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How can anyone (dis)like Dungeon Siege 3?

WaltC333

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How good and focused a game's pacing is is far more important than simply hitting a set goal of "X number of hours long".

"X number of hours to complete" generally provides a prospective customer with a rough idea of game content depth and variety. For instance, I will never, ever spend ~$30+ on an rpg that people have completed in 5-10 hours. Ever. If I want something short and mainly passive I'll fire up a movie...;) (First-run DVDs are ~$15 on release day.) Granted, there is that idiot (speaking freely of course) player every now and then who spends $50 on an rpg and then cheats and avoids every side quest and parenthetical foray simply to see "how fast I can beat this game." The poor fellow is to be pitied because in the end he simply cheats himself out of much content and presumably a far more enjoyable experience--and he fails to get his money's worth even though it is his game! Why people do this is beyond me. "How fast" a person finishes a quality rpg mostly indicates a substandard-quality player, imo. It does not indicate an achievement of some kind.

The second problem here is that the very question itself is phrased as an either-or situation, and as such is a loaded question, like either a game has to be briskly paced and short or else it drags and is long. Wrong. A great rpg can be paced to send the adrenalin surging and still be 60-100 hours long. A 10-hour rpg can be briskly paced and put you to sleep...;) A great rpg by any measure constantly entertains even while providing dozens of hours of quality game play, imo. Such games continuously surprise and delight their players.

Game developers do not, to my mind, ever set out to create a game that is "X hours long".....Heh...;) The notion is laughable. What they do is to create the best game they can which may happen to be 60-100 hours long when they are done! Even the concept that games are created with game length as a primary goal is most likely never true--but if it ever *is true* then whether the developer wants a shorter game or a longer game as the primary design metric then the game will most likely stink when it's done...;)

Good case in point for me: I bought the original Dungeon Siege when it shipped from GPG. I loved the game, and yes, it was indeed a looooooong game. But that turned out to be one of the things I liked about it. Then the expansion "legends of Arrana" (or something like that) shipped which made all of it even longer! Great stuff--very entertaining at the time, I thought. Next thing I know, however, GPG is making public statements to the effect that "We hear you! You told us you wanted multiplayer and shorter games and we hear you!" Problem is--GPG never heard it from me! Then Dungeon Siege II shipped, and quite unlike DS1, the single-player was shortened and dumbed way down and was, I thought, bitterly disappointing as a sequel. I still play DS1/LoA to this day under Win8.1x64--got rid of my DSII copy years and years ago. GPG's "shorter-by-design" philosophy killed the series, and ultimately, I really believe, killed off GPG entirely. DSII is what happens when your primary design goal is to take everything great about the first game and chop it up and out just to make it "shorter". Deliberately chopping a game down saves money for the developer because there's simply not as much to develop--but that doesn't help if the result produces a game that few of your customers like.
 
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theSavant

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For instance, I will never, ever spend ~$30+ on an rpg that people have completed in 5-10 hours. Ever. If I want something short and mainly passive I'll fire up a movie...;) (First-run DVDs are ~$15 on release day.)

Yes, but a DVD has 0 replay value in comparison to many games, e.g. I have spent countless hours on Age of Empires I - even though every skirmish was "finished" after approximately 2 hours. It was just awesome to replay again and again with different maps, different tribes, different tactics. I could imagine, that if an RPG came out which lasts - say 5 hours and have the same replayability value - I'd gladly pay +30$.
 

Infinitron

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Good case in point for me: I bought the original Dungeon Siege when it shipped from GPG. I loved the game, and yes, it was indeed a looooooong game. But that turned out to be one of the things I liked about it. Then the expansion "legends of Arrana" (or something like that) shipped which made all of it even longer! Great stuff--very entertaining at the time, I thought. Next thing I know, however, GPG is making public statements to the effect that "We hear you! You told us you wanted multiplayer and shorter games and we hear you!" Problem is--GPG never heard it from me! Then Dungeon Siege II shipped, and quite unlike DS1, the single-player was shortened and dumbed way down and was, I thought, bitterly disappointing as a sequel. I still play DS1/LoA to this day under Win8.1x64--got rid of my DSII copy years and years ago. GPG's "shorter-by-design" philosophy killed the series, and ultimately, I really believe, killed off GPG entirely. DSII is what happens when your primary design goal is to take everything great about the first game and chop it up and out just to make it "shorter". Deliberately chopping a game down saves money for the developer because there's simply not as much to develop--but that doesn't help if the result produces a game that few of your customers like.

:what:

Dungeon Siege 1 fans...they're out there.
 

SuicideBunny

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Dungeon Siege 1 fans...they're out there.
ds1 had the best multiplayer ever. you could just klick assist and then go play some proper rpg while leaving it running in the background so your ds groupie friend would stop fucking bothering you to play with him.
 

Luzur

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Good case in point for me: I bought the original Dungeon Siege when it shipped from GPG. I loved the game, and yes, it was indeed a looooooong game. But that turned out to be one of the things I liked about it. Then the expansion "legends of Arrana" (or something like that) shipped which made all of it even longer! Great stuff--very entertaining at the time, I thought. Next thing I know, however, GPG is making public statements to the effect that "We hear you! You told us you wanted multiplayer and shorter games and we hear you!" Problem is--GPG never heard it from me! Then Dungeon Siege II shipped, and quite unlike DS1, the single-player was shortened and dumbed way down and was, I thought, bitterly disappointing as a sequel. I still play DS1/LoA to this day under Win8.1x64--got rid of my DSII copy years and years ago. GPG's "shorter-by-design" philosophy killed the series, and ultimately, I really believe, killed off GPG entirely. DSII is what happens when your primary design goal is to take everything great about the first game and chop it up and out just to make it "shorter". Deliberately chopping a game down saves money for the developer because there's simply not as much to develop--but that doesn't help if the result produces a game that few of your customers like.

:what:

Dungeon Siege 1 fans...they're out there.

by the time i hit those mechanical goblins with flamethrowers i was already at the "i kill this boss and its uninstall time"
 

SuicideBunny

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What the fuck is wring with you people? How can anyone like DS3?
the combat system was pretty friggin awesome (if you disregarded balancing of chars against each other) and it was really fun in coop, plus it had c&c and was pwetty.
the maps being pretty linear would normally be a huge fuck no for me, but thanks to how retarded the camera worked for coop they were actually an advantage. played it through in two bigass session with a bro on his xbox. wouldn't mind obsidian doing a sequel or similar game if it had less linear maps, more balanced chars and less retarded camera.
 

SuicideBunny

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What specifically was wrong with it?
godawful multiplayer camera which was designed for same screen coop and didn't allow you to move further away than to opposite edges of the screen, which was totally retarded on pc. horrible class balance at release where the ranged char could kill everything easily and the others failed miserably (especially the melee dood). on screen area was kinda small especially since enemies became active outside of it and you had no way to see them since you couldn't move camera and the camera's focus was always in the middle between the two players. supposedly the pc controls were fucking retarded at release. last but not least corridor maps, although not quite as bad as skyrim/oblivion dungeons.
 

Zeriel

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I liked DS3.

My favorite games of all time are all basically DOS games, and I'm as tryhard a grognard as they get, so... not sure what's going on there.

Maybe expectations? DS1 & 2 were horrifying travesties in my opinion, so when DS3 ended up being a semi-serviceable Diablo clone with decent visuals and vaguely Infinity-Engine-esque dialogue, I was pleasantly surprised. The series went from "complete waste of hard disk space" to "inoffensive way to waste a weekend", which is a slight uptick.

I never did play the multiplayer, though.
 

Roguey

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What an odd derail for a M&M thread.

horrible class balance at release where the ranged char could kill everything easily and the others failed miserably (especially the melee dood).
:lol:
Lucas and Anjali are the most balanced characters and work just fine if you play to your build's strengths. Katarina and Reinhart can be built to be OP because they were added later in development (so not as polished) and designed to be higher-learning-curve-higher-reward characters.
 

SuicideBunny

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:lol:
Lucas and Anjali are the most balanced characters and work just fine if you play to your build's strengths. Katarina and Reinhart can be built to be OP because they were added later in development (so not as polished) and designed to be higher-learning-curve-higher-reward characters.
dunno about reinhart but before any patches katarina p. much destroyed everything on and offscreen with heartseeking shot/chosen prey/flintlock fury and crit specs. not exactly what i'd call a higher learning curve...
 

Roguey

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dunno about reinhart but before any patches katarina p. much destroyed everything on and offscreen with heartseeking shot/chosen prey/flintlock fury and crit specs. not exactly what i'd call a higher learning curve...
There were no balance patches, aside from the one that comes with the DLC that makes everything harder to compensate for the new enchanting system. Chapman said when it was all said and done, balance was the least of his priorities.

Katarina's class role is to be a glass cannon. You can spec other characters to be glass cannons as well, but they won't be as cannon-y as the character intended for that role. Playing her well requires using several different abilities all the time, frequent style switching, and not getting hit.
 

SuicideBunny

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Katarina's class role is to be a glass cannon. You can spec other characters to be glass cannons as well, but they won't be as cannon-y as the character intended for that role. Playing her well requires using several different abilities all the time, frequent style switching, and not getting hit.
i only played lucas and katarina and she was much more of a glass cannon while he was just glass despite supposedly being tanky. that or maybe i just suck at playing melee.
 

Minttunator

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Oddly enough I really enjoyed DS2 back in the day. I'm afraid I couldn't bear DS3 (the demo) for more than an hour or two.
 

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