- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Messages
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How is this possible when DOTA is way more complex than LoL?
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Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter Syril
- Start date
SerratedBiz
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 4,143
HoTS is just as complex as DOTA except for the fact that it took off all the complexity from it and just lets you concentrate on THE RIGHT CLIX.
'Muh complexity, 'Muh last hitting.
Much complex, such depth, wow.
It is banal boring shit. Best removed, which it luckily was, in favor of more fun gameplay. Unnecessary bullshit "complex" filler "gameplay" isn't good, it's just boring and unwanted.
You are under the impression that items, solo xp and last hitting create good complex and interesting gameplay. It doesn't. It actually detracts from the entire ordeal.
Have fun with your 50 minute long shit games, tho.
Fart Master
Savant
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2012
- Messages
- 241
Actually last hitting, gold and items lead to such fun 'minor' things like:
- Map control actually mattering. If your enemies are afraid to enter parts of the map to farm you'll eventually get an advantage in gold and items (please tell me about your super duper interesting ''fight here every 6 minutes because you're too fucking stupid to understand whats valuable if it isn't a flashing point in your minimap'' objective based gameplay. Theres zero way to control the map in Heroes of the shit because not even the strongest gankers can kill the weakest hero on the enemy team LOL)
- Using teamwork and superior map control to deny enemy heroes that require a specific core item(s) to hit their power spikes, denying/negating their effectiveness. On the opposite side getting your core item quickly makes you the king of the map until the enemy can counter you (uhhh you can pick your 'talents' in HoTS its the exact same thing!! you can stun for 0.35 sec or do 50 dmg! vs an item that makes you 2 shot weak enemy heroes until they can buy defensive items, forcing them to stick together with stronger heroes for protection creating even more ~map control~ and restricting their freedom to do what they want around the map)
- Your skill ~actually matters~ because you don't have the 'everybody wins!'-rubberband pulling you back to the level of the mouthbreathers who can't understand gameplay more complicated than ''fight at the flashing chest of treasure every 6 minutes''
yeah, its just 'last hitting'
Enjoy your casual hugbox
- Map control actually mattering. If your enemies are afraid to enter parts of the map to farm you'll eventually get an advantage in gold and items (please tell me about your super duper interesting ''fight here every 6 minutes because you're too fucking stupid to understand whats valuable if it isn't a flashing point in your minimap'' objective based gameplay. Theres zero way to control the map in Heroes of the shit because not even the strongest gankers can kill the weakest hero on the enemy team LOL)
- Using teamwork and superior map control to deny enemy heroes that require a specific core item(s) to hit their power spikes, denying/negating their effectiveness. On the opposite side getting your core item quickly makes you the king of the map until the enemy can counter you (uhhh you can pick your 'talents' in HoTS its the exact same thing!! you can stun for 0.35 sec or do 50 dmg! vs an item that makes you 2 shot weak enemy heroes until they can buy defensive items, forcing them to stick together with stronger heroes for protection creating even more ~map control~ and restricting their freedom to do what they want around the map)
- Your skill ~actually matters~ because you don't have the 'everybody wins!'-rubberband pulling you back to the level of the mouthbreathers who can't understand gameplay more complicated than ''fight at the flashing chest of treasure every 6 minutes''
yeah, its just 'last hitting'
Enjoy your casual hugboxActually last hitting, gold and items lead to such fun 'minor' things like:
- Map control actually mattering. If your enemies are afraid to enter parts of the map to farm you'll eventually get an advantage in gold and items (please tell me about your super duper interesting ''fight here every 6 minutes because you're too fucking stupid to understand whats valuable if it isn't a flashing point in your minimap'' objective based gameplay. Theres zero way to control the map in Heroes of the shit because not even the strongest gankers can kill the weakest hero on the enemy team LOL)
- Using teamwork and superior map control to deny enemy heroes that require a specific core item(s) to hit their power spikes, denying/negating their effectiveness. On the opposite side getting your core item quickly makes you the king of the map until the enemy can counter you (uhhh you can pick your 'talents' in HoTS its the exact same thing!! you can stun for 0.35 sec or do 50 dmg! vs an item that makes you 2 shot weak enemy heroes until they can buy defensive items, forcing them to stick together with stronger heroes for protection creating even more ~map control~ and restricting their freedom to do what they want around the map)
- Your skill ~actually matters~ because you don't have the 'everybody wins!'-rubberband pulling you back to the level of the mouthbreathers who can't understand gameplay more complicated than ''fight at the flashing chest of treasure every 6 minutes''
yeah, its just 'last hitting'
Lel.
There is great map control in HOTS. A lot in fact. All the main map objectives vary in style, so the control of points is different for each map. Usually more than 1 "control" spot and multiple lane-control fights are going on at the same time, requiring great coordination to succeed.
You have several different neutral camps, that each can be controlled and "capped", which are very important to the game throughout. Sometimes going for neutral camps are a better decision than taking the main objective of the map, sometimes you can split push with it, sometimes you can delay the main objective, while other people take camps, are farms xp in the lanes.
So you got, xp farm, you got neutral capping and control and you got interesting main map objective mechanics each different on each map. Lel, sounds a lot more complex than simply just "I haz lot of goo0ld and itamzz.. im so gud lel"... enjoy your shit dota and league of shit. gg no re.
Skill matters alot. The better team will always win vs the worse one. So I'm not sure what you are on about. Talents and the skill kit actually create alot more complex choices and interesting fun combos, than simply just buying some retarded items that give you +20 to poweah or some other stupid shit. There is several good builds for each hero, instead of just 1 cookie cutter build like dota + lol.
But yeah, HOTS isn't a MOBA where 14 year old kids can get off with their e-peen, because they are so GUD AND speciuelz, and can farm the entire game for 70 minutes, and then kill everything, because I'M SO STRONK AND COOL, LOL NUBS!.. because they can 1 shot the entire team with some bullshit items and unbalanced heroes. HOTS is much more team-oriented, instead of ego-centrical solo plastyles.
Lastly, there are several heroes that can kill other "weak" hero types in a short amount of time. Especially if you are ahead in level xp, which is the entire point. You deny the enemy team xp advantage, you deny them objectives, you deny them neutral camps, you deny them the chance to win, at every turn, in small fights or in bigger ones.
Map control and map design:
I understand Blizzard's intention of differentiating HotS through a team oriented MOBA with their takedown system, instead of the traditional kill/assist system in other prevalent MOBAs, as well as reducing the barrier of entry to casual players with simplification of game mechanics (no items, no last hitting/denying, no summoner spells/runes/masteries) which in turn emphasizes the team fighting aspect. On the other hand, depth is compensated through the strategic choice of 2 heroic abilities and multiple talents which is a nice touch. The shared team experience pool would also arguably reduce the effect of a single player snowballing and ultimately, the whole experience indirectly aims to reduce a toxic player community by eliminating "feeders", "kill-stealers", "afk farmers" and generally self-centric 14 year old players.
HotS is a beautifully designed MOBA. Compared to LoL and Dota, it also has some of the best map designs in terms of variety, interaction with neutral monster camps (and the map-unique advantages they provide), and promotion of team play through such said objective control.
The overall feel is that map objective control, pushing speed and the last 5 minutes of decisive team fighting reigns supreme in HotS.
An experienced Dota 2 player can make all the difference in the world and sometimes win a game almost single-handedly. Not in Heroes of the Storm though. In Blizzard’s game you can’t afford the luxury of relying on your overfed carry to win the game for you while you’re wandering around placing wards and upgrading your fancy courier. Blizzard went for equality when they decided that the whole team should gain experience and level up at exactly the same time. Basically, everyone benefits from the experience gained by everyone else in this game and it seems to work great. You won’t feel the Dota 2 badassery of having a six slotted Faceless Void tearing up noobs left and right, but Heroes of the Storm compensates by allowing you to feel equal to your team mates at all times even when their skill is clearly superior to your own.
As the game progresses, a typical observation is that the difference in the team levels do not differ by more than 2 even with a difference of 20+ team kills. 2 levels is a huge difference in League. It's very rare to win a duel, and even rarer a teamfight, against enemies 2 levels above you, unless they're already quite low or you get a godlike perfect initiate. It's even larger in HotS, where level up stats are increased to compensate for the lack of items, and for *most of the game* the team with a 2 level advantage will be up a talent tier over their opponents (probably the equivalent of 5k+ gold lead in League).
Playing supportive heroes/characters:
Playing support feels much more rewarding and awesome in HOTS. Although supports, in particular, may be drawn away by the prospect of a game where they aren't *always* on the wrong end of the snowballing, being 2+ levels behind - even when their team is winning - and short on gold on top of that. The idea that someone can get hyper fed and carry a game is a lot less appealing, when you know in advance with 100% certainty that it won't be you, no matter how well you play.
Who will non-traditional MOBA gameplay design appeal to? Isn't it rather soon to say?
I think it would be a mistake to assume HotS lacks complexity or returns to personal skill, although it doesn't have the same kind of ego trips as a 15 kill Katarina (or whoever) walking into teams and blowing them all up with one button. Actually, I think not having that may *increase* the personal skill requirement: you have to *keep playing well* because you can't rely as much on your already-accumulated lead to win fights for you even if you get sloppy. The ability to come back is the flip side of the ability to blow a lead, which comes with the responsibility to *not* blow your lead -- by continuing to outplay *and* work with your team.
Snowballing:
Weaker snowballing means the late game always matters, it's never just 10+ minutes of watching the inevitable unfold. This makes it look like the early game matters less, and I suppose that's technically true, because the game can't be outright decided before people even get their ults, but that doesn't mean the early game doesn't matter *at all*. The early game gives someone (or rather, some five) an advantage, which they can either keep or give up depending on how they play in the mid to late game.
Especially getting to level 10 before the enemy team, is paramount to getting an early lead. Alot of contesting goes on, to ensure that.
Easy to learn, hard to master
Regarding the lacking of "complexity" and "depth": People said the same kind of thing about Hearthstone, when it was in beta... "It's too simple/dumbed-down, it will never develop a dedicated community!!". And look where hearthstone is now. Easy to learn and get into, does NOT mean void of strategic depth and complexity. Yeah it's not MTG, and it doesn't need to be.
Speaking of simple gameplay. What about chess? Chess is fucking simple to learn, but I bet you 1000 dollars, that you couldn't even win a game against even a mediocre chess player. There a NUMEROUS examples of "simpler" and "easy-to-learn" games, that require alot of thinking and planning to excel and succeed at. Adding complexity just for the sake of complexity is fucking retarded. And that's what games like dota and league have been doing for ages. Why?
Blizzard is definitely smarter than me, or you, or any single person for that matter. I have great respect for the high quality games Blizzard consistently produces ever since I bought their first games like Starcraft/Warcraft 1,2 and lost vikings etc.
The most important thing is to enjoy a well made game and have fun!
I understand Blizzard's intention of differentiating HotS through a team oriented MOBA with their takedown system, instead of the traditional kill/assist system in other prevalent MOBAs, as well as reducing the barrier of entry to casual players with simplification of game mechanics (no items, no last hitting/denying, no summoner spells/runes/masteries) which in turn emphasizes the team fighting aspect. On the other hand, depth is compensated through the strategic choice of 2 heroic abilities and multiple talents which is a nice touch. The shared team experience pool would also arguably reduce the effect of a single player snowballing and ultimately, the whole experience indirectly aims to reduce a toxic player community by eliminating "feeders", "kill-stealers", "afk farmers" and generally self-centric 14 year old players.
HotS is a beautifully designed MOBA. Compared to LoL and Dota, it also has some of the best map designs in terms of variety, interaction with neutral monster camps (and the map-unique advantages they provide), and promotion of team play through such said objective control.
The overall feel is that map objective control, pushing speed and the last 5 minutes of decisive team fighting reigns supreme in HotS.
An experienced Dota 2 player can make all the difference in the world and sometimes win a game almost single-handedly. Not in Heroes of the Storm though. In Blizzard’s game you can’t afford the luxury of relying on your overfed carry to win the game for you while you’re wandering around placing wards and upgrading your fancy courier. Blizzard went for equality when they decided that the whole team should gain experience and level up at exactly the same time. Basically, everyone benefits from the experience gained by everyone else in this game and it seems to work great. You won’t feel the Dota 2 badassery of having a six slotted Faceless Void tearing up noobs left and right, but Heroes of the Storm compensates by allowing you to feel equal to your team mates at all times even when their skill is clearly superior to your own.
As the game progresses, a typical observation is that the difference in the team levels do not differ by more than 2 even with a difference of 20+ team kills. 2 levels is a huge difference in League. It's very rare to win a duel, and even rarer a teamfight, against enemies 2 levels above you, unless they're already quite low or you get a godlike perfect initiate. It's even larger in HotS, where level up stats are increased to compensate for the lack of items, and for *most of the game* the team with a 2 level advantage will be up a talent tier over their opponents (probably the equivalent of 5k+ gold lead in League).
Playing supportive heroes/characters:
Playing support feels much more rewarding and awesome in HOTS. Although supports, in particular, may be drawn away by the prospect of a game where they aren't *always* on the wrong end of the snowballing, being 2+ levels behind - even when their team is winning - and short on gold on top of that. The idea that someone can get hyper fed and carry a game is a lot less appealing, when you know in advance with 100% certainty that it won't be you, no matter how well you play.
Who will non-traditional MOBA gameplay design appeal to? Isn't it rather soon to say?
I think it would be a mistake to assume HotS lacks complexity or returns to personal skill, although it doesn't have the same kind of ego trips as a 15 kill Katarina (or whoever) walking into teams and blowing them all up with one button. Actually, I think not having that may *increase* the personal skill requirement: you have to *keep playing well* because you can't rely as much on your already-accumulated lead to win fights for you even if you get sloppy. The ability to come back is the flip side of the ability to blow a lead, which comes with the responsibility to *not* blow your lead -- by continuing to outplay *and* work with your team.
Snowballing:
Weaker snowballing means the late game always matters, it's never just 10+ minutes of watching the inevitable unfold. This makes it look like the early game matters less, and I suppose that's technically true, because the game can't be outright decided before people even get their ults, but that doesn't mean the early game doesn't matter *at all*. The early game gives someone (or rather, some five) an advantage, which they can either keep or give up depending on how they play in the mid to late game.
Especially getting to level 10 before the enemy team, is paramount to getting an early lead. Alot of contesting goes on, to ensure that.
Easy to learn, hard to master
Regarding the lacking of "complexity" and "depth": People said the same kind of thing about Hearthstone, when it was in beta... "It's too simple/dumbed-down, it will never develop a dedicated community!!". And look where hearthstone is now. Easy to learn and get into, does NOT mean void of strategic depth and complexity. Yeah it's not MTG, and it doesn't need to be.
Speaking of simple gameplay. What about chess? Chess is fucking simple to learn, but I bet you 1000 dollars, that you couldn't even win a game against even a mediocre chess player. There a NUMEROUS examples of "simpler" and "easy-to-learn" games, that require alot of thinking and planning to excel and succeed at. Adding complexity just for the sake of complexity is fucking retarded. And that's what games like dota and league have been doing for ages. Why?
Blizzard is definitely smarter than me, or you, or any single person for that matter. I have great respect for the high quality games Blizzard consistently produces ever since I bought their first games like Starcraft/Warcraft 1,2 and lost vikings etc.
The most important thing is to enjoy a well made game and have fun!
Last edited by a moderator:
you know what time it is
Arcane
Give it a rest already, HotS is a retard friendly version of Arena maps in WC3, lanes aside it has nothing to do with dota. Comparing it to chess is just 
Give it a rest already, HotS is a retard friendly version of Arena maps in WC3, lanes aside it has nothing to do with dota. Comparing it to chess is just
Location:Siberia
Hobo Elf
Arcane
All MOBAs are equally gay. Stop pretending otherwise.
Your face is gay.
Hobo Elf
Arcane
A MOBA (and even worse, a Blizzard) cuck lashing out in anger and hostility. Who on earth could've guessed?
A MOBA cuck? What's that even mean? Do you know?
I know for a fact, that you're a huge fucking faggot tho. Stay clear of this thread my boy, you're way over your head.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hobo Elf
Arcane
Those blue balls look mighty uncomfortable. Are they the reason why you are acting like an emotionally compromised twink? Or does that come naturally to MOBA cucks?
You need to seek professional help, boy.
So I've decided to give Heroes a bash and I've been playing for a while for the last 3 days. So far I'm having fun, but it's definitely not a competitor to DotA or LoL. Compared to those two games Heroes are extremely simplified and casual, but they're not pretending to be something other than "baby's first dota-like", so you can't really hold that against it.
Overall, if you're looking for a game to sperg on for hours all day, e'rry day you're gonna get bored pretty quickly, but if you're looking for a game to play with your girlfriend for a bit every few days, then both of you should have a reasonable good time while at it.
Progression is quite grindy and business model is the same as in LoL (you can pay for skins and hero unlocks) and just like in LoL you have set of free heroes to play with every week.
Unlike DotA or LoL, you have more maps to play on with different objectives on them, but they're all based on the same principle: fulfilling objectives simply speed up the process of destroying enemy's base defenses - they all feel similar to each other.
In conclusion, it's not a game I'd spend money on, but as a free to play time waster it's solid enough.
Overall, if you're looking for a game to sperg on for hours all day, e'rry day you're gonna get bored pretty quickly, but if you're looking for a game to play with your girlfriend for a bit every few days, then both of you should have a reasonable good time while at it.
Progression is quite grindy and business model is the same as in LoL (you can pay for skins and hero unlocks) and just like in LoL you have set of free heroes to play with every week.
Unlike DotA or LoL, you have more maps to play on with different objectives on them, but they're all based on the same principle: fulfilling objectives simply speed up the process of destroying enemy's base defenses - they all feel similar to each other.
In conclusion, it's not a game I'd spend money on, but as a free to play time waster it's solid enough.
Hobo Elf
Arcane
You should find a man to help you with your crippling condition.
I will fuck your ass.
Hobo Elf
Arcane
With what?
A firepoker.
Wild Slop
Arcane
I wouldn't argue against this style of game not being gay but I do play it and sometimes even have fun.
I got roped into trying League of Legends (for about week max) some years back and the only thing worse than the shitty game was the community.
The community in Heroes gets pretty teen-raged at times too. I even had a game on last week where a guy was asking how to report a team member of ours for not playing skillfully enough, this was something I understood was in League so I told him something like 'this isn't League, back up the team as best as you can, that all we can do.' 'Can't win em all sometimes the other guys are just better' He then gloated about how he was now going to report me as well. Hah, an official report to the authorities!
This rage exist when teams are evenly matched too. As in not having clear and commanding lead = no sure thing = failure = my dick is small = MY DICK IS NOT SMALL!! RAAAAGE! People pounding angry shit into keyboard instead of playing. Of course having a pool of players that you can call on for teaming helps avoid the rage puggles.
MOBAs are tedious popamole games, hell I'd say playing a overly repetitive , popamole shooter like Battlefield 2 is 100 times better but that's neither here nor there.
I'm not reading over all this thread but I skimmed a bit of the positives of what you (Brenner) liked about the game and I agree. Team work aspect can be nice, I like not having the bullshit item catalog to asp over.
TLDR - a gay and tedious team play game with a large amount of squealing assholes, yet despite these facts can be fun way to waste time.
I got roped into trying League of Legends (for about week max) some years back and the only thing worse than the shitty game was the community.
The community in Heroes gets pretty teen-raged at times too. I even had a game on last week where a guy was asking how to report a team member of ours for not playing skillfully enough, this was something I understood was in League so I told him something like 'this isn't League, back up the team as best as you can, that all we can do.' 'Can't win em all sometimes the other guys are just better' He then gloated about how he was now going to report me as well. Hah, an official report to the authorities!
This rage exist when teams are evenly matched too. As in not having clear and commanding lead = no sure thing = failure = my dick is small = MY DICK IS NOT SMALL!! RAAAAGE! People pounding angry shit into keyboard instead of playing. Of course having a pool of players that you can call on for teaming helps avoid the rage puggles.
MOBAs are tedious popamole games, hell I'd say playing a overly repetitive , popamole shooter like Battlefield 2 is 100 times better but that's neither here nor there.
I'm not reading over all this thread but I skimmed a bit of the positives of what you (Brenner) liked about the game and I agree. Team work aspect can be nice, I like not having the bullshit item catalog to asp over.
TLDR - a gay and tedious team play game with a large amount of squealing assholes, yet despite these facts can be fun way to waste time.
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