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Heresy: There is no reason to expect a 2D-isometric engine again. But now we do have one...

J_C

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Pretty much the entirety of Skyrim was made by a team of 10

You mean these "10"?

Concept Art
Adam Adamowicz
Ray Lederer
World Art
Cory Edwards
Tony Greco
Daniel T. Lee
Nate Purkeypile
Rashad Redic
Ryan Sears
Clara Struthers
Rafael Vargas
Robert Wisnewski
Lead Environment Art
Noah Berry
Environment Art
Andy Barron
Ryan Salvatore
Megan Sawyer
Additional Environment Art
Gabrielle Adams
Alex Schwartz-Rudd
Christopher Zdana
Special Effects
Grant Struthers
Mark Teare
Additional Effects
Liz Rapp
Lead Animator
Josh Jones
Animation
Jeremy Bryant
Jangjoon Cha
Lianne Cruz
Gary Noonan
Juan Sanchez
Ricardo Vicens
Alex Utting
Additional Animation
Ray Arnett
Lead Character Artist
Christiane H. K. Meister
Character Art
Ben Carnow
Charles Kim
Jonah Lobe
Dennis Mejillones
Dane Olds
Yan Qin
Additional Character Art
Liz Beetem
Hiu Lai Chong
Lucas Hardi
Massive Black
Interface Art
Natalia Smirnova
Additional Graphic Design
Istvan Pely
Lead Level Designer
Jeff Browne
Level Design
Daryl Brigner
Joel Burgess
Steve Cornett
Ryan Jenkins
Andrew Langlois
Justin Schram

And these are just the ones who work on level design and art. And with all these people, Skyrim looks pretty cheap on a lot of areas. Oh, and let's not do the math on salaries, comparing it to the salaries of the PoE developers.



Are you really this dumb Draq? Do you need me to spell out your bullshit?
 

DraQ

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This has nothing to do with PoE. You said that the ENTIRETY of Skyrim was done by 10 people. And I called bullshit on that.
Yes, Skyrim as area, not Skyrim as game. Which should be evident from the context.

All the places in Skyrim were made by a team of 10 people, and I don't think the dungeons being linear had any significant impact on the process itself, this seems like more of a concession made for dumb players and/or script happy quest designers.
 

J_C

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Does interface artist have anything to do with environments or level design? No.
Character artist? No.

PoE had 4 people responsible for the entirety of environmental stuff.
Skyrim had 10.
This has nothing to do with PoE. You said that the ENTIRETY of Skyrim was done by 10 people. And I called bullshit on that.

And Skyrim needed another 30 people to make the game, while Obsidian needed around 15.
 
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J_C

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Yes, Skyrim as area, not Skyrim as game. Which should be evident from the context.

All the places in Skyrim were made by a team of 10 people, and I don't think the dungeons being linear had any significant impact on the process itself, this seems like more of a concession made for dumb players and/or script happy quest designers.
But it was not made by 10 people. For Skyrim to look like Skyrim all those people I listed from the credits were needed. The 10 enviroment artist alone don't make a game. They need the effect artists, animation artist (to make creatures, so the map is not empty), they need concept artist and so on. And in the end, PoE need much less people to pull out a pretty huge game. Not Skyrim big, but big nonetheless. Doing this while they had to figure out how to make 2D game in the Unity engine, and not having the experience of the TES team, who work with the same engine, doing the same games for a decade.
 

Farage

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Its ironic that people are building 2D games in unity (example: Broforce) and someone still hopes for a simulation of 3D (isometric) on a 2D engine, thats just being straight-up dumb.
A 2D isometric engine requires a lot of math that a 3D engine would solve on its own and the 3D engines today are pretty powerful and cheap, so OP is right.

Another thing is that you don't need to use 3D models when making an isometric game, thats completely optional, you could simulate space using invisible shapes and use 2D sprite-sheet models. (example: Don't Starve)
 

J_C

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A 2D isometric engine requires a lot of math that a 3D engine would solve on its own
Good thing we have those thingies called powerful camputors computers, so we don't have to care about that. :P
 

Akratus

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
086.png
 

DefJam101

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skyrim looks like shit

OTOH in a 3D game you don't have to cope with neatly ordered corpses, each laying in exact same way regardless of the context.
if we're going to say this we must also note that ragdoll corpses look much worse than pre-animated deaths in 99% of cases
 

:Flash:

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Its ironic that people are building 2D games in unity (example: Broforce) and someone still hopes for a simulation of 3D (isometric) on a 2D engine, thats just being straight-up dumb.
A 2D isometric engine requires a lot of math that a 3D engine would solve on its own and the 3D engines today are pretty powerful and cheap, so OP is right.
Yeah, a 3D engine doesn't need math at all.
Oh I forgot, it solves its math on its own, whereas with an isometric engine, the player has to solve all the Math.
We found the reason for the decline. Player doesn't need to solve the Math of isometric engines any more.
I really enjoyed doing the Math, I just hated those games where you had to re-roll over and over again, to get the parameters for the engine right.
 

DraQ

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skyrim looks like shit
Skyrim needed to run on shit hardware.
As for art design - it isn't half bad even if not exactly nearing the heights of what was done in IE engine.
In any case, the ability of such small team to construct such a large volume of visually distinct content is impressive.

if we're going to say this we must also note that ragdoll corpses look much worse than pre-animated deaths in 99% of cases
Not in any situation where the number of corpses on screen becomes an issue for ragdoll ones.
Then pre-animated ones start repeating in obvious manner.

Yes, you can make pretty cool gory anims with sprites, but these days it's possible with 3D as well, and you can mix and match preanimated stuff with ragdolling in increasingly fluid manner.
 

shihonage

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Interactive as in giving meaningful gameplay options, like destructible environment in Silent Storm.

It's a stupid argument. Crusader series had a destructible environment. Sprites are just building elements of a scene, and they can be destroyed like anything else.
 

Untermensch

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It's a stupid argument. Crusader series had a destructible environment. Sprites are just building elements of a scene, and they can be destroyed like anything else.
I wasn't talking about tile-based games, but games like Baldur's gate, ToEE
 

Athelas

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It's a stupid argument. Crusader series had a destructible environment. Sprites are just building elements of a scene, and they can be destroyed like anything else.
Sure, you can implement those things in 2d, but to nowhere near the same level of complexity as you can in a 3d game.



 

Athelas

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I suppose you don't if you don't like having more interesting and dynamic gameplay.
 

Kem0sabe

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Why would I want a 2d isometric RPG when I can have highly interactive environment instead?
More engine features doesnt equate to more fun or more innovative game play. The more stuff you have to design your game around, the more focus you loose on what actually makes an rpg interesting.

That being said, everyone tends o have a different idea of what's fun or not.
 

Lyric Suite

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3D is waaaay better than 2D.
2D used to look better but today with advancement of 3D, it's not much better looking.

This argument is misleading though because you are thinking of 2D then while comparing it with 3D now. When was the last time a company spent serious time and money on 2D? What would an AAA 2D game look like now? This question never seems to be taken into consideration.
 

shihonage

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I wasn't talking about tile-based games, but games like Baldur's gate, ToEE

According to my sources, there's been no developer ban declared on having destructible sprite objects on top of pre-rendered backgrounds.

I suppose you don't if you don't like having more interesting and dynamic gameplay.

Jagged Alliance 2, a sprite-based game, had deeper strategic combat than many games you find today.

Diablo 2 was a much deeper and replayable game than Diablo 3.

Fallout 1/2 were much deeper games than Fallout 3.

Crusader had more of a destructive environment than many of today's shooters, plus it had kickass atmosphere, audio design and story.

The barrier to enhancing gameplay is rarely this "impenetrable wall of graphics limitations", and in 99% of cases, it is the designers' and programmers' lack of skill.

Technological graphics improvements don't magically get you a reactive world, dynamic faction allegiances, situation-appropriate NPC quips, or an immersive branching story.

Graphics technology has increased by leaps and bounds, but what we get in the end is usually a shallow game with really realistic crease in a character's pants and 3 dialogue choices, 2 of which lead to the same outcome. Or hey, now the body falls in the direction you shot it! #depth

Meanwhile you complete the highest quests in Skyrim and then NPCs still treat you like a noob, and when you enter and leave a tiny hut, in a 2012 game, you have the same LOADING SCREENS as you had in 1995's Future Shock.

So, let's stop making graphics technology as some kind of savior of gameplay. It can enhance the depth that is already there, but most companies struggle with non-shitty writing, dynamic dialogue, world reactivity, and story branching far more than they do with realistic wind simulation on the polygonal leaves.
 
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Self-Ejected

Lilura

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Why would I want destructible elements in my 2d isometric rpg?

While I love my 2d isometric RPGs and they'll always have a place for me, what's wrong with some destructibility thrown into the mix?

In fact, (2d) Jagged Alliance 2 did it years ago..

And think of it this way: you're not just blowing the guy up, you're blowing him AND his HOUSE up! It's just more satisfying..

(2d does not preclude [limited] destructible environments..)
 

Athelas

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Jagged Alliance 2, a sprite-based game, had deeper strategic combat than many games you find today.

Diablo 2 was a much deeper and replayable game than Diablo 3.

Fallout 1/2 were much deeper games than Fallout 3.

Crusader had more of a destructive environment than many of today's shooters, plus it had kickass atmosphere, audio design and story.

The barrier to enhancing gameplay is rarely this "impenetrable wall of graphics limitations", and in 99% of cases, it is the designers' and programmers' lack of skill.

Technological graphics improvements don't magically get you a reactive world, dynamic faction allegiances, situation-appropriate NPC quips, or an immersive branching story.

Graphics technology has increased by leaps and bounds, but what we get in the end is usually a shallow game with really realistic crease in a character's pants and 3 dialogue choices, 2 of which lead to the same outcome. Or hey, now the body falls in the direction you shot it! #depth

Meanwhile you complete the highest quests in Skyrim and then NPCs still treat you like a noob, and when you enter and leave a tiny hut, in a 2012 game, you have the same LOADING SCREENS as you had in 1995's Future Shock.

So, let's stop making graphics technology as some kind of savior of gameplay. It can enhance the depth that is already there, but most devs struggle with non-shitty writing, dynamic dialogue, world reactivity, and story branching far more than they do with realistic wind simulation on the polygonal leaves.
:hmmm:

You're not actually engaging with anything I posted. You're making my post out to be a strawman. The point wasn't graphics, but the capabilities of 3d. If you think having to judge structural integrity of a building and making a choice about where to best bomb that building to bring it down as efficiently as possible makes for boring gameplay, that's perfectly fine, but it is gameplay that utilizes the capabilities of 3d in a way that 2d can't.
 
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