini-quests. Tales of the Sword Coast was much, much better, as was Baldur's Gate 2, which I already said.

This is why I like Icewind Dale more. It is a dungeon crawl and it is "epic" (you sure like that word, don't you), but it also has enough different enemies, variety in environments, etc. such that it never becomes monotonous.

If you infiltrate kobold caves you should expect to run on many traps those cowardly things plant around - especially if their now new cave was just a while ago a mine. If you infiltrate a kobold lair you should expect to face at worst hundreds of kobolds trying to beat you by sheer numbers. Anything less is jut lame arcade coffee faggot shit.

Okay? And if something is fun for 5 minutes, it's automatically fun for 50 minutes as well? I'm not a fan of having my time wasted by being made to do the same shit over and over again in a game because it's "more epic" (or rather: the designers could reuse the same art assets and copy-paste enemies and tack on another X hours of gameplay).

I hate you. You whine about Deep Roads in Dragon Age, which managed to make impression of epic dwarven culture, and as a result we get so very shit arcade coffee fag games designed for asshole ADHDs.

What the hell are you even on about? I thought the Deep Roads was a bit padded (it needed a few more interesting side quests and enemy encounters), but I like Dragon Age and the Deep Roads area a lot more than most other people on this forum.

Really. Do you faggot wow instance 1000 times more and never touch single player RPGs.

Full disclosure: I have played World of Warcraft at most 10 hours, over a period of many, many years. I thought the game was complete and utter crap.

 

[Murk]

Sigh, what is it that makes people perceive a disagreement and, instead of stating their thoughts in a manner that clarifies, make the most outlandish strawman fallacy possible?

 

[octavius]

despite Baldur's Gate being far more about story and characters, it completely fails at atmosphere and setting. The IWD games did a much better job of defining the area, the lore, the relations, and what exactly is going on within that framework. In a sense, its internal validity was much higher than Baldur's Gate 1 or 2. The art and music are above and beyond, no doubt, and it should be noted that the voice acting was quite well done and fitting. The characters themselves were more interesting, and far more subtle, and there was a lot to learn simply by investigating on your own.

IWD is smaller in scope and has far fewer NPCs, so not surprising that they are better written.

Another thing IWD does very well is the Druid class. In the BG games they were rather boring, but in IWD they have all kinds of fun spells and abilities.

 

[Jaesun]

Why are you wasting your time posting to an obvious shitposter/alt sea.

 

[Murk]

Also the use of other skills. in IWD 2 tracking is basically a necessary skill at one point and, if used, always gives you a very good warning of what is to come. I also liked that characters can use their unique class's fluff/abilities to do certain things like cleansing tainted alters, singing songs to those who want it, training people or praying for them, etc.

You're definitely right about the druid tho -- in the BG games its pointless to bother with them as Jaheira is an annoying and weak dullard, Faldorn is... uhh.. I can't even remember, and in BG 2 Cernd, who can potentially be useful (in no small part for his Wisdom of 18 and that his fighting stats are replaced by his werewolf state) will leave if you actually play his story out. (or am I mistaken and it is only Keldorn that leaves?)

The spell selection and items in IWD on the other hand compliment quite nicely, and they also fit in very smoothly in the more barbaric and primitive setting.

 

[MMXI]

Baldur's Gate does have a lot of overlong dungeons full of trash mobs. It's not really so much a function of length, though, but pacing and variety. There are a few good ones, but there are also plenty of dungeons that are fucking shit and exist solely to pad out the game. The entire endgame is basically that, complete with a literal giant maze to walk through. Areas like Nashkel Mine and Cloakwood are padded out quite a bit as well, and most of the overland areas have very little of interest except 1-2 enemy types to slaughter and a couple of mini-quests. Tales of the Sword Coast was much, much better, as was Baldur's Gate 2, which I already said.

Why do you pretend that Baldur's Gate 1 has lots of long dungeons? It doesn't. It really doesn't. In fact, I can't think of an earlier RPG that has less dungeon crawling in than Baldur's Gate 1.

The Nashkel mines only have one and a half levels with enemies on, plus a boss level. The first level is enemy free and the second level is half enemy free. The Cloakwood mines is actually a decent dungeon, and one of only two substantial ones in the whole game. It has three levels and a boss level, with the first level containing largely avoidable combat. What else is there? The catacombs underneath Candlekeep, which is also one of the better parts of the game. There's three levels to that. Then there are tiny 10 to 15 minute "dungeons" like the Firewine ruins (which sucks), Ulcaster (which is good) and the lame thief maze at the end of the game. I'd count the sewer, but you can enter right on top of points of interest from the city so it's almost like a series of buildings.

Fair enough, criticise the amount of bland overland areas. I don't like the way they cut them out in Baldur's Gate II, but I can understand how others appreciate their removal. But criticising Baldur's Gate for having over long dungeons is absurd when most of them are tiny and the bigger ones are few in number.

Okay? And if something is fun for 5 minutes, it's automatically fun for 50 minutes as well? I'm not a fan of having my time wasted by being made to do the same shit over and over again in a game because it's "more epic" (or rather: the designers could reuse the same art assets and copy-paste enemies and tack on another X hours of gameplay).

It's funny because you've just described the Icewind Dales.

 

[attackfighter]

Keldorn will stay if you ask him to.

Same with Cernd (in fact I don't think you even have to ask).

 

[Murk]

Forcing him to stay is kind of a morale thing, no? I'm sure there's no consequence to it but I was usually not too unhappy to get rid of 'em. As for Cernd I always thought he had to go take care of the grove or something. Still, I never really used them -- I preferred to make my own characters via the multiplayer trick and just recruit in game NPCs for their quests, then to abandon them like the pieces of meat that they are.

BG 1's dungeons may not be very long but most are completely pointless, or are made tedious for the sake of tediousness. Even the whole cloakwood thing is dull with only the end being worth while because of the strong party you encounter before entering the mine and the actual boss fight.

 

[Surf Solar]

despite Baldur's Gate being far more about story and characters, it completely fails at atmosphere and setting. The IWD games did a much better job of defining the area, the lore, the relations, and what exactly is going on within that framework. In a sense, its internal validity was much higher than Baldur's Gate 1 or 2. The art and music are above and beyond, no doubt, and it should be noted that the voice acting was quite well done and fitting. The characters themselves were more interesting, and far more subtle, and there was a lot to learn simply by investigating on your own.

IWD is smaller in scope and has far fewer NPCs, so not surprising that they are better written.

Another thing IWD does very well is the Druid class. In the BG games they were rather boring, but in IWD they have all kinds of fun spells and abilities.

Anyone remember the songs you get as a bard in IWD I ? That "healing over time" one - I abused this shit to hell. I still remember fondly even where I first got it, it was in that museum/aquarium the lizards occupied. I beat the crap out of these enemies without having to resort to rest spamming. I felt so pro back then. :D

 

[Ringhausen]

Keldorn promises to stay with you till you save Imoen or defeat Irenicus, but he'll forget all about it. The guy's a lousy husband. And it really makes no sense for him to come save you from hell considering his stance on Bhaal essence.