Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Mod News Icewind Dale in ToEE Engine: the first chapter demo beta or something

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Elwro, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. I'm With Her Severian Silk for prison Arcane

    Severian Silk
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    Click here and disable ads!
    You need to read this or leave the Codex forever.
     
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  2. Electryon Learned

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    I'm hardly implying that it is LITERALLY turn-based. What I am saying is that you have infinite time to plan out your next move, and, indeed, the game is designed in such a way that you are expected to pause and evaluate the battle after each real-time turn (and turns DO exist in the game, though I would never argue it is traditionally "turn-based" because it obviously isn't). The Infinity Engine games are only really a clusterfuck if you set all your characters to a certain auto AI and let the game play without pausing for 10-15 seconds at a time. If you constantly pause the game the control you have over the situation is anything but a clusterfuck. It simply depends on how much you pause the game and how many party members you are willing to micro-manage. If it's all 6, the situation you describe rarely happens.
     
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  3. Make America Great Again DarkUnderlord Bringing that old Raptor magic.

    DarkUnderlord
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    Holy shit Elwro is still alive.
     
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  4. Elwro Arcane Patron

    Elwro
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    It's good to see you too, DU :)
     
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  5. Andnjord Arbiter

    Andnjord
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    Jesus tip tap dancing christ! Allyx , may your name ring out in the hallowed halls of the codex forever if you ever finish this :bro:
     
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  6. Make America Great Again Black Arcane

    Black
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    Funny thing, I see this "argument" come up quite a lot on chans, steam forums and youtube comments.
     
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  7. Andnjord Arbiter

    Andnjord
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    You would think that modern chessmasters, aware of the innovations in modern game design would have realized the advantage that comes with playing as many pieces as quickly as possible simultaneously with both hands until one of them presses a space bar.
     
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  8. I'm With Her Severian Silk for prison Arcane

    Severian Silk
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    Black Isle should have disabled the spacebar just to troll players.
     
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  9. Allyx Learned

    Allyx
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    Thanks for the kind comments guys, my team and I greatly appreciate it.

    Re: the whole Real Time with Pause thing, I totally understand why Black Isle made the IE games that way, the vast majority of video games are played in real time (excluding card games, Mah Jong, Words with Friends, Chess etc...) so it may seem on the surface that they should also tap into this market, but I disagree that it is the best option for D&D games that claim to adhere to D&D rules.

    Pen and Paper D&D is turn based, RTwP isn't exactly turn based as the commands may be inputted in turn order, but the actions themselves are delayed. EG You can cast a fireball at a group of goblins on your turn, just to see them all rush you and leave the fireball's AoE before the flames appear, thus wasting your spell and causing much frustration. This wouldn't happen in Pen and Paper D&D, and it doesn't happen in ToEE's turn based engine.

    There are many other combat options available in ToEE's engine that just aren't possible in IWD, Readying an action vs. spells/approach, Counter spells, 5 foot steps were't a part of 2nd ed rules, but arguably the most useful non-offensive action in ToEE's engine as it allows you to step out of melee range to quaff a potion, or step towards a second enemy to continue a full attack after you just dropped the first enemy. These actions aren't available in IWD.

    I remember Baldur's Gate when it was first released, I was only 16 or so and my Uncle (who introduced me to D&D) had a copy, and it looked great. When I tried it for myself many years later I found the RTwP turn system frustrating. Even casting a simple Cure Light Wounds spell caused irritation as the recipient of the spell would not receive the benefit of the spell if they were to move between the start of the casting, and the completion of the casting, and when the characters can seemingly move themselves when their original target explodes into chunks of flesh and wander straight into the axe of the next Orc in line, I'm not best pleased. I believe there are a significant number of others out there who share this view.
     
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  10. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    Allyx, thanks for your work, ToEE had great combat systems and Icewind Dale 1 is the ideal game to do this, if you manage to finish your work, we, on an unexpected turn of events, might have massive incline out of nowhere when major releases were big disappointments on the last few years.
     
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  11. CRD Educated Patron

    CRD
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    Yeah, that snow is a bit piss poor.

    badumtss.
     
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  12. Nazrim Eldrak Educated

    Nazrim Eldrak
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    Awesome news!
    :imperialscum:

    I hope there will be a gameplay video regarding the Beta Demo.
     
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  13. sstacks Prophet

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    From Shane, with love.
     
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  14. sstacks Prophet

    sstacks
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    :selfhate:
     
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  15. I'm With Her Severian Silk for prison Arcane

    Severian Silk
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    Or worse, you target the fireball at the enemies. But then one of your party runs up to them and gets toasted as well. Or they move into the middle of your party and everyone gets toasted.
     
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  16. Crichton Augur

    Crichton
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    Without entering into an argument about whether a ToEE-like turn-based system is better or worse for IWD, I feel obligated to point out that this is not true; the RTwP IE system is a much better representation of 2nd edition AD&D than ToEE is, even as ToEE is a nearly perfect representation of 3rd edition D&D. Pre-3rd edition D&D isn't exactly a tun-based system; it's more like phase-based. To understand why, take a look at Chapter 9 "Combat" in the 2nd Edition PHB https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ok.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEmRXebshoFd0rU19oI8hLr07tAZA (page 185).

    The simplest way to think about it is this:

    1st/2nd Edition (A)D&D combat round --- 1. Everyone chooses an action 2. Everyone rolls initiative 3. Each character resolves their action in order (if possible)

    3rd Edition D&D turn --- 1. Everyone rolls initiative 2. Each character chooses an action and immediately resolves it.

    The key feature is that 2nd edition actions are chosen without knowing what exactly the circumstances will be when they are resolved. Fun examples:

    - A wizard choses to cast a spell, but a kobold shoots him before his action comes up and the spell and round are wasted.
    - Two characters with bows choose to shoot an enemy spellcaster but the first kills him, wasting the round of the 2nd.
    - A wounded character chooses to drink a potion, but his comrades kill or incapacitate all the dangerous opponents, making him feel that he's wasted a consumable by the time he actually drinks it.

    The RTwP system used by IWD requires one to weigh many of these same factors, particularly when casting spells with long casting times. It's not a perfect representation by any means, but the decision making process of a turn-based game is completely different. So why is it that the IE games get so much codex-hate for being faithless and not the gold box games? It's pretty simple really; (1) no one plays pen and paper D&D, particularly not on the codex where the average poster is a 14-year-old Estonian boy so when a codexer hears D&D, he thinks PoR rather than PHB and (2) 99.9% of the population prefers a turn-based game; the uncertainty about spell effects built into early D&D was a feature but most people playing spell-casters considered it a bug.
     
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  17. I'm With Her Mustawd for prison Arcane

    Mustawd
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    How is this not turn based? There are crpgs that do have this type of combat resolution and *gasp* they are turn-based.

    RTwP makes combat feel completely like a clusterfuck. You might as well pause Skyrim every five seconds and say that's how AD&D played.
     
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  18. sstacks Prophet

    sstacks
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    Every edition of tabletop D&D has been distinctly turn based.

    The above examples, while well written and well argued, just make the case that in earlier editions you had to decide what you would do on your turn before your turn occurred. So yes I can see the point that you could say you are casting fireball before knowing when you would go and then a fighter would run into the AOE, it's still very turn based while RTwP is just this huge chaotic simultaneous mess that can be interrupted with a space bar.

    I acknowledge that RtWP is more like real life, but D&D combat has never been argued to be as realistic as possible, just a good tactical system within a fantasy game.
     
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  19. Jaesun Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
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    MASSIVE fucking Inclline!! Allyx you are a true gentleman. :obviously:
     
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  20. Crichton Augur

    Crichton
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    Kid, you don't know what you don't know. The clusterfuck you describe is the intended result of what is termed, in table-top wargaming, a "simultaneous move" system (rather than an "alternate move" system, the Napoleonic wargame Column, Line and Square was a popular example once). The whole point of everyone deciding on their actions before any are resolved is that it simulates the uncertainty that occurs when things are truly occurring simultaneously (as they do in the IE games). The difficulty is exactly what you would expect, actions are decided on that end up making no sense by the time they're resolved. This can add useful complexity to the system, but it also creates artifacts. RTwP reproduces in cRPGs everything that players hated about the D&D initiative system; something that ToEE (for good or for ill) does not do.

    As an example, let's take a closer look at combat resolution for our favorite wizard and archer combo:

    IE games: 1) Archer decides to shoot wizard, 2) Wizard starts casting spell (1 and 2 can be reversed if you like), 3) Wizard struck by arrow (spell fizzles into nothing), 4) Wizard's round is wasted

    [exactly as described in the PHB]

    Gold Box games: 1) Archer's turn comes up, he shoots the wizard, 2) Wizard's turn comes up, he cannot cast a spell because he was damaged earlier this turn, decides to read a scroll instead.

    [This creates a mechanical situation not found at all in the pen and paper game, a character whose spell has been interrupted before it has been cast (!) and hence knows that he should take some other action. He is also free to do so, his round has not been wasted on a failed spell and he has not lost a memorized spell]


    I should note that I prefer the combat resolution of the gold box games (and Dark Sun: Shattered Lands for that matter), but that's a completely separate issue from which better represents 2nd edition AD&D. So feel free to bash the IE games for having chaotic, unwieldy or senseless combat, but don't claim that they are less representative of the pen and paper rules.

    helpful links for the uninitiated:
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ve.htm&usg=AFQjCNFx1XCAiw4bVKnbfqOLhGyL5xrpaw

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...iative&usg=AFQjCNEi04oZ29b3deZNsH9iNDqYCNOEoQ

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ition/&usg=AFQjCNEfpou8YhZE_z04rVs-klnzvciN8A
     
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  21. I'm With Her Mustawd for prison Arcane

    Mustawd
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    Kid? Ive played plenty of Wargames frmo WRG to Piquet to Flames of War to Warhammer. So please don't sit here and start presuming anything. Phase based systems can be executed just fine with a turn based mode. No reason to make combat suck by making it RTwP. If you want to be a RTwP apologist, then that's fine. No skin off my teeth. But there's no reason to say it's better than turn based in this instance.

    K, just forget it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
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  22. Allyx Learned

    Allyx
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    I will concede that you have made very good points RE: 2nd Ed phase based combat system Crichton, I had forgotten the need to declare the intended actions each round before the initiative and resolution of the rounds actions. It has been 20 years since I last played 2nd Ed D&D.

    I still maintain however that it is an unwieldy and frustrating system in a CRPG that is so heavily dependant on tactics.
     
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  23. I'm With Her Mustawd for prison Arcane

    Mustawd
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    I think this is the crux of the issue. It might be fine in terms of realistic mechanics, but it just is a downer to play. But I'm a TB fanboy, so what do I know?

    EDIT: We're runiing IWD in ToEE. Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle feathers. RTwP is fine, whatever. Let's get back to how incline this mod is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
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  24. sstacks Prophet

    sstacks
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    A turn based (or phase based if we are discussing earlier D&D editions as used above) combat system is not the same as a RtWP system, regardless of when actions are declared.

    Otherwise everything would happen SIMULTANEOUSLY in the early editions of D&D, which it doesn't. Sometimes it is close to simultaneous, bur rarely (if ever) 100% simultaneous. If I can waste you with my crossbow because I or my side have higher initiative (not because of a cooldown timer or weapon speed) and then on your turn you are dead and therefore can't do anything... it wasn't simultaneous.

    There is also a completely different thinking approach and flow to turn based vs RtWP. With turn based I can take my sweet time thinking it out (like chess) and it's natural to do so due to the nature of the turn based system. With RtWP it's a much different flow and tempo, regardless of the spacebar. It also has different tactics mainly involving timing due to the simultaneous nature of it.
     
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  25. holla_cabezas_de_mierda Cipher

    holla_cabezas_de_mierda
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    I actually like this about the IE games (interrupts etc), and 1st edition D&D is my favorite edition, followed by 2nd. I like #ed edition skills and addition tactical moves but I prefer to mix it with the ist edition rule set. I would like if ToEE implemented true phase based combat but since it is not based on 1st or 2nd edition I understand why it is not that way.
     
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