Decline I hate what has been done to video game mages/wizards because I play shitty action games

[DragoFireheart]

Older/real cRPGs: Mages are terrible with even the most mundane and basic weapon, barely able to hit the broad side of a barn. Staves that cast magic are difficult and/or are rare, limited in use, but are also powerful tools. Spell casting is limited but extremely powerful, with non-damaging spells (sleep/stun/instant death/buffs) being some of the most powerful magics available to the mage. Casting big damaging spells is still an option but isn't a true measure of the mage's power. Old and/or long time mages are basically gods, unfazed by puny men with metal sticks.

Modern day RPGs/cRPG wannabes: Mages carry staves that are basically laser guns and shoot all kinds of colorful rainbow arrows at whatever you are fighting and spam a display of fire/ice/lightning balls of Gay Pride Parade majestic Dance Dance Revolution blah. Status effects are all but useless, instant death spells cost 99% of your mana pool and have a 0.000000000000001% of actually happening, most buffs are either ridiculously overpowered or completely useless. Magic is usually either only as strong as a Warrior or significantly weaker. Everyone and their brother is a competent mage but even the most powerful mage will easily fall to a competent warrior.

EDIT: Dragon's Dogma is a good action RPG don't be hatin bro.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

in the name of balance

 

[Darth Roxor]

The worst thing is they've all been deprived of their pimpin' clothes.

 

[adure]

bringing the sexy to the magic

 

[Damned Registrations]

Your problem is that you play shit games like Dragon Age. Play something more like Eador Genesis or Shadowrun Returns.

 

[pippin]

Shadowrun Returns.

Going with a mage through Dragonfall DC, and yeah, that and rigger are probably the best classes when it comes to planning, tactics and that strange concept known as fun.

 

[k0syak]

I think it started way back with enemy spellcasters being disguised riflemen (like in M&M3). Don't remember if PC mages were like that before Diablo.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think it started way back with enemy spellcasters being disguised riflemen (like in M&M3). Don't remember if PC mages were like that before Diablo.

To be fair, all the spells that make mages awesome in M&M3 would be useless to enemies. Shit like teleport, float, lloyd's beacon, wizard eye, etc.

And the best spells in Diablo were blink, teleport, and mana shield. Though, in the opposite order. I seem to recall stone curse being fairly useful as well, though chain lightning was undeniably effective as well (and didn't chain at all.) Firewall was insanely good too. Not that I'd consider Diablo any more of a crpg than Dark Souls.

Roguelikes have always done the best job of mage PCs by far. They get all sorts of awesome utility spells, and extra costs worked in like hunger or spell memory (which made the books function sort of like reagents.) And of course, adding to your spell list randomly is far more rewarding than just getting it predictably as you level up, and more than compensated for the lack of cool weapons or armour.

Thats probably the most important distinction, actually. Although it's counterintuitive, having mage PCs buy or loot their spells is far more atmospheric than having them gain them as they increase in power (level.) Whether it's in MM3, Diablo or Eador, gaining new spells for your casters felt special. You don't really get that feeling by hitting level 12 in Diablo 2.

 

[mastroego]

Everyone and their brother is a competent mage but even the most powerful mage will easily fall to a competent warrior.

Rejoice!
In future games Might will govern spell damage as well as melee damage, so it's all been balanced back again!

 

[Slow James]

Television.

Television is to blame for this - you see this in bad television.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Although it's counterintuitive, having mage PCs buy or loot their spells is far more atmospheric than having them gain them as they increase in power (level.) Whether it's in MM3, Diablo or Eador, gaining new spells for your casters felt special. You don't really get that feeling by hitting level 12 in Diablo 2.

I agree with all but the counter intuitive part.

Having to learn new magic from spells is much more logical than spontaneously learning new spells without a specific explanation.

 

[Athelas]

Not really, considering you 'learn' those spells that you find in a fraction of a second. Getting spells on level ups can be seen as an abstraction of time and practice. Though I prefer the former approach myself.

 

[Slow James]

Although it's counterintuitive, having mage PCs buy or loot their spells is far more atmospheric than having them gain them as they increase in power (level.) Whether it's in MM3, Diablo or Eador, gaining new spells for your casters felt special. You don't really get that feeling by hitting level 12 in Diablo 2.

I agree with all but the counter intuitive part.

Having to learn new magic from spells is much more logical than spontaneously learning new spells without a specific explanation.

Agreed. Magical manifestation of Magic is counterintuitive.

Also, the design focus on combat skills to the detriment (or even ommission) of non-combat skills is a large culprit. When everything becomes about combat, Wizards suffer. They should have utility spells that keep the party safe from magical threats or overcome otherwise unsurmountable obstacles, but then be made of glass in a fight, aside from the emergency nuke spell.

When everything became about combat (or, conversely, the shift away from party mechanics to single character control), that's when the mage was transformed into a laser show archer. Bring back non-combat party skills to a game and you'll see the return of the logical wizard design.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well I mean how it seems so tacky to have some sort of magic wall mart that sell you neatly packaged spells. That seems like horseshit on the face of it. You'd think casting specific spells would be a result of learning new techniques and methods, not finding some specific incantation scribbled somewhere that you can just repeat to make a spell happen. I guess the skills required are abstracted into the level requirement to purchase/learn those spells, but it still strikes me as odd.

The one way where I think spells on level up do work out is when there's more detail on the magic knowledge side of things. Like levelling up allows you to increase your levels in various schools/aspects of magic, and certain combinations of those schools and aspects unlock new spells.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I prefer leraning spells via books and scrolls because then you can hide powerful spells behind powerful foes to make getting them more interesting. Finding new loot is only as fun as the encounter you beat to get said loot is difficult. It's kinda boring when Warriors are the only ones who get all the fun and joy from looting.

 

[Athelas]

Well I mean how it seems so tacky to have some sort of magic wall mart that sell you neatly packaged spells. That seems like horseshit on the face of it. You'd think casting specific spells would be a result of learning new techniques and methods, not finding some specific incantation scribbled somewhere that you can just repeat to make a spell happen. I guess the skills required are abstracted into the level requirement to purchase/learn those spells, but it still strikes me as odd.

It's not odd if you think of magic as a science where spells are formulae that are discovered and like any other formula, can be replicated. D&D takes this approach for wizard spells, I believe.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Dark Spire started nice, with mages having 4-5 hp at level 1 and being able to cast 2-3 spells before having to go back to town to rest. And one of those spells was showing where you were at the map (1 time per use), because artificial difficulty Etrian Odyssey is for pussies. And no melee attack with out equipping a staff or asigning them on the front row. 21st century - when recycling 80s inventions means being ahead of your competition.

Again we can see that story faggotry and real time are the root of all evil, since both negate party creation, and in single player games every class must be equal in every situation more or less.

Television.

Television is to blame for this - you see this in bad television.

Actually it's because of balance

 

[Murk]

It's not odd if you think of magic as a science where spells are formulae that are discovered and like any other formula, can be replicated. D&D takes this approach for wizard spells, I believe.

I did always appreciate the "schools of magic" and legacy. Like 'Mordenkainen's Magic Sword' or 'Melf's Minute Meteors /// Melf's Acid Arrow' -- it was kind of like how certain mathematical theorems work, where you have a specific creator and then the tool/function they have. It helped to build up a background and a sense of progress -- that these are real wizards that can work actively to come up with magic instead of just variants of fireballs.

Depending on the game, various specific systems can be useful. Gothic 2, for instance, had you actually make your own Ruins which was kind of neat. The use of it then turned it into a wand with bullets (mana) but the 'creation' process was dope. Need reagents, the knowledge, and a workstation and then you make it.

I definitely agree with those who say magic should be found or constructed tho -- the whole "ding, fatter lightning bolts now" is pretty dull.

 

[Karellen]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Well I mean how it seems so tacky to have some sort of magic wall mart that sell you neatly packaged spells. That seems like horseshit on the face of it. You'd think casting specific spells would be a result of learning new techniques and methods, not finding some specific incantation scribbled somewhere that you can just repeat to make a spell happen. I guess the skills required are abstracted into the level requirement to purchase/learn those spells, but it still strikes me as odd.

It's not odd if you think of magic as a science where spells are formulae that are discovered and like any other formula, can be replicated. D&D takes this approach for wizard spells, I believe.

I prefer to think of it more as an engineering problem. Like, knowing the formula for how a particular set of pulleys work isn't really useful, what matters is understanding the concept of how and why they work, so you can use them in appropriate ways. Though I suppose building a bomb would be a closer analogy. My image a a wizard is someone who knows how to build bombs from the bottom up, based on the physics and chemical properties, not someone who knows recipes for various bombs but has no idea how they work or how to make substitutions.

 

[Slow James]

Well I mean how it seems so tacky to have some sort of magic wall mart that sell you neatly packaged spells. That seems like horseshit on the face of it. You'd think casting specific spells would be a result of learning new techniques and methods, not finding some specific incantation scribbled somewhere that you can just repeat to make a spell happen. I guess the skills required are abstracted into the level requirement to purchase/learn those spells, but it still strikes me as odd.

It's not odd if you think of magic as a science where spells are formulae that are discovered and like any other formula, can be replicated. D&D takes this approach for wizard spells, I believe.

Depending on the edition, but yes - that is correct. The DM also has the ability to allow players to research a particular spell they want, maybe create a quest to find specific ingredients, magical totems, etc. to help add the spell to the Wizards spellbook outside of finding a certain scroll. One of the amazing aspects of PnP RPGs is the creativity allowed to create content for the characters playing, custom tailored to them.

 

[k0syak]

It's worth noting that the squishy wizard in robes is to a large extent a Dungeons & Dragons thing, from where it trickled down everywhere else. In a whole lot of myth and literature, magic is largely used by the same people who do any sort of heroic or villainous things, and anthropologically speaking, in societies that believed in magic, the people considered to have magic powers tended to be big, powerful and charismatic people - certainly not the guys who were picked last in gym class.

That's not to say that I don't feel a degree of affection for the D&D style of wizardry, especially compared to the modern fare - at least it imbues magic with some aesthetic and theme beyond wizards being glorified field artillery that shoots out kewl magic beams and not much else. But I think that's largely an issue of treading the same high fantasy waters as well as RPGs so often being almost exclusively combat-oriented, to the effect that all characters have to be equally combat-viable and not much else. Rather than returning to the old D&D wizards, I think it'd be much preferable if magic, both mechanically and in terms of different settings, was diversified a great deal from what we see now.

Physically weak wizards are logical if you consider they spent most of their time sniffing glue in libraries and meditating. Having next to no physical activities or learning related skills takes a toll. In RL a person like that can't just grab a sword and start swinging (also trying to punch someone would result in a broken hand).

 

[V_K]

Also, the design focus on combat skills to the detriment (or even ommission) of non-combat skills is a large culprit. When everything becomes about combat, Wizards suffer. They should have utility spells that keep the party safe from magical threats or overcome otherwise unsurmountable obstacles, but then be made of glass in a fight, aside from the emergency nuke spell.

When everything became about combat (or, conversely, the shift away from party mechanics to single character control), that's when the mage was transformed into a laser show archer. Bring back non-combat party skills to a game and you'll see the return of the logical wizard design.

Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the facts: there's nothing to bring back, there are literally no CPRGs that do non-combat magic any sort of justice. Even Quest for Glory games are rather underwhelming in their spell assortment.

 

[Slow James]

Well I mean how it seems so tacky to have some sort of magic wall mart that sell you neatly packaged spells. That seems like horseshit on the face of it. You'd think casting specific spells would be a result of learning new techniques and methods, not finding some specific incantation scribbled somewhere that you can just repeat to make a spell happen. I guess the skills required are abstracted into the level requirement to purchase/learn those spells, but it still strikes me as odd.

It's not odd if you think of magic as a science where spells are formulae that are discovered and like any other formula, can be replicated. D&D takes this approach for wizard spells, I believe.

I prefer to think of it more as an engineering problem. Like, knowing the formula for how a particular set of pulleys work isn't really useful, what matters is understanding the concept of how and why they work, so you can use them in appropriate ways. Though I suppose building a bomb would be a closer analogy. My image a a wizard is someone who knows how to build bombs from the bottom up, based on the physics and chemical properties, not someone who knows recipes for various bombs but has no idea how they work or how to make substitutions.

This would be interesting to see a system that approached an experimental Magic system, where a wizard could try to use a spell they haven't been taught formerly, with penalty modifiers that could be like a warrior using a weapon they don't have the strength to wield it. It could be counted balanced by the wizard's intelligence, power, knowledge of the branch of Magic, etc.


Just spitballing, don't mind me...

 

[TheGreatOne]

Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the facts: there's nothing to bring back, there are literally no CPRGs that do non-combat magic any sort of justice. Even Quest for Glory games are rather underwhelming in their spell assortment.

I reckon it's a hard thing to balance, and not just in the JES definition of the word. Same as RPGs where you can hack/bribe/talk/stealth your way out of combat situations. Either it's too easy or too hard. Also that would likely require a lot of puzzle style design and more dangerously: players the ability to think for themselves&outside the box and use their spells creatively, which really would really make fitting divide between warriors and wizards but will never happen in any big budget RPG. You could do a single player RPG with just 3 classes: warrior, wizard and rogue, all 3 playing drastically differently (kind of like Quest for Glory). Puzzle like design is also a hard thing to balance, either things are too obtuse and every one will re-roll a warrior because it's a lot faster or there a couple of good utility spells and every puzzle is telegraphed to the player in a very obvious way.