KickStarter Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption - adventure-RPG from the creators of Quest for Glory

[cruelio]

I got the entire Quest for Glory series (which remain some of the best RPGS of all time) from a friend copying them floppies so I'm okay with kicking the coles a little cash even if nothing ever comes from it.

 

[Name]

At this point, we are not funding any game, we are saving livelihoods!

 

[Blackthorne]

If you've played my games, you know I'm a QFG fan. No secret there... this poor game... the development has been challenging, to say the least. Making a good game doesn't require just a great idea - it requires tenacity and good workers. Focus can often be in short supply in game development, and sticking to your plan often goes out the window. I just hope this game comes out and turns out all right. There's some good people working on the game now - Josh Mandel really is one hell of a talented and creative guy. Just talking with him for a few minutes, you'll get 80 ideas and influences thrown at you.

At this point, I'd like to see the game wrapped up and I hope it's fun to play. The old school guys could use a win at this point, at least from Sierra peeps.


Bt

 

[Mustawd]

Focus can often be in short supply in game development, and sticking to your plan often goes out the window.

To me it sounds like less a lack of focus and more a lack of project management and proper budgeting. The codex loves to denigrate corporate "suits" and non-dev/non-creative-type management, but the reality is that important roles like these are sometimes needed to help set realistic expectations and follow structured timelines.

EDIT: Plus, the Coles' time away from the industry is pretty obvious with some of their missteps. You can't just shake off decades of collective rust on the fly.

 

[Blackthorne]

Well, I include project management and budgeting in the 'focus' part of my statement. Focus isn't just a creative tool - it's a management tool as well. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions, and it stinks and you can't do everything you want, but you have to manage your project and say "This is it." in order to finish and ship a product.


Bt

 

[Boleskine]

Long but interesting exchange between Corey and a backer asking for a refund.

Spoiler

Well, i tried to get a refund. You can see the transcript below. What ticked me off in the first place was the comparison of someone who supported a Hero-U with 21$ with someone who can spend 10K.
The second thing was the calculation of $40 back in 1995 compared to 21$ today. I get it. Corey thinks $21 are ridiculous and still calculates like its the 90's (like he kinda did with the project in the first place).
But i think the worst part was - "I'm not sure which artist or programmer you want me to take money away from so we can refund it to you.". No i don't want that you take it away from people who work for you Corey! You own the business, act like it. And if you ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer.
There is this argument that a contribution on kickstarter is just a donation, not tied to a product. I haven't followed this project a lot since i didn't play any of their games back in the days and the artwork/concept was terrible from the beginning, but i followed the Sierra trail. Corey had posted before that he sees kickstarter like a donation to church or charity. No it's not! The tier i backed said "You will receive a DRM-free digital game download, access to discussion forums to help us improve the game, and your name will appear on the Hero list.
Estimated Delivery: Oct 2013". Thats not a donation. Thats selling a product. I never saw Kickstarter as a site for donations (they don't even allow charities afaik). This is a topic that has been argued on KS a lot, and if you promise a specific item in return for the contribution... well, you know what i mean.

As i said, i didn't follow this project a lot, but i played back the whole thing over the last days... Its a disaster that stems from bad management. If they can keep their current goal and deliver it in November, they should be around 150k in debt.

I'm actually back in employment and was able to get into a far better position from where i left off. But i still hold them by their word. First delivery date - no game. Every backup date - no game. 2nd kickstarter delivery date - no game, no alpha, nada. Now its somewhere november or whatever. I hope it will kick ass, cause the backlash on steam will be harsh.

Pedasn:
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28. Jan., 2016

Hi!

I want to ask for a refund. Because of unemployment and a resulting tight budget, i had to reevaluate all my open kickstarter-projects. Its 3 1/2 since i backed Hero-U and i think its fair to back out of the project.
I hope you get this game out and i wish all of your best luck. Take care!

Please send the refund via paypal using my e-mail adress

*not shown here*

With best regards
Peter

-

Corey Cole:
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30. Jan., 2016

I’m sorry, but we have a no-refund policy at this stage. Your $21 contribution has long since gone into the making of the game, on which Lori and I are now personally in debt for well over $50,000 (not including an additional 2 years of lost income). We have backers at the $10,000 level who are still patiently waiting for the game. As for Lori and I, we continue to spend about $10K a month on development and won’t stop until after we release the game.

Corey

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Pedasn:
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30. Jan., 2016

Well, ok, but i think its hard to compare people who can afford $21 and those who can afford to pledge $10k.

Its dissapointing, but it's my fault i gave you money.

Peter

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Corey Cole:
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30. Jan., 2016

Look at it this way. For $21, you helped create a game that would not have existed otherwise. That it is taking much longer than we originally thought is unfortunately normal in the game industry, but we will end up with a far better and more beautiful game as a result. Your donation has been very well spent.

You would have spent $40 to $50 to buy one of our games in 1995, which is like $200 today. In 20 years, you will remember that you helped create a game series, not that you “wasted” 2 hours of minimum wage pay.

-

Pedasn:
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30. Jan., 2016

Those $21 bucks are still an amount of money that would buy me 1 month of internet-service (much cheaper here than in the US). I don't think it needs to be ridiculed to 2 hours of minimum wage.
Even if you miscalculated money and time on your project, don't expect me to do the same.
I still would like to get a refund since a don't have money to burn, especially if the amount seems ridiculous to you.

-

Pedasn:
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30. Jan., 2016

But we can settle for $10 refund if thats acceptable for you. I understand you paid taxes and your share to Kickstarter and Amazon.

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Corey Cole:
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2. Feb., 2016

I'm not sure which artist or programmer you want me to take money away from so we can refund it to you. You donated money to the project, we used it in good faith to pay contractors. They have the money you contributed.

The remainder of the project is being funded with loans. There is no money left to refund, but we continue to borrow money to make sure we finish the game as promised.

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Pedasn:
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13. Feb., 2016

I'd rather get it from both of you. But if this is your way, please give me a list of programmers and artists working on the project. I will tell you from whome you should take it.
I see crowdfunding as a kind of contract. You promised a product, i gave you my money - it's a typical agreement. You didn't hold your part. Where i come from, we call this the duties of an honorable salesman and you should have refunded us a long time ago. You should have calculated time and money correctly before you place an offer. We have been put off again and again and again....
I don't want to settle for 10$ now. I want the full refund. Now

-

Corey Cole:
-----------
13. Feb., 2016

You are an incredibly selfish person. You are out $21, and Lori and I are out three years of our lives (working full-time on this project for no pay) as well as in debt $60,000. Are you so blind that you can’t see the difference in magnitude in that?

I will not refund your money because it would reward selfishness and greed. You paid to help us make a game; we used your money to help a TINY part of that game, and it no longer exists.

Feel free to sue or to make me look bad on social media, but it is not I who am being greedy and selfish here – it is you. What you paid for, you have long since gotten – pushing us to sacrifice part of our lives to make a game that you will eventually be able to play.

Incidentally, this email correspondence – besides raising both of our blood pressure – has already cost far more than $21 of time, if I paid myself any normal salary at all. It has also taken that much of your time, time you could instead have used to earn more than $21. Greed is a terrible thing.

Corey

This comment also caught my eye.

A history of the Hero U release date timeline:

In December 2012 (the original project launch date), you advertised to backers a release date of October 2013. (~1 year)
In October 2013, you set your new target as June 2014. (~8 months)
In October 2014, "I can’t promise a specific date, but it will be in 2015, and hopefully in the Summer." (~10 months)
In November 2014, "Lori and I have committed to a release date of Oct. 15, 2015." (~11 months)
In February 2015, "We are still on target for release on Oct. 15." (~8 months)
In May 2015, (the second Kickstarter), you advertised to second round backers an estimated delivery date of March 2016. (~10 months)
Now, in March 2016, your "best guess" is November 2016. (~8 months)

You've suggested you were only 8 months away twice already, and you've thought the project was doable within the next year for almost four years. I wish you all the success in the world, and I hope the end product proves to be amazing, but you've slipped dates 6 times as best as I can tell. During last year's Kickstarter, I had no expectation that you would make your March 2016 date, I can't say that my confidence is any higher now.

I have loved the games you've made in the past, and I hope this game turns out to be amazing. But I think for any future projects you would be well-served by seeking help with the less creative aspects of running a project like this.

 

[J1M]

If they had just refunded the $21 they would have received more money than that in additional donations. These people have terrible judgement. I haven't even commented on this new hire they've made, but for some reason I remember that person as a known SJW scam artist. Looking forward to a year from now when they complain about paying for incomplete un-attempted work.

 

[Sizzle]

If they had just refunded the $21 they would have received more money than that in additional donations. These people have terrible judgement. I haven't even commented on this new hire they've made, but for some reason I remember that person as a known SJW scam artist. Looking forward to a year from now when they complain about paying for incomplete un-attempted work.

She (?) worked worked on Revolution 60, of course she is.

I find it fascinating that people like that can even get hired in the games industry, I mean - you show up for a job interview and present Revolution 60 as part of your portfolio and you actually get that job?

 

[Irenaeus III]

The blue hair thing might have looked revolutionary to them.

 

[DeepOcean]

Jesus, time flies, this project started on 2012 and we are on 2016. If kickstarter teached me something was that the whole "We creative people don't need those nasty management people to cut our creativity." is BS as "We workers don't need the evil capitalists, we can do everything ourselves." I guess the lesson is don't assume that something you know nothing about is easy. The Coles should have hired someone else to deal with the production part or even seek advise from people that still do adventure games all those years they were on retirement. Still hope for this game but at this rate, it must be truly an amazing experience that puts the old Quest for Glorys to shame to make up for the whole time and two kickstarters worthy it.

 

[J1M]

Jesus, time flies, this project started on 2012 and we are on 2016. If kickstarter teached me something was that the whole "We creative people don't need those nasty management people to cut our creativity." is BS as "We workers don't need the evil capitalists, we can do everything ourselves." I guess the lesson is don't assume that something you know nothing about is easy. The Coles should have hired someone else to deal with the production part or even seek advise from people that still do adventure games all those years they were on retirement. Still hope for this game but at this rate, it must be truly an amazing experience that puts the old Quest for Glorys to shame to make up for the whole time and two kickstarters worthy it.

Is this a meme now? Or are the MBAs paying for plants? Isn't the first time I've seen this sort of agenda pushing.

You can't point at this one project, run by people who clearly had no idea what they were doing from the start, and use it as an example of why all creative people should slave away under the yoke of "project managers" and "business people". Are you going to pretend that Tim Schafer didn't have multiple business people managing his consistent failures to deliver on time and on budget? Are you going to ignore that a huge percentage of game projects started by the big publishers are cancelled before they are finished?

Big businesses are less efficient than independent creators. In part because I doubt the success rates are much different, and in part because there is a layer of high-paid executives and managers skimming off the top.

 

[Grotesque]

That serves you right for backing a project with a name like that!

 

[J1M]

That serves you right for backing a project with a name like that!

Who are you talking to? From my first post in this thread it's been pretty clear I wouldn't touch this thing. (Or anything by Tim)

 

[Mustawd]

Is this a meme now? Or are the MBAs paying for plants?

J1M, I'm not sure why you constantly think executives in charge of a project automatically have to have MBAs. I'm starting to think you lack a well rounded view of this issue due to lack of experience. Because I'd say most executives, especially in tech driven industries actually need some real world experience and background in the industry. they're just not random people with an MBA and a business background. they just happen to have good organizational, project management, and budgeting skills.

The company I work for, the execs almost all have operational or technology backgrounds (or both). The only person with a business degree is our CFO, which is just a Bachelor's. And a lot of our competitors in our industry have similar structures. Yes, when a company becomes more global and a F50 company, a lot of the executives need a broad range of business experience in sales, marketing, etc. But it does not preclude them from having a background in the initial type of work the company does. If anything, it's a preferred quality.

My biggest issue with projects like these, is that the Coles should have realized they don't currently have the skill set to pull off a project like this without either A.) outside help (i.e. good project manager(s) who can have dual roles) or B.) Take on a smaller project with a more limited scope to knock some of the rust off.

Instead, they saw this big Kickstarter pie, and they wanted a slice. The old adage, "hire people smarter than you", totally applies here. They should have hired some people who could handle the logistics, budgeting, and scope setting so they could concentrate on their strengths: Creating.

 

[DeepOcean]

Is this a meme now? Or are the MBAs paying for plants? Isn't the first time I've seen this sort of agenda pushing.

Dude, I was agreeing with you, yeah, the Coles are clueless and they need help as their talk of kickstarter as charity shows. How MBAs entered on this?

 

[J1M]

Is this a meme now? Or are the MBAs paying for plants? Isn't the first time I've seen this sort of agenda pushing.

You can't point at this one project, run by people who clearly had no idea what they were doing from the start, and use it as an example of why all creative people should slave away under the yoke of "project managers" and "business people". Are you going to pretend that Tim Schafer didn't have multiple business people managing his consistent failures to deliver on time and on budget? Are you going to ignore that a huge percentage of game projects started by the big publishers are cancelled before they are finished?

Big businesses are less efficient than independent creators. In part because I doubt the success rates are much different, and in part because there is a layer of high-paid executives and managers skimming off the top.

Dude, I was agreeing with you, yeah, the Coles are clueless and they need help as their talk of kickstarter as charity shows. How MBAs entered on this?

Read the rest of the post instead of quoting a couple of sentences.

 

[J1M]

Is this a meme now? Or are the MBAs paying for plants?

J1M, I'm not sure why you constantly think executives in charge of a project automatically have to have MBAs. I'm starting to think you lack a well rounded view of this issue due to lack of experience. Because I'd say most executives, especially in tech driven industries actually need some real world experience and background in the industry. they're just not random people with an MBA and a business background. they just happen to have good organizational, project management, and budgeting skills.

The company I work for, the execs almost all have operational or technology backgrounds (or both). The only person with a business degree is our CFO, which is just a Bachelor's. And a lot of our competitors in our industry have similar structures. Yes, when a company becomes more global and a F50 company, a lot of the executives need a broad range of business experience in sales, marketing, etc. But it does not preclude them from having a background in the initial type of work the company does. If anything, it's a preferred quality.

My biggest issue with projects like these, is that the Coles should have realized they don't currently have the skill set to pull off a project like this without either A.) outside help (i.e. good project manager(s) who can have dual roles) or B.) Take on a smaller project with a more limited scope to knock some of the rust off.

Instead, they saw this big Kickstarter pie, and they wanted a slice. The old adage, "hire people smarter than you", totally applies here. They should have hired some people who could handle the logistics, budgeting, and scope setting so they could concentrate on their strengths: Creating.

They are really coming out of the woodwork today.

Please, educate me on why all of these brilliant technical minds are spending their days on project management instead of inventing things. And how they weren't just business people-at-heart who barely finished a technical degree to lend themselves an air of legitimacy and a leg-up on other business people.

Also, nice try with pretending that an 'operational background' is distinct from a 'business background'.

 

[Mustawd]

Please, educate me on why all of these brilliant technical minds are spending their days on project management instead of inventing things

Yeah, ok, I think I'm gonna give up on this kind of conversation with you. Comments like these make it plainly obvious you really have no first-hand experience with how companies work. I mean do you even understand how company structures work? You think all the engineers on a project have the same amount of experience and expertise? I mean someone has to lead a project or division right? And the people who want this type of leadership role are the same types who end up moving from being a regular engineer, to a project lead, to a division lead. I mean this is basic stuff.

Also, nice try with pretending that an 'operational background' is distinct from a 'business background'.

Lmao, you really do tell on yourself don't you? Since this is the last time I'll discuss this with someone who really doesn't have a clue, I'll just say that operations can vary throughout a company. Think of a theme park...the logistics of moving rides around...of training people in how the them park is run...and in overall "operations" of the theme park. That kind of experience does not necessarily count as "business" knowledge. It can be gritty work and it involves managing people as well as making decisions on the fly based on experience within that industry.

But I'm done talking about it with you. You obviously have an agenda, so I'll leave you to that.

 

[DeepOcean]

Read the rest of the post instead of quoting a couple of sentences.

I did read the rest of your post, I just don't know what your point is and I don't know what you said had anything to do with what I said. Most adventure game kickstarters ended on really badly run projects that gone overbudget and delivered nothing or delivered a mess, the Coles weren't the only ones. I'm not saying these projects would be better run by publishers, no, they wouldn't even be greenlit.

The fact that major publishers are just focused on making mass market shit doesn't mean all kinds of management are that same way, you can't make a game and have to deal with the logistics of the project at the same time, you will end sacrificing one of the two. There are people who have more affinity with the creative side and people with more affinity to the production side and they tend to not pay much attention to the part they don't like. There is a reason why many successful kickstarter projects have people sole dedicated to the production role, that was my point. If you are on this crusade against MBAs or something, lucky for you, it just had nothing to do with what I said and honestly it isn't even a topic I care enough to defend your MBAs.

 

[Pope Amole II]

There is a reason why many successful kickstarter projects have people sole dedicated to the production role, that was my point.

 

[Mustawd]

Such a great movie.

 

[LESS T_T]

http://hero-u.com/spring-forward/

Spring Forward

In the midst of Winter, there are times when it seems as if the chilling gloom will never end. Game projects go through a similar period when the game is like a scattered jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces missing. It is hard to believe that the project will ever be completed. But even in the depths of the coldest and darkest Winter days, we know that Spring will be reborn with joyous warmth and sunshine. So too, we know that Hero-U will find all the pieces of the puzzle, put them together into a beautiful picture, and we will be ready to release the game so that we can share that beauty with all of you.

The pieces are coming together now. There are many more pieces to this game puzzle than we expected when we started out. We listened to our fans and supporters. Thus, the Sea Caves are much more extensive than we planned. Our animation is becoming more sophisticated. Our programming is becoming more elegant and expressive.

It will still take months to fit all the pieces into the game. It will take more months to test it all and make sure it lives up to its heritage of QfG and the expectations of its fans. However, we are springing closer to our goal every day.

Spring Fling

All of the backgrounds for the Sea Caves have been completed by JP Selwood and Aaron Martin. This means that all of the background art is finished.

So, is the art done? No, not exactly.

When we started out designing the art for the game, we created backgrounds like a stage set with many reusable walls and props. This made the scenes seem a little dull and artificial.

We have started the polishing phase of the project. We are going over many of the older rooms now to make them more dramatic and dynamic. Each prop is handcrafted from the finest pixels. Each room is aglow with the careful arrangement of many-colored lights. It’s amazing what lighting can do to bring out the emotions in a scene.

We are also refining and improving our user interface design to make the game play intuitive and yet beautiful.

Our newest programmer, Carolyn VanEseltine, is crafting each scene with character movements and camera placement to bring a cinematic approach to game interaction.

Josh Mandel is bringing his clever wit and wry humor to Hero-U whenever the player examines objects or interacts with the myriad of props and decorations in the rooms.

My dialogue script keeps getting longer and more sophisticated as the stories of all the characters in the game are revealed. This is the richest, most complex story I have ever written.

The game just keeps getting better and better.

Of all the games I’ve worked on in the past, Hero-U has the best team and the best art. I could not be prouder of what we are creating with Rogue to Redemption.

Spring Break

I was asked to speak about Adventure Games at the 30th Game Developer’s Conference in San Francisco in Mid March. I was one of twelve Keynote Speakers; together, we gave a retrospective of the game industry over the past 30 years.

There are some truly amazing Adventure Games today. The genre did not die when Sierra folded and LucasArts turned its back on the medium. Instead, adventure games morphed into the interactive, episodic stories of Telltale Games and other studios. They are being jumpstarted by Kickstarter, giving designers like Ron Gilbert (Monkey Island), Tim Schafer (Day of the Tentacle, Grim Fandango), and Jane Jensen (Gabriel Knight) the opportunity to make great games once more. Games like “Her Story” and “Life is Strange” tell compelling stories by reinventing the genre.

Adventure Games are alive and well.

 

[Mustawd]

The pieces are coming together now. There are many more pieces to this game puzzle than we expected when we started out. We listened to our fans and supporters. Thus, the Sea Caves are much more extensive than we planned.

 

[DeepOcean]

Josh Mandel is bringing his clever wit and wry humor to Hero-U whenever the player examines objects or interacts with the myriad of props and decorations in the rooms.

Good, good, Josh Mandel is a bro.

 

[Barbarian]

I backed this for gratitude. I mean, I had hours of enjoyment with the QfG series and also Shannara, and never paid a dime for that(the games were already old when I discovered them, and back then GoG didn't exist). Even if I bought them today, I doubt they will be getting a single cent from the sales of those packaged scummvm installers from gog. The Coles deserved my money even if I ain't particularly enthusiastic about this project.

They haven't released a game in 15 years and the name and premise of this are kind of silly though. I wish they did a straight european mythology inspired fantasy romp such as QfG 1 and 4. I would have been excited about something like that.