Development Info Guido Henkel returns to cRPGs with Thorvalla?

[skuphundaku]

That was my reaction as well, but I plan to greet any of The Man's ideas with an open mind.

I can't keep an open mind when I read "card-trading", it just brings images of those yearly MTG games into my head
I feel so down now, I mean why not have a completely nostalgia glasses project, a computer game simulation of pen and paper, I mean what kind of "new" things could you possibly put into an RPG which wouldn't make it worse? There's nothing really to improve on, the inventory systems, interface have already pretty much been perfected in previous games

This P&P fundamentalism is misguided because there is a reason that precludes P&P from being implemented on a computer without any alterations: you don't have a gamemaster in a computer game. Until the advent of hard AI, any attempts to flat-out implement classic P&P in a computer game without taking into account that the computer can't dynamically react to the players are going to end in tears.

In reality, you don't want anything else than a rehash of the old games, because, after all, "the inventory systems, interface have already pretty much been perfected in previous games" and I'm sure that even simply improving the graphics would be considered decline and graphic-whorism by people like you.

I would rather have them try something new and have a chance to fail than just rehash 20 years old games and fail for sure.

 

[crafthack]

That was my reaction as well, but I plan to greet any of The Man's ideas with an open mind.

I can't keep an open mind when I read "card-trading", it just brings images of those yearly MTG games into my head
I feel so down now, I mean why not have a completely nostalgia glasses project, a computer game simulation of pen and paper, I mean what kind of "new" things could you possibly put into an RPG which wouldn't make it worse? There's nothing really to improve on, the inventory systems, interface have already pretty much been perfected in previous games

This P&P fundamentalism is misguided because there is a reason that precludes P&P from being implemented on a computer without any alterations: you don't have a gamemaster in a computer game. Until the advent of hard AI

good hard AI for RPG's can be done, and has been done before, if anything the improvements to coding over the years make it more likely to accurately simulate role-playing mechanics without a dm

any attempts to flat-out implement classic P&P in a computer game without taking into account that the computer can't dynamically react to the players are going to end in tears.

What's this "can't do" attitude, it's just a matter of giving the computer more varied options for encounters and events to throw at the player, and make those events dependent on other things in the game. Just because current AI isn't able to simulate a DM perfectly it doesn't mean it couldn't do a good enough job to create a memorable experience if the right effort is put in by developers

In reality, you don't want anything else than a rehash of the old games, because, after all, "the inventory systems, interface have already pretty much been perfected in previous games" and I'm sure that even simply improving the graphics would be considered decline and graphic-whorism by people like you.

And? RPG's like RoA barely even existed before they stopped being made, I mean can you name me games like RoA? The Gold Box games were only really a simulation of char generation and combat. Nothing needs to be changed

I would rather have them try something new and have a chance to fail than just rehash 20 years old games and fail for sure.

Fail how? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it's a bad game, games have regressed since then, so really it's a matter of getting RPG's back to where they were before

 

[skuphundaku]

good hard AI for RPG's can be done, and has been done before

I don't think you know what hard AI means ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_AI ).

if anything the improvements to coding over the years make it more likely to accurately simulate role-playing mechanics without a dm... What's this "can't do" attitude, it's just a matter of giving the computer more varied options for encounters and events to throw at the player, and make those events dependent on other things in the game. Just because current AI isn't able to simulate a DM perfectly it doesn't mean it couldn't do a good enough job to create a memorable experience if the right effort is put in by developers

You're not a programmer/computer engineer/computer scientist I take, otherwise you couldn't say/write that with a straight face and not burst into laughter. What you're talking about is not really AI, but adding much more rules for the computer to follow. The problem with that is the player will always be able to think of something that don't conform to those rules. A human DM can take that into account, a computer can't. In order to make the computer act more believably, the number of rules that must be implemented increase exponentially and, soon, it becomes a clusterfuck to implement and debug, which, in the end, results in a buggy mess that most people won't bother with.

I would rather have them try something new and have a chance to fail than just rehash 20 years old games and fail for sure.

Fail how? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it's a bad game, games have regressed since then, so really it's a matter of getting RPG's back to where they were before

In some way they regressed, but in other ways they improved. I don't want to fight against the interface like in the olden days and I don't want graphics that make me want to scratch my eyes out.

 

[artakserkso]

In reality, you don't want anything else than a rehash of the old games, because, after all, "the inventory systems, interface have already pretty much been perfected in previous games" and I'm sure that even simply improving the graphics would be considered decline and graphic-whorism by people like you.

And? RPG's like RoA barely even existed before they stopped being made, I mean can you name me games like RoA? The Gold Box games were only really a simulation of char generation and combat. Nothing needs to be changed

I would rather have them try something new and have a chance to fail than just rehash 20 years old games and fail for sure.

Fail how? Just because a game is old doesn't mean it's a bad game, games have regressed since then, so really it's a matter of getting RPG's back to where they were before

It's one thing to change a winning formula completely, but to do nothing with it except copy it verbatim is another. We're talking about experimenting with a few (or, in this case, just one) unconventional twists in one particular game. If they turn out fun, then we build upon them in another game; if not, we scrap them forever. In time, we get refinements that appeal to at least a (hopefully big) part of the community. The part they don't suit is welcome to either make or root for a game tailored to their preferences (or both).

EDIT(s): Quoting and spelling fail(s).

 

[crafthack]

good hard AI for RPG's can be done, and has been done before

I don't think you know what hard AI means ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_AI ).

Players I think understand technical limitations, especially on low-budget games, and do not expect the computer to be smarter than a human being, it just should be "good enough" for a good game, a good experience.

You're not a programmer/computer engineer/computer scientist I take, otherwise you couldn't say/write that with a straight face and not burst into laughter. What you're talking about is not really AI, but adding much more rules for the computer to follow. The problem with that is the player will always be able to think of something that don't conform to those rules. A human DM can take that into account, a computer can't. In order to make the computer act more believably, the number of rules that must be implemented increase exponentially and, soon, it becomes a clusterfuck to implement and debug, which, in the end, results in a buggy mess that most people won't bother with.

I'm not a programmer, but what would be alternative be to not being ambitious? Making a simplistic game that didn't at least try to simulate pen & paper sessions in a computer game format? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

In some way they regressed, but in other ways they improved. I don't want to fight against the interface like in the olden days and I don't want graphics that make me want to scratch my eyes out.

How have they improved, examples. Graphics and interface were technical limitations of the time

 

[kaizoku]

They are apparently giving exclusive game item to the backers of 25 dolllars and up, not so sure is that a good idea.

you mean like PE did?
:shock:
It's likely some cosmetic item. I'm fine with this.

Harness a dragon and he is yours to command.

I really don't like the sound of this... it gives the impression this is a common task, making dragons just another critter. Will we ever have a game where there will be enemy dragons but which are virtually impossible to kill?
I also hope he doesn't get himself burned with the dragons thing... And I mean it in respect to the wider/mainstreamer KS audience, who may have played Skyrim and is tired of dragons.
fuck, I haven't played it and I'm myself somewhat tired of them.
I was expecting this game to have a more "down to earth" gameplay.

Whipthorn, your enormous combat dragon, settles restlessly against his restraints [....], makes it hard for the majestic animal to find proper foothold.

One thing we can tell you, however, is that the game will in part be inspired by trading card games. Don’t misunderstand, however. Thorwalla is not a card game! Instead, it functions much more like a traditional RPG with turn-based combat. The difference will be in that the cards represent, supplement and enhance the characters’ abilities, much in the way traditional character attributes do.

Do not want!
This needs clarification, but I don't like it.
Why not use attributes, skills and perks? Aren't those enough?

As in the Realms of Arkania games, the travel map will be one of the most exciting features, actually, as countless events, missions and encounters are hidden in the map that will be unlocked as the story unfolds. Occasionally, you will find a hidden path, based on information you may have obtained elsewhere. At other times you may find yourself ambushed, while on other occasions yet, you may just have managed to avoid a trap as the result of one of your characters’ many skills. Camping, hunting, gathering, discovering, and healing are just a few of the exciting possibilities the map has to offer the daring adventurer.

On a final note, that artwork is looking a bit too cartoony for my taste

I hope they fix that.

 

[majestik12]

That stuff does not even look like "artwork". More like stuff that people draw when they get bored at business meetings.

 

[skuphundaku]

...what would be alternative be to not being ambitious? Making a simplistic game that didn't at least try to simulate pen & paper sessions in a computer game format? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

What I'm trying to say is that you give up on the "has to simulate P&P to the letter" requirement, then the developer can focus on how to work around the limitation of the computer not being able to improvise and, as a result, create a good game. Computer game developers should focus on developing good computer games, not good RPG systems, because you can have a good computer game with a sub-optimal RPG system and a shit computer game with a good RPG system. It's the same problem one encounters when you get movie critics or writers that bash games for games making shitty movies or books. Of course they make shitty movies and books. Games are not supposed to be movies or books just as how they're not supposed to be P&P RPGs.

In some way they regressed, but in other ways they improved. I don't want to fight against the interface like in the olden days and I don't want graphics that make me want to scratch my eyes out.

How have they improved, examples. Graphics and interface were technical limitations of the time

Exactly, interfaces and graphics have overcome the technical limitations of the time and improved constantly. Want examples? Almost any decent game developed in year N+1 compared to any decent game developed in year N.

 

[Roguey]

That's some of the best concept art I've seen, the artist has a decent grasp of anatomy and style unlike most hack artists who work in the game industry.

The planned development time for Thorvalla will be 18 months

Oh FFS

 

[crafthack]

...what would be alternative be to not being ambitious? Making a simplistic game that didn't at least try to simulate pen & paper sessions in a computer game format? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

What I'm trying to say is that you give up on the "has to simulate P&P to the letter" requirement, then the developer can focus on how to work around the limitation of the computer not being able to improvise and, as a result, create a good game. Computer game developers should focus on developing good computer games, not good RPG systems, because you can have a good computer game with a sub-optimal RPG system and a shit computer game with a good RPG system. It's the same problem one encounters when you get movie critics or writers that bash games for games making shitty movies or books. Of course they make shitty movies and books. Games are not supposed to be movies or books just as how they're not supposed to be P&P RPGs.

I disagree, computer rpg's are supposed to simulate the paper equivalents, it's like having a computer game version of Risk or some board game and then changing all the rules. Other games like shooters or action-adventure games are purely video games, so they fall into the different category.

Exactly, interfaces and graphics have overcome the technical limitations of the time and improved constantly. Want examples? Almost any decent game developed in year N+1 compared to any decent game developed in year N.

As I said I wasn't denying this, but graphics and interface issues were a technical limitation to keyboard control the memory limitations of computers in those days. But to confirm are you putting the dialogue/conversation system games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate into an "interface" category? My point was that beyond those late 90's titles their hasn't been much creative improvements to CRPG's, I won't deny graphics have improved but that doesn't make a better game.

 

[skuphundaku]

...what would be alternative be to not being ambitious? Making a simplistic game that didn't at least try to simulate pen & paper sessions in a computer game format? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

What I'm trying to say is that you give up on the "has to simulate P&P to the letter" requirement, then the developer can focus on how to work around the limitation of the computer not being able to improvise and, as a result, create a good game. Computer game developers should focus on developing good computer games, not good RPG systems, because you can have a good computer game with a sub-optimal RPG system and a shit computer game with a good RPG system. It's the same problem one encounters when you get movie critics or writers that bash games for games making shitty movies or books. Of course they make shitty movies and books. Games are not supposed to be movies or books just as how they're not supposed to be P&P RPGs.

I disagree, computer rpg's are supposed to simulate the paper equivalents, it's like having a computer game version of Risk or some board game and then changing all the rules. Other games like shooters or action-adventure games are purely video games, so they fall into the different category.

Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Exactly, interfaces and graphics have overcome the technical limitations of the time and improved constantly. Want examples? Almost any decent game developed in year N+1 compared to any decent game developed in year N.

As I said I wasn't denying this, but graphics and interface issues were a technical limitation to keyboard control the memory limitations of computers in those days. But to confirm are you putting the dialogue/conversation system games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate into an "interface" category? My point was that beyond those late 90's titles their hasn't been much creative improvements to CRPG's, I won't deny graphics have improved but that doesn't make a better game.

When I say "interface", I mean the entirety of the human-machine interface, so, yeah, dialogue systems are included. My distinction is more between '80s and early '90s games on one hand, which had clunky interfaces and whose graphics haven't aged well at all and late '90s and early '00s games on the other, which, IMHO, are still the pinnacle of interface systems and whose graphics have aged quite nicely. The only thing that was added since then and that I like is fully 3D "isometric" with adjustable camera interfaces (NWN2 + add-ons, AoD, Silent Storm etc.) As for graphics not making a better game, I agree, but I have to qualify that statement. If the graphics are at least decent (and everyone understands something else by "decent"), then the gameplay is what's important, but if the graphics don't pass that "decent" threshold, the game has to be pretty fucking fantastic in all other respects in order to have a snowball's chance in hell to make me play it... and, personally, I haven't encountered such an "ass ugly but with fantastic gameplay" game yet.

 

[Barghest]

That stuff does not even look like "artwork". More like stuff that people draw when they get bored at business meetings.

Isn't it 'grimdark' enough for you?

Anyway, I'm not going to fund this until more information is available.

 

[skuphundaku]

That stuff does not even look like "artwork". More like stuff that people draw when they get bored at business meetings.

Isn't it 'grimdark' enough for you?

Anyway, I'm not going to fund this until more information is available.

For now, you can't fund it even if you wanted to, given that the project hasn't gone live yet.

 

[majestik12]

Isn't it 'grimdark' enough for you?

It's too fucking grimdark nextgen popamole bullshit. Not pledging until they provide samples of proper old-shool hardcore oldfag art.

 

[UnusuallyRuthless]

...what would be alternative be to not being ambitious? Making a simplistic game that didn't at least try to simulate pen & paper sessions in a computer game format? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

What I'm trying to say is that you give up on the "has to simulate P&P to the letter" requirement, then the developer can focus on how to work around the limitation of the computer not being able to improvise and, as a result, create a good game. Computer game developers should focus on developing good computer games, not good RPG systems, because you can have a good computer game with a sub-optimal RPG system and a shit computer game with a good RPG system. It's the same problem one encounters when you get movie critics or writers that bash games for games making shitty movies or books. Of course they make shitty movies and books. Games are not supposed to be movies or books just as how they're not supposed to be P&P RPGs.

I disagree, computer rpg's are supposed to simulate the paper equivalents, it's like having a computer game version of Risk or some board game and then changing all the rules. Other games like shooters or action-adventure games are purely video games, so they fall into the different category.

I disagree with your disagreement. PnP rules are not designed for computers, they are designed for human interpreters. They are not just "fun" or "tactical", they have to be efficient. Efficient for a human to compute by hand. This is backwards. I'm not saying go FPS or RTwP, or anything of the sort that would detract from the gameplay experience, but think of things like LOS rules -- you can compute them in a much more detailed level on a computer. Some things are just impractical for humans to interpret by hand, and in a CRPG they simply don't have to.

Another interesting part is the AI. I wonder how many people that design CRPG systems actually have a background in fields such as combinatorial optimization, which is how you get the AI to take intelligent (sometimes even optimal) decisions. Oftentimes, you can sacrifice a minor detail and simplify the system sufficiently for the computer. It feels pretty much the same to the player, but becomes ridiculously simpler to exploit for an AI. This is probably WAY more important than the remark above, but my guess is most of these decisions are taken on an ad-hoc basis by game designers and then patched up afterwards. Then you get that minor detail, and some broken AI to go with it.

 

[CappenVarra]

Well, having to recruit pre-defined NPCs instead of creating the whole party is already massive decline, and other potentially worrying details of the pitch-in-progress pale in comparison... Still, dude will easily get a pledge from me based on previous work and that recent interview. Add full party creation (optional if you insist on pleasing the "but which of the characters is ME? why are party members soulless automatons? waaah" crowd) and I won't ask any other questions.

 

[Jasede]

You don't like anything!

 

[kaizoku]

Well, having to recruit pre-defined NPCs instead of creating the whole party is already massive incline... Of course, dude will easily get a pledge from me based on previous work and that recent interview. Add full party creation optional (for pleasing the "but I want to LARP my imaginary deaf mute friends into the game!!!111 and use my emo backstory!!! my imagination is better than your creativity! waaah" crowd) and it will please a wider audience.

looks better now

 

[Alex]

These news are pretty worrying, I must say. Hopefully they will expand on that card thing before the project goes live.

 

[artakserkso]

Just in case someone hasn't found the Kickstarter project page yet (which I would find hard to believe), here's the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/g3studios/21222236?token=b000a1ea

404 page not found

The real thing should be up and running soon anyway:

https://twitter.com/nealiios/status/270277087531769856

 

[artakserkso]

Aaand... IT'S LIVE!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/g3studios/thorvalla-an-rpg-by-guido-henkel

Someone beat me to, pledged second.

Is it just me or has the number of early bird pledges been halved?

 

[Murk]

I believe that a lot of people have invested a lot of money, and as a result their enthusiasm is slowly waning. Initially, there were not that many "games we want", and now, their apparent number is vast.

One can only invest so much.

Watching video now, seems a bit choppily put together but I don't really care about that so much as the actual content.

EDIT: Information is really, really scarce. I uhh... I don't really know what to think.

 

[Brother None]

Posted, pledged. Not as good a pitch as I'd hoped. Some concept art and some fairly vague ideas, basically, not a lot of eye-catching names, I don't think Henkel's name has the clout. Hope it gets to 1 million nonetheless, but...tricky.

Nabbed an early bird. The tiers aren't...too great either. $75 is first physical boxed copy option, then $100 is LE? Hmmm.

 

[Murk]

I'm sorry, I seem to be missing this Shaker reference -- was this in regards to the "Old School RPG" that the unattractive couple were supposedly designing?

 

[Murk]

Good to see some good-will.

What's the name of the thread?