Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

How RPG fans ruined RPGs: Telengard on the Fiery BioWhore and the True Nature of the Awesome Button

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
Well someone created it. I don't care who.
Too much edginess without any effort put into making convinceable arguments. But I guess that's not necessary is you feel so superior.
Superior? I was on the losing side of a war that you'all power-gamers won more than 20 years ago. That's not being superior; that's just being old. If you want to read about the war, it's still out there, on the pages of Dragon Magazine and dead forums. From a time when "power creep" was as hated as streamlined is today.
But then again, why not just use a simple retard meme instead?
A picture can tell a thousand words, but only in an emotional manner, not a logical. It's the female way to fight. I fight like a man.
Would have achieved the same with a fraction of the effort.
True.
Also ignoring posters who tell you that nothing you rant about has any of the effects you claim it has, making up stories about dumbing down by creating more choices when the opposite is happening everywhere right now, dumbing down by making games more "accessible" and movie-like, meaning removing choices.
People really should play ancient rpgs, where there are absolutely no character sheet choice at all, before they make comments like that. Games of old had only choice of tactics and strategy. Now all that's left is character sheet choices and story choices. Which DA:O provides more of than old D&D ever did.
Games like BG2 are not dumb at all (some Codexers like to make it out to be because after 500 hours with the game and memorizing every encounter and the hard counters they have to use in it they start to get a bit bored so game has to be shit^^), using convoluted rulesets full of spells and abilities might be an easy way for game designers to get the player engaged, but it certainly works.
The people who declared BG to be a streamlined, simple version of D&D were - shocker - Bioware itself in their advertising. And the reviewers of the day picked it up and repeated it ad nauseum. Many of which quotes can still be found today. And since I have even quoted them all on the Codex before, easily more easily findable now. The Biowhore made a streamlined game, and happily cashed a check from 2 million in moved product.
Later games like DA:O didn't have as many options and little "awesome button" mechanics anyway, but others already pointed that out.
The Telengard remake is free. Try it. You'll hate it.

Not that it really matters. You could just look at the character sheet of DA:O and compare it to an actual casual game, like Dungeon Siege. But I know, that would be too much work.
So in the end none of the claims in your rants have any merit to them, the conclusions you draw are logical fallacies and you don't even try to connect cause and effect, since that's beneath you I suppose. You just keep on ranting.
Are they all fallacies. When I am quoting Bioware and game reviewers, and you all are quoting Misty water-colored memories of the way we were
Fucking Codex edgelords, I swear.
Mm hmm.

fuck you and everything you stand for
 
Unwanted

The Nameless Pun

Unwanted
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
224
Is p&p dnd such a tactics masterpiece? No, becauase this guy talks only of tactics and strategy, I don't know, maybe you are in the wrong forum, you know? We talk about rpgs here. But most certainly I'm just too stupid to get your point, 'cause apparently this is some kind of "dialogue concerning the two chief world Systems" so it's ok to vomit pages of nonsense.
No, really pal, I don't understand the fuck you are saying. Granted, I didn't read the other pages, but what the fuck. It seems like you want to give your personal interpretation on the history of rpgs, a unique spin so that everyone else is wrong and you're the only light source left on a world populated by retards. I look around and see decline everywhere, I was discussing with a friend the other day who kept saying fallout 4 is better t'han 1 'cause bethesda's da best. I see new dragon age shit being made and stupid third person shooters labeled as rpgs. We are having a bit of incline now with new games but they are nothing compared to the storm we are trapped inside. Really, is all this necessary? Shitting on fellow codexers and such? We are swimming in a bottomless ocean of shit and now you come here as some sort of prophet shouting that the raft we've been using is a mass of solid shit capable of floating over the liquid shit we call sea. Wow, awesome, now that changes everyrhing. Thank you for this revelation. Yes, yes, I'm too stupid to get your point, if this is the case, I ask you to take it as a personal challenge and explain to me the meaning of your positions.
 
Last edited:

Mustawd

Guest
Granted, I didn't read the other pages,


I ask you to take it as a personal challenge and explain to me the meaning of your positions.


:retarded: Are you retarded? He explained his position in the earlier pages you nimwit. Stop being such a baby and read them. I can already tell you're a biotard who needs everything spoon fed to him. Thanks for outing yourself, so we can stop wasting our time trying to discuss something with someone we think is an actual adult.
 
Unwanted

The Nameless Pun

Unwanted
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
224
Granted, I didn't read the other pages,


I ask you to take it as a personal challenge and explain to me the meaning of your positions.


:retarded: Are you retarded? He explained his position in the earlier pages you nimwit. Stop being such a baby and read them. I can already tell you're a biotard who needs everything spoon fed to him. Thanks for outing yourself, so we can stop wasting our time trying to discuss something with someone we think is an actual adult.
Sorry pal if I can't lose my time reading retarded edginess because I have a life, apparently the thing you don't have since you love so much feeling superior. Either you are a teen, or an adult with the brain of a teen, since your attitude is the same of bethestards. Personally, I have still to play the baldur's gate Series and i hate modern bioware games, so your claims are absolutely childish and immature. In case you didn't notice I was talking with the op not with some retard who can't argument his positions, let him shit me. I'd strongly suggest you vent your frustrations somewhere else.
 

Mustawd

Guest
I have still to play the baldur's gate Series

Good. Spare yourself the derpness.

Sorry pal if I can't lose my time reading retarded edginess because I have a life

You really must be retarded. I mean you're basically asking him to text dump the whole thing again. You complained about his walls of text previously, and said they are unreadable (which I actually disagree with). How do you think he'll communicate his ideas to you a second time if not just repeating what he's said already?

EDIT: Also, this thread is barely 6 pages. How long is that? 15 minutes? Please, you probably spend more time reading real shit threads than this one.
 
Unwanted

The Nameless Pun

Unwanted
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
224
I have still to play the baldur's gate Series

Good. Spare yourself the derpness.

Sorry pal if I can't lose my time reading retarded edginess because I have a life

You really must be retarded. I mean you're basically asking him to text dump the whole thing again. You complained about his walls of text previously, and said they are unreadable (which I actually disagree with). How do you think he'll communicate his ideas to you a second time if not just repeating what he's said already?

EDIT: Also, this thread is barely 6 pages. How long is that? 15 minutes? Please, you probably spend more time reading real shit threads than this one.
You make a good point actually, but I had high expectations in the power of summary.
EDIT: sorry for the heavy words I used, it wasn't my intention. It's the edginess, it's almost unbearable, and the self righteousness in believing that one is right no matter what others say. It's the ugliest thing in internet communities. Behind meaningless labels, people here on the codex act in the same way as on consoletard forums, just with more words and colourful tastes, of course.
 
Last edited:

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
All I got out of this thread is that 3rd edition D&D is about the "Awesome Button". Which apparently is that any choice you make is valid. We talking about the same game? Because there are far more means of permagimping yourself in character creation in 3rd edition than in any of the previous ones.

29uy2p0.jpg


The very first impactful choice you make is "class" and that's a minefield of noob traps right there.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
This is the true nature of the Awesome Button. Placing player choice and empowerment above all.

What choice? They don't need choices, in plural, they need one choice: the ability to kill everything that moves.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
Thus is Bioware. You created them in your image. "Player choice uber alles."

Well, everything you say about Bioware is true, but at least they implement some reactivity in CRPGs, which is a good thing in itself, even if it was poorly implemented. This talk about decline it’s more complicated than it seems at first sight, because it’s not always easy to track the origin of a game feature that is now widely used to point the fingers at the responsible. People love talk about how horrible and decadent RTwP combat system is, and they are eager to put all the blame on BG2, but this feature was first implemented by Darklands, which is a classic. I also notice that everyone likes to criticize trash mobs as an synonym of modern gaming, but a lot of old-school games were literally filled with trash mobs. The list goes on. It seems that some aspects of the decline was always present, but things got worse because we are losing the positive game features that balanced the retarded ideas.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
The Biowhorean game DA:O offers every class a long list of special abilities and powers that each class can then implement in combat, and many of those abilities can be chosen by anyone. Fighters need more to do than just select attack!'. And that is exactly what the Biowhore gave them.

'There needs to be lots of character interaction and writing!' And that is exactly what the Biowhore gave 'When I make a choice on my character sheet, the choice needs to be visible on my character!' And that is exactly what Biowhore gave. 'And my character needs lots and lots of choices on his character sheet!' And that is exactly what Biowhore gave, dumping in bunches of armors and hairs and powers, all of them visible in the game.

The problem in your argument is that more abilities for each class, more character interaction, more writing and more character customization do not imply automatically in popamolization and are not bad things per se. In the end, it all amounts to the way they are implemented. And by the way, both melee combat and reactivity in DA:O are miles ahead of those in BG2.
 

DeN DarK

Educated
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
54
Location
Whitestone One, First Throne, Forty Forties
The Biowhorean game DA:O offers every class a long list of special abilities and powers that each class can then implement in combat, and many of those abilities can be chosen by anyone. Fighters need more to do than just select attack!'. And that is exactly what the Biowhore gave them.

'There needs to be lots of character interaction and writing!' And that is exactly what the Biowhore gave 'When I make a choice on my character sheet, the choice needs to be visible on my character!' And that is exactly what Biowhore gave. 'And my character needs lots and lots of choices on his character sheet!' And that is exactly what Biowhore gave, dumping in bunches of armors and hairs and powers, all of them visible in the game.

More character interactions in RPGs are bad? More choices on character sheet is bad? More item options are bad? More story are bad?
What is good then? Less story, character interactions, no char sheet and no inventory? Wow. We have shooter in isometry.

Problem in Bioware games recently - is LESS meaningful char interactions, LESS inventory options (compare weapons in DA3 and in BG2), less char. options (compare mage choice of spells in BG2 and DA:3). Story I can't compare - but for me it seems story quality in BG2 was better.

I sure that DA:3 wasn't cRPG shaped by cRPG community. It was shaped by greed of EA, impotency of Bioware and mass-market. And trying to lay blame on Codex for that - plain stupidity.
That why we hiding behind "cRPG" - because "RPG" novadays mean nothing. Fallout 4 and DA:3 is RPGs. Meaning of RPGs reshaped by devs and customers. From sales POV RPGs sales very well. Better than modern cRPGs or classic cRPGs. In short - someone already said here - Bioware went to the mass-market, to the bigger sales and wider audience. And wider audience had different tastes. Plus Bioware it seems just can't make good games anymore. Maybe they don't have stuff for it. Comparing between Witcher 3 and DA:3 (if you willing to play not only in cRPGs) - Witcher is much better.
 

kwanzabot

Cipher
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
597
man some of you guys need to CHILL out lol i read like maybe 1/10th of telengard's post and realized he may aswell be a human tampon and didn't bother with the rest
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
More character interactions in RPGs are bad? More choices on character sheet is bad? More item options are bad?

According to Telengard, yes. Read my posts ITT to understand why (think of me as his interpreter :obviously: )
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Every post in this forum is srs bsns and must be addresed individually.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
The problem in your argument is that more abilities for each class, more character interaction, more writing and more character customization do not imply automatically in popamolization and are not bad things per se. In the end, it all amounts to the way they are implemented. And by the way, both melee combat and reactivity in DA:O are miles ahead of those in BG2.
That's the tricky bit. Those things don't lead to popamolization. But they lead to unbalanced, broken combat. And if people would say, hey, I want choice and don't care if it breaks the combat. Then, okay, you got no beef with me.

The issue is, long ago people demanded choice, and when told that it would break combat said: "It's doesn't matter, as long as it's fun." (They even said it on this very forum, which is what sparked this whole thing.) And now rpgs all have broken combat, and people are suddenly saying, "Hey, where did all the quality combat go?"

Everyone here is a little older now than when you were a starry-eyed rugrat playing your first rpg, and it's time to make an adult decision. What is important to you? Combat balance, which leads to quality combat, or lots of character customization mixed with lots of story interaction for your choiced character, which doesn't (it can lead to having a lot of choice in combat, but not a lot of balance). Pick one. But if you pick story interaction and customization, and then ask where the quality combat went, I and anyone else from the old days is going to say, We told you so.

EDIT: what does lead to popamolization is mixing story interaction and character customization with super power-style movesets, the power fantasy, and Joseph Campbell heroic myth.
 
Unwanted

The Nameless Pun

Unwanted
Joined
Aug 29, 2015
Messages
224
The problem in your argument is that more abilities for each class, more character interaction, more writing and more character customization do not imply automatically in popamolization and are not bad things per se. In the end, it all amounts to the way they are implemented. And by the way, both melee combat and reactivity in DA:O are miles ahead of those in BG2.
That's the tricky bit. Those things don't lead to popamolization. But they lead to unbalanced, broken combat. And if people would say, hey, I want choice and don't care if it breaks the combat. Then, okay, you got no beef with me.

The issue is, long ago people demanded choice, and when told that it would break combat said: "It's doesn't matter, as long as it's fun." (They even said it on this very forum, which is what sparked this whole thing.) And now rpgs all have broken combat, and people are suddenly saying, "Hey, where did all the quality combat go?"

Everyone here is a little older now than when you were a starry-eyed rugrat playing your first rpg, and it's time to make an adult decision. What is important to you? Combat balance, which leads to quality combat, or lots of character customization mixed with lots of story interaction for your choiced character, which doesn't (it can lead to having a lot of choice in combat, but not a lot of balance). Pick one. But if you pick story interaction and customization, and then ask where the quality combat went, I and anyone else from the old days is going to say, We told you so.

EDIT: what does lead to popamolization is mixing story interaction and character customization with super power-style movesets, the power fantasy, and Joseph Campbell heroic myth.
Which rpgs have good combat?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom