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I just played Quake 2

Lyric Suite

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Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life and failed.

I didn't want to contribute to this thread further since i said my piece, and i don't think Quake 2 is any sort of masterpiece to begin with, just not as bad as atmosphere fags and other assorted cretins make it out to be.

Still, this is just demented. Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life? How the fuck does that even begin to make sense?

Quake 2 its just Doom redux sans fancy art design. Not the most brilliant game ever made, but not that bad either.
 

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Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life and failed.

Still, this is just demented. Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life? How the fuck does that even begin to make sense?

It tried to have a scripted plot with events. It tried to have "missions" that made sense. It tried to have a greater depth for its universe, which was still not something that we were used to in FPS which were before Quake 2 just a random selection of levels you had to fight through.

However, it didn't do it right. The levels all looked the same (I remember a lot of yellow and blue, and a bit of red), the mission objectives were pointless and there was no narrative to speak of. Half-Life had an equally shallow which it told a lot lot better, and was much better at all these other things Quake 2 tried to do.
 

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... except Half-Life was also the beginning of decline of FPS from pure gameplay perspective. All that scripting introduced rigid linearity to its levels, wowing the easily impressionable, and making the rest of us scratch our heads.

The kind of scripting pioneered by Half-Life also started the era of "not having cooperative play in FPS", because, simply put, it's too rigid to work well in co-op. That's when FPS developers started either dropping coop entirely, or replacing it with a short series of retarded campaigns nobody ever touches.

The fact that Quake 2 didn't go "far enough" to be Half-Life, actually allowed its "primitive" scripting sequences to be isolated from the game enough to retain flexibility, and thus, cooperative play, and some illusion of navigating freedom resembling that of Doom.

Half-Life poisoned all that came after.

Quake 4 was a lot more like Half-Life than Quake 2 ever was. That's why it also didn't have coop.

Throughout all of Duke Forever's development, Broussard kept pointing out that they cannot have cooperative play in that game.

Duke3D had cooperative play, what gives?

Broussard's response - it's all that scripting that makes the experience "only work well for single player".

Half-Life started all of this. It may have been a C-grade movie, but it was truly a shit game, and its "immershun atmosphere" on-rails intro sequence gloomily foreshadowed the decline of FPS industry over the next decade.

jis2e.jpg
 

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Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life and failed.

Still, this is just demented. Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life? How the fuck does that even begin to make sense?

It tried to have a scripted plot with events. It tried to have "missions" that made sense. It tried to have a greater depth for its universe, which was still not something that we were used to in FPS which were before Quake 2 just a random selection of levels you had to fight through.

However, it didn't do it right. The levels all looked the same (I remember a lot of yellow and blue, and a bit of red), the mission objectives were pointless and there was no narrative to speak of. Half-Life had an equally shallow which it told a lot lot better, and was much better at all these other things Quake 2 tried to do.
:salute:

I might consider myself playing some SiN or some other Q2 engine games though. Anyone knows of a couple that stood well the test of time ? Or even Q2 Total Conversions.
SiN is p. decent. Graphically it's quite shitty, in terms of design it's your typical (in modern sense) plot-heavy shooter (something Q2 failed to be), some nonlinearity and somewhat duke-esque badass protagonist.

It features driveable vehicles, although they play a minor part.
It also features locational armour, locational damage skins and even ability to shoot somone's weapon out of their hands (bloody difficult, can also happen to you).
An interesting if rather gimmicky feature is computer terminals with workable interfaces, including command line, IIRC.

You may encounter some problems running it on modern OS.
 

Lyric Suite

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Unreal had some heavy scripting too at the beginning. Epic just gave up after the first level. Valve went all the way through. I don't see how Quake 2 even hinted towards that direction. The fact it had some slight story fag elements doesn't mean a whole lot.

Besides, story faggotry and scripting doesn't equal decline in and of itself. Jedi Knight was much heavier on story faggotry but the level design alone leaves both Quake 2 and Unreal into the dust. Alas, the graphics were shit so not a lot people tend to remember that one.

And Sin was not just decent, it was actually a great game, and a good counterpoint to Half Life.
 

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Half-Life started all of this. It may have been a C-grade movie, but it was truly a shit game

I don't think so. The real problem with Half Life is that it was actually a very good game. That's really the heart of the issue here. It took the genre towards a bad direction, but did it very well, which is why there is so much confusion surrounding the issue. Its a pity too because the genre was moving towards interesting directions with Thief, System Shock 2, No Ones Lives Forever and Deus Ex, but the popularity of Half Life was such that it overshadowed everything. Half Life was decline precisely because it was a great game.
 

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Half-Life started all of this. It may have been a C-grade movie, but it was truly a shit game

I don't think so. The real problem with Half Life is that it was actually a very good game. That's really the heart of the issue here. It took the genre towards a bad direction, but did it very well, which is why there is so much confusion surrounding the issue. Its a pity too because the genre was moving towards interesting directions with Thief, System Shock 2, No Ones Lives Forever and Deus Ex, but the popularity of Half Life was such that it overshadowed everything. Half Life was decline precisely because it was a great game.

I remember getting quite bored with HL about 1/2 way through. It felt suffocative, crawling through a tunnel.

What was "very good" about it? System Shock 2 actually did the scripting in more "passive" ways that allowed for greater illusion of freedom, which is also why it still had coop play. It was a far deeper game, as well. And, ironically, more immersive.

I think you're mixing quality with popularity. Unfortunately most gamers make for the "easily impressionable" crowd I mentioned above, which is why it became POPULAR. That doesn't mean it was anything close to "very good game".

As a game of its genre, it was far too rigid, as it traded cinematics for freedom of movement. It was heavily imitated by most every FPS that came after. It is quite likely that it gave way to the scripted horrors that we now witness in the Call of Duty series as well.

There are ways to take the Half-Life formula and make it tolerable. Crysis 2 did this with some degree of dignity, allowing for pockets of freedom between narrow scripted areas, and adding greater depth to player<---> enemy interactions. It did feel suffocative, but not as much as Half-Life... because Half-Life, for all intents and purposes, simply wasn't a "very good" game. It added nothing to gameplay, it just took things away.
 
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Quake 2 tried to be Half-Life and failed. Although Half-Life was released later. I liked the technology, but Quake 1 had that surreal, crazy, insane atmosphere that Quake 2 hadn't. I wasn't attracted to Q4 for the same reasons : while a decent shooter in its own rights, it shared a generic universe.
Generic? AFAIK aliens that use humans for spare parts for their fighting machines aren't exactly common.

Could you send me your copy of Q2? Mine seems deficient.

(Also, if I do this playthrough, I will probably settle for Q2 built-in demo recording utility)
Which version do you have? I have 3.20.
 

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DraQ, after you record the Quake 2 demo, play it back on your own computer, make a video and upload it somewhere.

Otherwise, not only I would have to reinstall Quake 2 over this, but being unable to skip back and forth is a bitch.
 

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Generic? AFAIK aliens that use humans for spare parts for their fighting machines aren't exactly common.
Strogg are just Borg with some added barbarian, warlike hint.
Evil cyborgs.
Etc.
Hardly novel.

Sure, "hardly novel" describes 99% of FPS enemies - for example Skaarj are just lizardmen Predators with small hint of hive/Alien qualities, but Q2 enemies are just non-menacing.
Maybe it's just a side effect of them being so impotent mechanically, maybe this and the fact that they are just tincans with some organic humanoid parts. Save for some exceptions (medic, parasite, brains and maybe all fliers) they don't look any more freaky than Jensen Christ and far less freaky than Gunther Hermann.
The exceptions don't really look freaky either, just weird and somewhat awkward.

Skaarj, OTOH, while being Predator ripoffs, also embody predatory grace and cunning.
Stroggs, at best only embody the kind of dumb, lifeless malice a computer is capable of when it starts bluescreening on startup.

Which version do you have? I have 3.20.
Also 3.20, I was poking fun at the fact enemies in yours seem to pose some threat, while in mine they just don't.

I don't think so. The real problem with Half Life is that it was actually a very good game. That's really the heart of the issue here. It took the genre towards a bad direction, but did it very well, which is why there is so much confusion surrounding the issue. Its a pity too because the genre was moving towards interesting directions with Thief, System Shock 2, No Ones Lives Forever and Deus Ex, but the popularity of Half Life was such that it overshadowed everything. Half Life was decline precisely because it was a great game.
I can agree with that.

Half-Life, for all intents and purposes, simply wasn't a "very good" game. It added nothing to gameplay, it just took things away.
Then what can you say about Q2?

What did it add if HL added "nothing"?

As for the scripting, there are ways around HL level scripting in coop, hell, standard "open shortcut to an earlier area" is typical workaround and HL uses it quite profusely. The problem with coop in HL wasn't technical problem introduced by scripting, it was the design problem with interactive parts being designed with single character in mind and the game itself heavily designed around single, named protagonist.
 

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Half-Life started all of this. It may have been a C-grade movie, but it was truly a shit game, and its "immershun atmosphere" on-rails intro sequence gloomily foreshadowed the decline of FPS industry over the next decade.

Half-Life was an awesome game...I still recall how amazed I was throughout my first playthrough (Ok maybe not so much with the giant foetus at the end). Yes it had scripting but people also forget that the core shooting mechanics and the enemy AI were also quite advanced for the time. The problem is that a lot of the games that have tried to copy it since have been nowhere near as accomplished. Even HL2 + expansions didn't really add much to the genre other than some amazing facial animation.

Q2 was a big graphical advance but the gameplay was still pretty much most enemies charging directly at you down dirty-brown corridors. I fondly remember the way you could shred enemies with certain weapons to globs of goop, but otherwise it was pretty unremarkable. Good multi though!
 

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Shooters are about targeting and resource management. Why does the linearity introduced with Half-Life (which really wasn't so bad, especially next to modern games - there were plenty of semi-open levels) make for a worse game? Yes, it eliminates co-op, but doesn't a more designed, directed experience have advantages too?
 

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Shooters are about targeting and resource management. Why does the linearity introduced with Half-Life (which really wasn't so bad, especially next to modern games - there were plenty of semi-open levels) make for a worse game? Yes, it eliminates co-op, but doesn't a more designed, directed experience have advantages too?

The reason HL wasn't "so bad" compared to modern games, it's because it started the avalanche of shitty, rigid scripting and developers getting away with wrestling more and more control from the player.

I have a problem with "designed, directed experience" which has me running into a wall on every step, reminding that I'm just a puppet in the hands of the "storyteller".

First person shooters shouldn't be the kind of games where you shoot 5 guys and then the pace is broken completely by some shitty physics puzzle (I'm looking at you, Half-Life 2).

FPS should allow for a sense of freedom, and the more illusion of freedom there is, the more player is rewarded for being emergently clever with his environment, the more evolved is the FPS in question.

Crysis was a good FPS in that respect. Duke3D was a good FPS. System Shock 2 was a good FPS. Doom 1/2 were good FPS too, because they had an honest key-door formula intermingled with complex level design, which rewarded the player for exploration and didn't make him feel completely trapped.

Half-Life 2 failed at this pretty badly, such as when I accidentally broke the scripting by abandoning my boat too early, and then spent hours being mowed down by an invincible helicopter, and then I finally figured it out and went back to get my boat from a previous "load area", and it disappeared.

Among with limiting freedom, this kind of shit scripting introduces a "George Lucas syndrome", where entities' properties are altered based on the writer's whim. Chopper should be invulnerable until this and that happens? Sure thang man.

Or like in FEAR, when you walk out the door and someone swings at you, you react and shoot them in the face, and then you're knocked out, because YOU CAN'T SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE BECAUSE THE STORY SAYS SO.

The ideal FPS is one that has consistent laws, and allows for player freedom yet does not rigidly control or predict - it merely CONTAINS the player's actions within a semi-flexible narrative that does not feel intrusive or shoved down one's throat via its manifestations in the game environment.

In the absence of that, I much rather prefer something like Crysis than something like Half-Life.

----

tl;dr I am mondblutian about FPS
 
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shihonage said:
Crysis was a good FPS in that respect
Huge plane with trees. Kinda boring freedom, brah.
and then the pace is broken completely by some shitty physics puzzle (I'm looking at you, Half-Life 2).
Implying HL2's pace isn't dead before, during or after any puzzle.

DRAQ ALSO RECORD BLOOD DEMO I WANNA SEE YOU MAKING ALL THOSE TACTICAL NOT-POPAMOLE COMBAT MOVES MMKAY THANKS
 

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Personally I find single player shooters pretty intolerable, but I love to play them multi-player. Of all the shooters I have played, the only ones I think I have clocked in single are Quake 1, Red Faction, Jedi Knight and Soldier of Fortune (and Deus Ex, but that isn't really the same genre).
 

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What's there to expound on? Half-Life and Quake 2 are both 3D games with not entirely dissimilar weapons and a variety of enemies, except Half-Life's level design is railroaded.

The only "advantage" of Half-Life over earlier FPS models is its "storyfagness" and the fact that it was the first FPS where people's mouths weren't painted-on textures.

As much of a storyfag I am, however, I've yet to be sucked into a story in any FPS game.

In order to observe the difference between the design of earlier FPS and Half-Life, one should observe the difference between 1996 version of Tomb Raider and its current "reimagining".

In the 1996 version, you immediately started off in the game, somersaulting and shooting your way through the levels.

In the current "reimagining", the game starts with you basically pressing forward over and over as your avatar stumbles between EPIC SHIT happening that you have zero control over.

The more such sequences there are in the game, the less replayability it has.

I've never desired to replay Half-Life, simply because there's no way to speed up the intro sequence and all the linear shit that follows - sometimes continuously, other times in chunks between crawling through ventilation ducts.

Half-Life didn't even manage the same level of narrative all the way through. It was front-loaded, mediocre in the middle, and ended with possibly some of the shittiest level design of any FPS, known as "Xen".
 

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Xen was shit, agreed. But it was still better than these repetitive concrete blocks that constituted all Quake 2 levels, with some stairs, buttons, and elevators thrown into the mix.

Shithonage, you're a fucking moron if you think Quake 2 has better level design than HL.
 

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What's there to expound on? Half-Life and Quake 2 are both 3D games with not entirely dissimilar weapons and a variety of enemies, except Half-Life's level design is railroaded.
It's not like Q2 is the epitome of nonlinearity either (though at least in terms of spatial layout it's levels are nice - especially the palace hub where you can bypass somewhere around 60% of upper palace, thematically they are monotonous and suck, though), plus Q2 has an important disadvantage:
The part of this shooter where you shoot shit and avoid getting shot yourself - AKA the shooter part - sucks horribly.

Pretty much every enemy in Q2 has some crippling delay introduced before seeing you and firing.
Pretty much every enemy is not only incapable of leading the target but incapable of keeping even a hitscan weapon trained on moving target with something like 0.2s tracking delay. Some can't even track at all once they start firing.
Enemies, even those using the same types of weapon as you do, deal about half of damage and that's on hard (it's halved again on easy IIRC), which means that even if you strip naked and stand in front of fucking gladiator with a fucking railgun waving your dick in his face he won't kill you with one shot and will barely manage to kill you with two - provided you stand still allowing him to hit you. In comparison, gunner, which is supposed to be armour-plated cyborg monstrosity is not just killed but gibbed in two shots from *your* railgun. One if you are stealthy and get 2x backstab multiplier.
Pretty much every enemy has lengthy, easily triggered pain frames meaning that you will likely be able to prevent them from firing at all even with a slow weapon.
No enemy save for brains (which is completely harmless due to moving so slow that snail could circlestrafe it), has any sort of armour or resistance to different types of damage.
Barely any enemy can navigate shit.

Then you have pretty nice armour with pretty nice damage reduction mechanics that would actually work nicely in some other game where you can get hit hard, power shield you don't have to ever deactivate after first finding it, and tons of powerups you won't even manage to use up before finding replacements.

That's in addition to ample geometry to hide behind, that ensures whatever protections you have will remain mostly unused.

And then you have fucking chaingun to ensure that even the toughest enemy won't last more than several seconds if for some reason you don't have anything to hide behind - shit'll fucking gib a tank before it manages to fall down if you don't let off the trigger fast enough.
You can quad it too for even more excessive rape.

The only "advantage" of Half-Life over earlier FPS models is its "storyfagness" and the fact that it was the first FPS where people's mouths weren't painted-on textures.
Q2 is strongly storyfag, you have clearly defined and arguably sensible train of objectives you pursue in clearly defined succession of locales, the difference is that it sucks on this front too due to being full of monotonous poo.


As much of a storyfag I am, however, I've yet to be sucked into a story in any FPS game.
It's not as much story as sequence of events, enemies and locations making some sort of sense and staying diverse to avoid boredom. Q2 utterly fails at the "diverse" part and doesn't exactly pioneer the "sense" part (and is very simple in this regard too, even compared to much older games).

In order to observe the difference between the design of earlier FPS and Half-Life, one should observe the difference between 1996 version of Tomb Raider and its current "reimagining".

In the 1996 version, you immediately started off in the game, somersaulting and shooting your way through the levels.

In the current "reimagining", the game starts with you basically pressing forward over and over as your avatar stumbles between EPIC SHIT happening that you have zero control over.

The more such sequences there are in the game, the less replayability it has.
Indeed, but HL doesn't have many such sequences - intro is railroaded, obviously, but after that, it's not really worse than Q2, with possible exception of (aptly named) "On A Rail" chapter where you spend most of the time riding a rail car while shooting shit and negotiating hazards.

Ok, "Residue Processing" was pretty abysmal platformer section.

I've never desired to replay Half-Life, simply because there's no way to speed up the intro sequence
There is and a very simple one - make save at the end of intro part, keep it.

Half-Life didn't even manage the same level of narrative all the way through. It was front-loaded, mediocre in the middle, and ended with possibly some of the shittiest level design of any FPS, known as "Xen".
At least Xen made an interesting and alien environment completely different from everything you've seen during the remainder of the game which alone puts it ahead of Q2.
 

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Oh? Expound.
Shihonnage actually covered most points I would make, major one being the level of linearity. Someone (sea I think?) tried to lay down the essential features of FPS, and missed IMO the most essential one: level design. But, there can be no level design in a linear shooter (and by linear I mean each level being a straight line - I know some people will try to be funny with "but Doom is linear because you cannot go back to previous levels!"), by definition. Because each level is, well, a line. I'd argue that Q2 had pretty good level design (though in terms of this kind of structure I prefer Hexen's), even if its art style was very uninspired and didn't help enough to make each location look distinct. HL has an edge with enemies being much more distinct from each other, and took better advantage of enemy placement (especially within its constrictive linearity). But I will take open, multiple-objective hub any day over "please follow the yellow line".

The part of this shooter where you shoot shit and avoid getting shot yourself - AKA the shooter part - sucks horribly.
I think you're being hyperbolic here. Sure it's not great, it has plenty of problems (and you've gone enough at length about them that I don't think I need to point any of them out), but it's not bad enough to say "it sucks horribly". And sure, enemy AI in Q2 has its share of problems, but it's not as if HL's are perfect and great (we've had this discussion in another thread). Sure it's better in HL, but again, it's not good enough to suppor the entire game when there's nothing but repetitive corridor after corridor to go through. And HL automatically loses a huge chunk of points for Xen (yeah, I know you like Xen, but if I wanted platforming I'd play a platformer - and there's a reason I don't play those).

And then you have fucking chaingun to ensure that even the toughest enemy won't last more than several seconds if for some reason you don't have anything to hide behind - shit'll fucking gib a tank before it manages to fall down if you don't let off the trigger fast enough.
I think you give the CG too much credit. Sure if you have full ammo it's ridiculously overpowered - but it also eats through your entire ammo VERY quickly, and while there's a lot of ammo around, there isn't enough to rely on it all the time. I'm not excusing the design, but it's just not an automatic I WIN button (the enemy design, OTOH, is).

Q2 is strongly storyfag, you have clearly defined and arguably sensible train of objectives you pursue in clearly defined succession of locales
Oh come on. That's like saying Doom is strongly storyfag because you have a sensible train of objectives, ie find keys to unlock doors to push end level switch.
HL storyfag = endless UNSKIPPABLE introduction that goes on for MANY MINUTES, a whole bunch of unskippable cutscenes* all over the game where you have to listen to people rambling on before they open a door for you, etc.
Q2 storyfag = "locate and destroy Big Gun."

There is and a very simple one - make save at the end of intro part, keep it.
It's a practical solution, but it doesn't excuse having to do this in the first place. Also, either you're downplaying how many HL-cutscenes there are, or I'm remembering more than they are. Guess I'll have to replay the game to be sure...

At least Xen made an interesting and alien environment completely different from everything you've seen during the remainder of the game which alone puts it ahead of Q2.
Xen needs to die in a fire.
DIE DIE DIE :x

*We've been through this too.
 

DemonKing

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When I first played HL I was almost crying tears of joy at how fantastic it was, whereas when I first fired up Q2 I merely thought it reminded me of a more graphically advanced version of DOOM.

Crysis was the best FPS of 2004 though ahead of HL2 IMO.
 

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