Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Decline Hearts of Iron 4 - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by GarfunkeL, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Make America Great Again The Brazilian Slaughtergender: ⚧ Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
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    So, is this game worthwhile yet? I'm still playing Darkest Hour.
     
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  2. just janior pretty pretty please.gender: ⚧ Magister

    just janior pretty pretty please.
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    I wish it was :negative:
     
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  3. not an artichokegender: ⚧ Savant

    not an artichoke
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    I manage to soak some enjoyment out of KR and other mods, but I wouldn't recommend it yet
     
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  4. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    HoI4 KR is best HoI ever.
     
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  5. Dakkagender: ⚧ Educated

    Dakka
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    I want to like HoI4, but its glaring flaws are difficult to ignore. It's never a good sign when a modding team puts the developer to shame like that. Don't get me wrong, Kaiserreich is awesome, but it would be nice to be able to play the game with that level of quality in a more traditional WW2 setting.
     
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  6. AwesomeButtongender: ⚧ Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    I wish I could get myself interested in the fantasy WWI scenario.
     
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  7. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
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    Wait another 8 years for Victoria III
     
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  8. Dakkagender: ⚧ Educated

    Dakka
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    At this rate, I worry that they will simplify the economics simulation and pile on the DLC.
     
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  9. AwesomeButtongender: ⚧ Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    Victoria has always been oversimplified sandbox with just a whiff of historical accuracy.
     
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  10. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    "Oversimplified" absolutely fails in description, if anything Victoria is a good example of unnecessary complexity having a negative impact both on gameplay and historical accuracy for zero gain. And I say this as someone that loves the Victoria games.
     
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  11. AwesomeButtongender: ⚧ Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
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    Yes, I should have said "oversimplified simulation of the Victorian era", mostly in terms of how diplomacy works, but also militaries and "research".
     
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  12. mbv123gender: ⚧ Learned

    mbv123
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    I cri evry taim

     
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  13. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Me too, though truth is that East vs West fucked itself over by the dev team's decision to insist on including multiplayer when it first signs of overstretching the project appeared.

    Well the research thing should just be thrown out of the window IMO since it just ends up rather silly and it's one of the reason why the westernization thing is turned into such an insurmountable obstacle if you cannot just bypass it like Japan.

    Having a better diplomatic system would be by far the most important thing, in terms of military the basic thing needed would be eliminating the way armies are handled and instead build from ground up with a bigger link to the economics (and diplomacy), it SHOULD be all about the military trade goods and mobilization model. WWI is just not something Victoria has ever managed to do before, and it certainly cannot do it with a day based timescale instead of a 24 hour timescale, and it should go without saying that the military model would have to BUILD towards the stalemate and bottomless sink of Western Front. The same with the economic model would need to be true as well, with a major achilles heel for Germany come WWI (if come) being the fact you sort of needed that international trade you're now cut off from and it's not fun and games anymore.

    The way I think it should be reworked is that the number of goods produced by factories and RGOs could be cut down if at the same time these goods are made to have more of a real and historical impact in the game, the most basic example being combining foodstuffs to a single trade good (let's call it "McDonald's" for this example), with the important thing being that McDonald's is not produced everywhere equally, RGO productivity should be determined less by gamey "tech" and much more by societal standards and methods of agricultural production, with the everpresent impact of McDonald's being the fact your people and mobilized troops can eat. A good example of these in action would be Famine Years in Finland in 1866-1868, caused by inefficient traditional farming methods combined with worst possible weather, with one of the aftermath effects being reformation of the agriculture to one based more in actual effectiveness (introduction of different staple crops to replace or supplement wheat, expansion and sponsorship of livestock) of agriculture that results in a more robust agricultural base that avoided famines in later crises (such as WW1).

    Trade of goods and standards of living of pops will also need to be shifted away from "moves in mysterious ways" and more player-involved. Since the game isn't actually a "run a cabinet in 19th century" but controlling a nation in its entirety, there needs to be some element of Fordism's impact in the player changing values relevant to their nation.
     
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  14. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Victoria's economic systems were fucked up beyond any repair. It was awful under ANY political system. Planned Economy, feisless faire, capitalism, anything. Factories were a mess, influence sphere was a mess. Demand was a mess. Everything was a mess. Get China to your sphere, get insane demand and infinite markey for your goods - WHAM. All your factories close because trillions of artisans flood your market with dirt cheap stuff. Because game have no concept for ptotecting your own market and influence sphere works both ways, crippling master as well as client.
     
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  15. Dakkagender: ⚧ Educated

    Dakka
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    That's true, but how many games like it do you know of?
     
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  16. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    See that's where I say that I like Supreme Ruler games but on a certain level playing them still feels like getting kicked in the balls repeatedly. So what that's to say is that even if you have no alternatives you should still bitch about the things that are wrong.

    And many of these aspects of suck are all united by two flaws: Busywork chores, or the nearly total absence of control. Like, I always nowadays mod all economic policies to at least include the AI automatically expanding the fucking mines because it becomes a neverending nightmare otherwise. Or the equally half-assed idea of having the standing armies only become that much more of a pain in the ass because of the idea of linking regiments to provinces for manpower. On the other hand, you have the supply and demand which operate on completely mysterious and nonsensical rules, usually only made worse because even the base game has TOO MANY trade goods (a good example being all the various foodstuffs WHICH SERVE NO PURPOSE) many of which exist in strange vacuums, and usually the only thing that matters in longterm economics is starting with enough literacy and having coal autarky because world market and coal work in really fucking mysterious ways.

    Ultimately the only thing you can do with the economic systems of Victoria games as they are is either ignore them and just look at the cashflow (which in turn goes back to Victoria being far too dominated by the size of core pop population above all things, which is probably only overshadowed in terms of longterm effects by whether or not you start as Civilized or you're Japan since everyone else is just permanently fucked), or you can try to break the system.

    I again have to point out to as an example of how economic systems involving produced goods should be handled the wonderfully elegant crops/cash/troops/bonus system in the new Nobunaga's Ambition game, where economics is directly tied to war because your niggas need their rice on the go. Autumn is the time for war and big plans since that's when the big harvest happens. These are really simple steps but because they are so intuitively part of the larger scheme of things in the game, they produce that very important outcome of the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Victoria economic systems are complexity for the sake of complexity (NEVER a good idea), which ultimately only ends in a dysfunctional mess that only interacts with the rest of the game as a detriment to it and is so cumbersome and corpulent that it cannot be fixed.
     
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  17. Make America Great Again Average Manateegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I played V2 MP, and it's true that you basically ignore 90% of the economy because it's actually irrelevant to the game. All that really matters is abusing the pop promotion rules (tip: they don't actually need food, or clothes, or anything really) for clergy/bureaucrats/soldiers, along with spamming artillery factories (by far the most expensive but also the most deadly in battle). Then there's the tedious battle micro and micro involved in generals. All factories you just subsidize because anything actually important needs to be there, supply and demand by damned. Since your pops don't actually need their needs you can tax and tariff 100% to pay for it all.

    Don't even get me started on the clusterfuck that is the sphereing system. I can't imagine a more micro-wasting activity, made all the worse by the fact that it's 100% possible to abuse AIs into easily getting control of the entire world if you try hard enough, but you'll have to mess with shit every damn day.

    Also if you're Japan then you better max your clipper stockpile on day 1, because you'll never actually be able to buy clippers with your shit rank once the rest of the world places their orders and you'll need that shit to conquer for research and westernize before everyone else in the world is a superpower. Literally a game ruining mistake if you hit day 2 without doing this.
     
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  18. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Well you subsidize until you notice one of those factories is taking enormous subsidies. Then you unsubsidize that one factory. And you're just fucked if you play Laissez Faire without a mod that at least tries to fix the broader economy.

    And yea war is also a total fucking pain in Victoria 2 because the EU type combat system is ultimately very very boring and non-involved, where usually the most decisive factors are technology (since Vicky is also a believer in the "huge jump" in military technology effects) and raw numbers so you can encircle and envelop.

    But most importantly the sphere system needs to fucking die in the gutter.
     
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  19. passerbygender: ⚧ Learned

    passerby
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    Fxd
     
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  20. Humppalekagender: ⚧ Arbiter

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    So... Recommended mods for Vic II? :) Also, any point in playing Vic I outside of seeing how the game has evolved?
     
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  21. Dakkagender: ⚧ Educated

    Dakka
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    I recommend Historical Project Mod and Cold War Enhancement Mod. Historical Project Mod attempts to improve the game while sticking to the base game experience. The Cold War Enhancement mod is a continuation of the New World Order mod, I think, and it's good if you want to play in a Cold War or modern day setting. From what little I played of the original Victoria, it seemed nice, but unfortunately I can't get it to run on this machine.

    I can forgive everything else about it for the most part, but war is easily my least favorite part of the game. I feel it would be a lot more tolerable if you could organize your armies into groups and automatically rebuild them when brigades got destroyed, and if they didn't reinforce from specific soldier pops that inevitably got too low, making you replace them.

    Again, you've all got great points. Vicky 2 is obviously deeply flawed, just like HoI 4 as well as so many other Paradox games. To the best of my knowledge though, the unfortunate reality is that Paradox doesn't have competition in the grand strategy market. Maybe they would step up their game if it did. If there are any viable alternatives, please tell me.
     
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  22. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Personally I play Vicky 2 on a custom-modded PoP Demand Zero or Concert of Europe (largely focused around making the game more enjoyable to me by changing things like assimilation rates for different countries and fiddling events and modifiers, events in particular with Concert since some things are just fucked up like the First Italian War of Independence). I should give HPM and CWE a try too I figure (I've stuck with PDM and its spin-offs more than anything out of habit).
     
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  23. Nirvashgender: ⚧ Educated

    Nirvash
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    Cold war is cute but also bloated and imbalanced.

    The game last until 2080 or something but nothing really change, even when SU implode in mid game, no big nation ever goes to war if not for some minor rebellion or regional stuff like india-paki or arabia.
    War is just very discouraged, the onu fast embrago your ass and conquered territory is troublesome to keep. (alot of decolonization stuff)
    Play a minor and you are likely to never know war or ever be able to catch up in industry/tech.
    Then in late you get some crazy merges like usa eating mex/canada for the "N america union", maybe russia eating something for "eurasia union", UK going full EU merge maybe with just norway etc. (england is perma WP due to absurd prestige and nothing else)
    Industry is no better than vanilla, world power status starve everyone else for resources and you can rush some stuff (computer/pharma/health) in very high demant and very low supply for decades.
    War is... bloated, no different than vanilla but you can have millions troops to manage.
    Politics are.... i dunno, there are like 200+ one time decisions and a dozen of policies plus the normal laws and stuff, is actually one of the most in deep "nation politics total simulator" i played, but in the end is still just cheap numbers and fluff. (like you get 20 "year xxxx conference anti terrorism, yes for some prestige)

    I suggest to play a australia a bit for prarice and then get a big shot and go full hitler.
     
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  24. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarnegender: ⚧ for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Bloated and unbalanced tends to be a recurring theme with Pdox game mods, a lot of them simply go too far in adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff.
     
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  25. Dakkagender: ⚧ Educated

    Dakka
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    As opposed to official Paradox DLC, which does the exact opposite nowadays.
     
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