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How do I get into Wizardry's mindset?

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
So, let me start saying that I admit that I'm a popamole.

My whole life I've been playing the "press X to win" games and have been fine with it.

Lately, I've got some interest in dungeon crawling games, after I saw some guy playing Labyrinth of Touhou on Twitch. Needless to say, I tried playing it but it seemed EXTREMELY COMPLEX from someone like me who doesn't have experience in the genre.

So, with that in mind, I decided to go back and start with the basics, and for what I understand, the Wizardry series is one good place to start since it is one that is here forever and was always well received.

I started playing the first scenario of the SNES version (is that a good one to start with?), and, again, I was DILACERATED by almost every enemy I found in my way. Even though I was liking the experience, I thought it was time to go and find help with the wise men from the internet.

I have a few questions about how getting along with the game (so far I got to the second floor having a lot of trouble):

1) I understand that there is a spell that tells your position in the dungeon, but I think that this is not OK and since one of my interests in the game is the exploration part, I'm sticking with drawing my maps now. But I won't do all of this if later I get a spell that will simply give me a full map, so, what should I do? Keep drawing my maps or wait for a good-mapping-spell?

2) I created a very retarded party (well, at least I think this is how I should rank it since I died like 300 times so far). 3 human fighters on the front row, a bishop, a wizard and a cleric on the back row. I understand that this must be far from ideal, so, for a beginner, what would be a "semi-op" party? (mind you, I plan on replaying the game later, so I don't mind if I finish for the first time on "easy mode" just to get along and know more about the genre).

3) Is it normal to die so much in this game? I mean, I had my share of "OMG DARK SOULS IS THE HARDEST THING EVER" with my games, but this seems a bit...unusual. Is not uncommon for me to have 2 or 3 characters dying right on the first floor and having to reset things all over again. Which leads me to my final question (so far)..

4) What is the "norm" about reseting, keep going forward with dead members in this kind of games? I'm asking these because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and every fucking time a char dies or gets some fucked up status like poison, I feel like reseting (even more if you consider that you have to sell a kidney to resurrect a dead member). So, how to deal with this? SHould I just accept my losses and keep creating a new party member every time one dies or should I just keep resetting?

Any help in this matter will be extremely appreciated. I know that it sounds like I'm just complaining, but for the few parts I could see of the game (as I said, floor one and two), I'm already loving it and really happy to know that there is another 7 games in the series for me to play!
 

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
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Ahem. Pardonne, monsieur. aweigh
Really though, they are challenging games, you ARE going to lose parties. As for the version I prefer DOS, but that's mostly just preference. For the mindset, it's hard to explain. Like I said, just get used to the fact that characters might (will) die, and that sometimes it will seem unfair.
Lastly, as someone who was originally a popamoler, welcome to a new world. Have fun, don't kick the bucket (or your PC) too soon. If you get frustrated, don't hesitate to take a break and play something else for a bit. Llylgamyn will always call its heroes back.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,013
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
1) I understand that there is a spell that tells your position in the dungeon, but I think that this is not OK and since one of my interests in the game is the exploration part, I'm sticking with drawing my maps now. But I won't do all of this if later I get a spell that will simply give me a full map, so, what should I do? Keep drawing my maps or wait for a good-mapping-spell?
Yes, you need to draw your own maps. You should use Dumapic.
2) I created a very retarded party (well, at least I think this is how I should rank it since I died like 300 times so far). 3 human fighters on the front row, a bishop, a wizard and a cleric on the back row. I understand that this must be far from ideal, so, for a beginner, what would be a "semi-op" party? (mind you, I plan on replaying the game later, so I don't mind if I finish for the first time on "easy mode" just to get along and know more about the genre).
There are no "semi-op" parties in Wiz 1, the system isn't complex enough to be broken. I'd bring a thief. One semi-exploitish thing you can do is leave the Bishop at the tavern and only use him to identify items.
3) Is it normal to die so much in this game? I mean, I had my share of "OMG DARK SOULS IS THE HARDEST THING EVER" with my games, but this seems a bit...unusual. Is not uncommon for me to have 2 or 3 characters dying right on the first floor and having to reset things all over again.
Yep. Level 1 characters are expendable as long as you don't mind the tedium of rolling stats for replacements. You should probably be more conservative with your exploration if you're regularly losing multiple party members.
What is the "norm" about reseting, keep going forward with dead members in this kind of games? I'm asking these because I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and every fucking time a char dies or gets some fucked up status like poison, I feel like reseting (even more if you consider that you have to sell a kidney to resurrect a dead member). So, how to deal with this? SHould I just accept my losses and keep creating a new party member every time one dies or should I just keep resetting?
I say do what makes the game the most fun for you. You could always use save states -- it's not how the game was "meant to be played," but as you've noticed Wizardry can be very unfair.

And why is this in the jRPG subforum?
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
As someone who's only just finished Wiz1 for the first time, compared to other/modern games, there are some mindset changes;

1/ don't keep going until your party is completely drained of resources, half-dead or otherwise fucked. you might walk on a pit, step on a teleporter tile and get cut off from the way back, or just run into more enemies on the way. Sometimes my party would go out to map more of level 6, fight a single battle on the way in level 4 or something, then return to the tavern.

2/ draw your own maps, use dumapic sparingly (since it uses a spell slot), dumapic doesn't really ruin the mapping experience unless you start using it every 5 steps

3/ do what you gotta do to reduce some of the frustration - i used save states sparingly - and give yourself time to find the enjoyment. for me it was about playing easier, lighter experiences like Etrian Odyssey and M&MX before tackling Grimoire and Wiz1.
 

newtmonkey

Arcane
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
1,725
Location
Goblin Lair
The SNES version of Wiz is great, but if you get tired of mapping (i.e. it annoys you enough that you want to just stop playing), you could get the playstation iso a try, which has Wiz 1-3 complete with automapping as an option.

You should definitely consider keeping that bishop in the inn just to identify items, and replace him with a thief. Opening trapped chests is a huge part of the game (it's the only way to get better equipment after a short while) and only the thief can do so reliably (without having to waste spells).
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
How? Dude, however the hell it is you get into the mindset of playing anything you haven't played before. Remember that there is no failure state in a Wizardry type game, there is no game over screen per se, and also there is no "shame" in using save-states if you're emulating (which is almost guaranteed since these are JPN games).

The games are meant to be challenging but only in the sense that there is no hand-holding and everything is up to you, and this provides some of the best experiences you can have in a video game. One of my most memorable mini-adventures was my first time seriously deciding to play one of the classic Scenarios:

- my party had made it to the 2nd level and I got greedy and decided to try disarming a trap on this encounter and poison darts got my entire party poisoned. I considered reloading for a while but I didn't have any recent save backups so I'd have to level up a bit and I'd also gotten some good loot, so I attempted walking back to the entrance with each step lowering my HP, and I had to juggle healing and running from battles while taking poison damage and taking enemy hits every time I failed to flee and my party members kept dying one after the other until at last I reached the stairs back to town with literally only 1 party member surviving who would've died if I'd taken one more poison-step.

EDIT: I mean, stuff like what happens in this video is also another great memory that really defined my experiences with Wizardry games:


I didn't even know about the existence of such a thing as wall-bombs, and I found it quite devilish how they fucking put them inside a darkzone! It's probably my strongest memory of that specific playthrough. The cherry on top was making it back to town and having the resurrection of Dorateen fail, haha.

Also, learning to map the mazes in the classic Scenarios is great fun, and for me it was almost therapeutic, tbh. A great change from the type of gaming experience usually afforded to me by other RPGs.

Honestly I wouldn't know what to say to someone who wants to 'get into Wizardry', especially since back in the day I used to be an extreme story-fag and didn't even think about playing dungeon crawlers. They're fun, challenging games that are simple to understand but endlessly rewarding, mainly because there is zero hand-holding and they provide you the chance to slowly master the games on your own merit.
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
Nice, is good to know that dying and such is part of the experience and I'm not being just plain dumb. To be honest , the crpgs always attracted me but I was too much of a pussy to give them a try. I'll keep trying then, thanks!
Ahem. Pardonne, monsieur. aweigh
Really though, they are challenging games, you ARE going to lose parties. As for the version I prefer DOS, but that's mostly just preference. For the mindset, it's hard to explain. Like I said, just get used to the fact that characters might (will) die, and that sometimes it will seem unfair.
Lastly, as someone who was originally a popamoler, welcome to a new world. Have fun, don't kick the bucket (or your PC) too soon. If you get frustrated, don't hesitate to take a break and play something else for a bit. Llylgamyn will always call its heroes back.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
I always felt that using save states is a non noble way of playing the game. Of course there are exceptions like in some jrpgs where you have a 25 minute cut scene before a boss and die there. In this case, a save state is pretty much mandatory. But anyway, thanks for the bishop heads up, I'll definitely use that.
Yes, you need to draw your own maps. You should use Dumapic.

There are no "semi-op" parties in Wiz 1, the system isn't complex enough to be broken. I'd bring a thief. One semi-exploitish thing you can do is leave the Bishop at the tavern and only use him to identify items.

Yep. Level 1 characters are expendable as long as you don't mind the tedium of rolling stats for replacements. You should probably be more conservative with your exploration if you're regularly losing multiple party members.

I say do what makes the game the most fun for you. You could always use save states -- it's not how the game was "meant to be played," but as you've noticed Wizardry can be very unfair.

And why is this in the jRPG subforum?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
Thanks for the tips. At first I'll try not to use save states but if I see that this is fucking my experience I'll gladly change it. As for playing other things, this is definitely a good idea, maybe I'll play some real time blobber in the mean time just for the sake of doing, maybe eotb or dungeon master.
As someone who's only just finished Wiz1 for the first time, compared to other/modern games, there are some mindset changes;

1/ don't keep going until your party is completely drained of resources, half-dead or otherwise fucked. you might walk on a pit, step on a teleporter tile and get cut off from the way back, or just run into more enemies on the way. Sometimes my party would go out to map more of level 6, fight a single battle on the way in level 4 or something, then return to the tavern.

2/ draw your own maps, use dumapic sparingly (since it uses a spell slot), dumapic doesn't really ruin the mapping experience unless you start using it every 5 steps

3/ do what you gotta do to reduce some of the frustration - i used save states sparingly - and give yourself time to find the enjoyment. for me it was about playing easier, lighter experiences like Etrian Odyssey and M&MX before tackling Grimoire and Wiz1.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
Also I forgot to mention that one thing I'm trying to avoid is coming back to tavern every two minutes to avoid exaggerated boredom. But if that's required to advance I don't see how I'll escape from it.
I always felt that using save states is a non noble way of playing the game. Of course there are exceptions like in some jrpgs where you have a 25 minute cut scene before a boss and die there. In this case, a save state is pretty much mandatory. But anyway, thanks for the bishop heads up, I'll definitely use that.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
I love the fact that there is little to no hand holding because that is what is making me sick of games lately. And the mapping part is therapeutic for me too. In fact, I love the maps in these games so much that sometimes I randomly Google the name of a dungeon crawler just to see the maps and such. I find this amazing. It's a totally different experience that almost no games these days are giving to the player .

I was a story fag at some point in my life but I do regret that deeply. I'm all in for game play now even though I can appreciate some games that have a good bit of story if they offer good game play experiences, like the smt series in general.

How? Dude, however the hell it is you get into the mindset of playing anything you haven't played before. Remember that there is no failure state in a Wizardry type game, there is no game over screen per se, and also there is no "shame" in using save-states if you're emulating (which is almost guaranteed since these are JPN games).

The games are meant to be challenging but only in the sense that there is no hand-holding and everything is up to you, and this provides some of the best experiences you can have in a video game. One of my most memorable mini-adventures was my first time seriously deciding to play one of the classic Scenarios:

- my party had made it to the 2nd level and I got greedy and decided to try disarming a trap on this encounter and poison darts got my entire party poisoned. I considered reloading for a while but I didn't have any recent save backups so I'd have to level up a bit and I'd also gotten some good loot, so I attempted walking back to the entrance with each step lowering my HP, and I had to juggle healing and running from battles while taking poison damage and taking enemy hits every time I failed to flee and my party members kept dying one after the other until at last I reached the stairs back to town with literally only 1 party member surviving who would've died if I'd taken one more poison-step.

EDIT: I mean, stuff like what happens in this video is also another great memory that really defined my experiences with Wizardry games:


I didn't even know about the existence of such a thing as wall-bombs, and I found it quite devilish how they fucking put them inside a darkzone! It's probably my strongest memory of that specific playthrough. The cherry on top was making it back to town and having the resurrection of Dorateen fail, haha.

Also, learning to map the mazes in the classic Scenarios is great fun, and for me it was almost therapeutic, tbh. A great change from the type of gaming experience usually afforded to me by other RPGs.

Honestly I wouldn't know what to say to someone who wants to 'get into Wizardry', especially since back in the day I used to be an extreme story-fag and didn't even think about playing dungeon crawlers. They're fun, challenging games that are simple to understand but endlessly rewarding, mainly because there is zero hand-holding and they provide you the chance to slowly master the games on your own merit.




Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
And I'm really sorry if my posts sound completely retarded. This is the first time I'm using tapa talk and I'm a bit lost with the quoting and such.

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
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Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,013
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
You may want to get rid of the "Sent from my GT-I9195" signature.
You may want to move this away from JRPG Discussion, because keeping it here is offensive.
I always felt that using save states is a non noble way of playing the game.
I see what you mean, but if it's between save states and giving up then the former is preferable, right?
And you can quote multiple posts in one reply, you know. ;)
I love the fact that there is little to no hand holding because that is what is making me sick of games lately. And the mapping part is therapeutic for me too. In fact, I love the maps in these games so much that sometimes I randomly Google the name of a dungeon crawler just to see the maps and such. I find this amazing. It's a totally different experience that almost no games these days are giving to the player .
:bro:
 

JacksonSteve

Novice
Joined
Aug 16, 2018
Messages
11
You may want to get rid of the "Sent from my GT-I9195" signature.
You may want to move this away from JRPG Discussion, because keeping it here is offensive.
I always felt that using save states is a non noble way of playing the game.
I see what you mean, but if it's between save states and giving up then the former is preferable, right?
And you can quote multiple posts in one reply, you know. ;)
I love the fact that there is little to no hand holding because that is what is making me sick of games lately. And the mapping part is therapeutic for me too. In fact, I love the maps in these games so much that sometimes I randomly Google the name of a dungeon crawler just to see the maps and such. I find this amazing. It's a totally different experience that almost no games these days are giving to the player .
:bro:

I just gave up on tapatalk and will use Chrome, is mugh easier this way. Thanks for asking to move, I didn't knew where to create the thread since there were posts on wizardry in both forums.
 

L'Montes

Educated
Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
160
2) I created a very retarded party (well, at least I think this is how I should rank it since I died like 300 times so far). 3 human fighters on the front row, a bishop, a wizard and a cleric on the back row. I understand that this must be far from ideal, so, for a beginner, what would be a "semi-op" party? (mind you, I plan on replaying the game later, so I don't mind if I finish for the first time on "easy mode" just to get along and know more about the genre).

3) Is it normal to die so much in this game? I mean, I had my share of "OMG DARK SOULS IS THE HARDEST THING EVER" with my games, but this seems a bit...unusual. Is not uncommon for me to have 2 or 3 characters dying right on the first floor and having to reset things all over again. Which leads me to my final question (so far)..

The games aren't very explicit about this (and what Strange Fellow said is technically true, parties aren't generally OP in Wizardry), but there's a long tradition of spending a long time "rolling" for a good bonus in Wizardry. Your character's stats will go up when you level (and they can also go down, amusingly enough), but a interesting feature of the games more generally (and many of their JPN clones) is the small chance of getting a "large" number of bonus points.

Think of it like an olden-day equivalent of spending your hard earned money on a loot crate for a "chance" at something good, except in this case you're spending time instead of money directly - and EA isn't greasing their palms in the process.

An average bonus roll looks something like, 7-10 points. A "good" bonus roll might be somewhere in the 16-21 range. The roll calculates a smaller percentage chance of adding another 10-20 points on any given roll, though trying to roll to get the absolute max bonus is a bit... tedious. Getting a nice fat 18-20 point bonus for each member of a full party is nice though. You can use it to level up core stats for their roll, and/or fit the requirements of a "prestige" type class (e.g. - start the game with a Lord/Ninja/Samurai). Having beefier Vitality and Strength on a Fighter gives you stronger hits, and more hp per level. That sort of thing, really. Hitting the minimum thresholds to start with something like a Samurai and then putting the excess into combat stats isn't a bad move either. You'll need to look up the stat reqs for Sam/Lord/Ninja if you haven't, and you can note that some races will have an easier time than others reaching the bar with a given bonus (just as Elves hit Bishop the easiest, iirc).

Note that there are alignment restrictions on parties, so, generally speaking, Ninjas and Lords can't be in the same party (Evil + Good = no go). Depending on the version of Wizardry you're playing you may or may not be able to get around that in a few different ways. As a practical matter, you can pick a party of Neutral + Evil or Neutral + Good, and that'll work fine. If you want to promote to Ninja, you need Evil, if you want to promote to Lord, you need Good.

My OG party was Lord/Samurai/Fighter/Thief/Priest/Mage, but there's a large personal taste element to parties. Different people enjoy different approaches to the game. I think a healer (Priest) is basically mandatory, and a thief to handle chests is also nice.

As for some other random advice, heal up your party with the priest before resting at the inn (this means go back before you're out of spells). Paying/staying with a bunch of wounded party members will age your party quicker over time (and you're expected to go back to town relatively often). "Old" characters will start to lose stat point more frequently. Changing classes also gives a bump to your age iirc (7 years?), which is part of why I like to start in them if possible in the original Wizardry.

In the olden days, before cheating and such was a foregone conclusion, you'd also create a set of mooks, "pool" their gold to another unit, then delete them. You could use that to get early spending money risk-free, and buy some basic gear for your squad. That's hardly hacking, but not exactly an honorable tactic either.
 
Last edited:

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,365
Pathfinder: Wrath
Try to get off seeing increasing number in Microsoft Excel, it helps a lot

Then try to get off when making map of your neighborhood.
 

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