Grimoire Class Discussion/Beginner's Tips

[buru5]

Recommending a Human Sage is somewhat questionable considering their abysmal mana regeneration.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Also, you'll have finished the game before you can multi-class a sage. (more than likely)

Zep--

 

[Agame]

Maybe Cleve's Son is already playing V2...

 

[Zep Zepo]

You mean Cleve's "wife's" "son"?

Zep--

 

[YES!]

Tips -

1) Sage is not needed...

Aeorb Sage is one of the best party members you can have. In fact here's what Cleve's son had to say about Sages

Spoiler

2. You need a Sage.

Every party must have a Sage. Sages are basically a jack-of-all-trades caster that has tons of utility early game and becomes just as badass as a necromancer or wizard late game. You can potentially even omit a necromancer, cleric, or wizard from your party and have your sage fill that position instead. Obviously, they won't be as effective as that actual role. But that extra slot would allow you to stick an additional fighter in your party. Make sure you get Detect Secret as one of your Sage's starting spells. An Aeorb or Human Sage is a must.

I covered this ad nauseam. If I had an 8 man party I would probably bring a sage, with my six man a sage brings nothing and would weaken the party. His advice is bad and wrong. The fact I was so successful with a six man party with no npcs on veteran and the encounter rate above rare proves it. They are not necessary. Period. If they were I would have needed one. It was clear from the getgo they weren't and aren't. The are also not the best. They are good for 8 man parties and weaken smaller parties. You want lethal blow and healing is meaningless since everyone can do it. Metalsmith has ancient knowledge. Bards get high middle skills to be the thief and can wear much sturdier equipment and have better survivability than a sage. In an 8 man party the second instrument user is nice.

I am thinking of a 4 man party and guess what? I certainly couldn't afford to bring a sage.

 

[Lord Andre]

Tips -

1) Sage is not needed...

Aeorb Sage is one of the best party members you can have. In fact here's what Cleve's son had to say about Sages

Spoiler

2. You need a Sage.

Every party must have a Sage. Sages are basically a jack-of-all-trades caster that has tons of utility early game and becomes just as badass as a necromancer or wizard late game. You can potentially even omit a necromancer, cleric, or wizard from your party and have your sage fill that position instead. Obviously, they won't be as effective as that actual role. But that extra slot would allow you to stick an additional fighter in your party. Make sure you get Detect Secret as one of your Sage's starting spells. An Aeorb or Human Sage is a must.

I covered this ad nauseam. If I had an 8 man party I would probably bring a sage, with my six man a sage brings nothing and would weaken the party. His advice is bad and wrong. The fact I was so successful with a six man party with no npcs on veteran and the encounter rate above rare proves it. They are not necessary. Period. If they were I would have needed one. It was clear from the getgo they weren't and aren't. The are also not the best. They are good for 8 man parties and weaken smaller parties. You want lethal blow and healing is meaningless since everyone can do it. Metalsmith has ancient knowledge. Bards get high middle skills to be the thief and can wear much sturdier equipment and have better survivability than a sage. In an 8 man party the second instrument user is nice.

I am thinking of a 4 man party and guess what? I certainly couldn't afford to bring a sage.

The bard cheese invalidates spellcasting altogether and brakes the game. If you refrain from touching musical instruments then the sage is a valuable class with the aeorb sage being probably the strongest spellcaster in the game.

It's probably more challenging to play on novice without touching musical instruments than to play on superhero and onslaught with a bard.

 

[Brood_Star]

What spellcasting does a Sage bring? I think the best part about being a Sage is honestly its access to Bard abilities, namely an instrument and lockpicking. If I were to bring a caster, it'd just be Wizard or a Thaum for Deep Freeze, but yes, casting in general is pretty invalidated anyway

If I were to make a party, knowing what I know now, it'd be something like this:

2 Saurian Berserkers
1 Ranger
1-2 Bard for instruments, second Bard vs Sage up to preference
1 Sage/Wizard
1 Thaum/Wizard

Every other slot filled with Rangers or Berserkers for Lethal Blow.

Race: doesn't matter. Good MP regen races for casters seems largely useless because rounds don't go long and otherwise you can rest it off regardless anyway. Bonus points largely don't matter, because attributes largely don't matter, skills are easily acquired, and HP doesn't matter too much. (HP for casters is probably the only big increase, going from eg 100=>140 is a noticeable 40% increase, unlike some mystery 30=>60 INT or DEV doing nothing, but if something is hitting your backline, they're probably dead anyway.) I don't think a Sage is necessary, because as I said somewhere, you can easily make do without utility spells for the first hour of the game. Detect Secret: covered by ridiculous base Scouting from NPCs. Mind Read: you find an improved Mind Read lv7 scroll early on which you can savescum with, and gold is limitless anyway, and the dialogue options are known, AND it doesn't even reveal all of them. The same with Locate Item. Cure Disease can be supplanted by the Leeches or Apples. Lack of Improved Identify can hurt on a blind playthrough, but someone says there's a spellbook somewhere. Other utility spells like Haste and Charm are also available to Wizards, but they actually come with an offensive spell that does something (Deep Freeze).

As for as I can tell, the name of the game wrt character creation is basically Lethal Blow and Instruments, and the rest largely doesn't matter.

 

[Morblot]

What spellcasting does a Sage bring? I think the best part about being a Sage is honestly its access to Bard abilities, namely an instrument and lockpicking. If I were to bring a caster, it'd just be Wizard or a Thaum for Deep Freeze, but yes, casting in general is pretty invalidated anyway

Loads of utility spells: detect secret, locate item, mindread, improved identify etc.

Not saying that other casters can't get these; I just don't know when or if they have to scribe them from books.

 

[Lord Andre]

My case for aeorb sage would be:

1. Gets access to cure disease earlier than a cleric, access to all cleric spells and twice the manapool.
2. Only caster that gets improved identify.
3. Can cast mindread at high levels do to super large manapool.
4. Naturally high scribe for late game spellbooks.
5. After you teach him his first nuke from a spellbook he instantly becomes a better nuker than the other spellcasters because of huge manapool.
6. Does not fizzle constantly like the thaumaturge does.
7. Starts with points in lockpick so you can replace ranger with another saurian zerker.
8. Large amount of skill gain.
9. Good starting special ability.
10. Quality of life utility spells.
11. Large manapool so he can max cast and keep active the pre-combat buff spells like armorplate.

The only draw back is that he's weak offensively until you teach him a nuke but even then he has cc he can do.

As far wizard/thaumaturge go I consider them worse than a necromancer. The necro also starts slow but later on he gets natural access to alot of "panic button" spells for when your in a tight spot.

Lastly the fizzle rate on thaumaturges makes them ridiculously unreliable. Not to mention the very rare but possible moment when they backfire a nuke and turn half your party into jolly rogers.

These are just observations from my own playtime. It's very possible I'm missing something but there you go.

 

[Brood_Star]

I don't know what dictates fizzle rate, but common wisdom would suggest it's the pink higlighted skill. I've no idea if Thaums really do fizzle more than other casters, but I'll take your word for it.

Also, I'm on a different PC right now, but doesn't the sage get terrible muscle skill gains? I remember something like 2/2/28 being the max I obtained on a levelup, so I doubt he can be your full-time lockpicker. I've not experimented a lot with most of the caster spells because I'm too busy mashing A and the occasional CC, but casting in general seems not-worth-it (obv bias), and furthermore, the fact that a lot of the powerful spells are gated at high levels (i.e. anything lv10+ I consider unobtainable) makes me think that Necros aren't much worth it.

The Aeorb Sage does indeed come with Mind Flay, which I forgot about, but you also need to sink every single bonus point into speed to bring it up from 25 to a respectable amount. I don't remember my Sage having an exceptionally large mana pool, but I dumped all my characters for NPCs (who have 2-5x the mana pool any created char can have). It also has equipment restrictions.

Is there a Deep Freeze spellbook somewhere? Or, what nukes did you teach him (lightning bolt?) If so, I suppose the Sage is the best of the bunch by virtue of simply being able to play an instrument

EDIT: I also forgot to mention you can just teach all the utility spells to any caster of your choice, because they're all easily robbed from Gorlo. Also, looking at olef's screenshots on the previous page, a 100 DEV level 7 sage comes at 160-180 mana, and lv3 Rosy/Ragnhilda start with about 280 mana.

 

[Furcas]

The fizzles on thaumaturge make me think alchemistry isn't functioning as their casting skill for nukes. Sorcery works fine and so does necromancy. Litany too. I had regular fizzles on thaumaturge too.

Wizard gets a smattering of utility and a lot of offensive spells. I tried one in my party with the thaumaturge and liked them. The thaumaturge got deep freeze earlier.

 

[Morblot]

The sage is good, but indeed his skill point gains make it impossible to teach him a decent level of Inspection. I wouldn't want to pick door locks without it.

By the way, the thief seems to be completely worthless. If I started again now I'd take another ranger instead and make him my lockpicker.

Edit: lockpicking increases on its own, no need to waste skill points on it.

 

[mwnn85]

--- adjusted ---
2 Saurian Berserkers
1 Ranger (Drake?)
1 Wolfin Cleric
1 Bard (Durendil?)
1 Aeorb Sage
1 Feyfolk Thaum
1 Vamphyr Necro

I normally try and limit myself to one of each race.
For various reasons I'm finding that there's really only one party that's worth fielding in Grimoire.
Anything else is sub-par garbage, impractical or not allowed.

Tried to roll a Leonar Bard - thought it was appropriate since they have Battle Cry - but it seemed impossible. I've seen the character charts now which confirm it.
Just used a Durendil instead.
Ideally like to swap out the Ranger for a Rhattu Thief and quickly change into Assassin.
Again not happening...

I think there needs to be lots of adjustments as to which professions get which skills. Why does a Sage get Music + Inspection + Lockpicking for example.
And can't those two latter skills be combined?
Most of the chests fire out garbage. I thought the chest in the Catacombs might have had something special but no - another generic one.

 

[Morblot]

There are very worthy chests later in the game.

 

[mwnn85]

There are very worthy chests later in the game.

But are they worth taking a Thief along for?
When you can cast Knock Knock instead?
Should a Ranger & Sage even get Lockpicking?

 

[Lord Andre]

I don't use bards, musical instruments, or npcs at all so spellcasting plays a larger role in my party.

I also pump speed on all my spellcasters because in certain fights I want them to use wands in the first round for an alpha strike to kill a monster with naughty abilities.

The meager points of mana that devotion brings is not worth pumping in my opinion.

First worthy damage spell I taught my sage was firestorm from the sky barge.

It's true that a sage would be a gimp lockpicker. You could make up for it with knock-knock and breaking doors with force. It depends if you think is worth dumping ranger or thief for another zerker.

 

[Brood_Star]

But are they worth taking a Thief along for?
When you can cast Knock Knock instead?
Should a Ranger & Sage even get Lockpicking?

Well, there are only two physical skills worth raising without Assassin/Jester: Inspection (and a bit of Lockpicking), and Iron Hands. And since Iron Hands doesn't proc Lethal Blow (for me, at least), it doesn't leave much choice. I don't really bother thinking about it any more than that, but it is probably true that lockpicking isn't worth it.

 

[luj1]

The fact I was so successful with a six man party with no npcs on veteran and the encounter rate above rare

Which party was that? I assume 2 Saurian Berserkers, Fey Bard, Wolfin Thaumaturge ...?

 

[Furcas]

Ironhand with lethal blows and by extension the ability ironhand grants, powerstrike, only work if you cheat an assassin with cheat engine on the roll or recruit NPCs.

It's quite broken at the moment. Or intended but I'm not sure why that would be.

 

[YES!]

Tips -

1) Sage is not needed...

Aeorb Sage is one of the best party members you can have. In fact here's what Cleve's son had to say about Sages

Spoiler

2. You need a Sage.

Every party must have a Sage. Sages are basically a jack-of-all-trades caster that has tons of utility early game and becomes just as badass as a necromancer or wizard late game. You can potentially even omit a necromancer, cleric, or wizard from your party and have your sage fill that position instead. Obviously, they won't be as effective as that actual role. But that extra slot would allow you to stick an additional fighter in your party. Make sure you get Detect Secret as one of your Sage's starting spells. An Aeorb or Human Sage is a must.

I covered this ad nauseam. If I had an 8 man party I would probably bring a sage, with my six man a sage brings nothing and would weaken the party. His advice is bad and wrong. The fact I was so successful with a six man party with no npcs on veteran and the encounter rate above rare proves it. They are not necessary. Period. If they were I would have needed one. It was clear from the getgo they weren't and aren't. The are also not the best. They are good for 8 man parties and weaken smaller parties. You want lethal blow and healing is meaningless since everyone can do it. Metalsmith has ancient knowledge. Bards get high middle skills to be the thief and can wear much sturdier equipment and have better survivability than a sage. In an 8 man party the second instrument user is nice.

I am thinking of a 4 man party and guess what? I certainly couldn't afford to bring a sage.

The bard cheese invalidates spellcasting altogether and brakes the game. If you refrain from touching musical instruments then the sage is a valuable class with the aeorb sage being probably the strongest spellcaster in the game.

It's probably more challenging to play on novice without touching musical instruments than to play on superhero and onslaught with a bard.

Its probably more challenging to play on novice with one character that doesn't cast spells. So? Instruments provide the only non consumable cc that can be applied before enemies act. Early game this is great, but mid game when there are groups of ninjas that can kill half your party if they act it is nice to know you can cc at least one. The only use spellcatsers are is for aoeing weak groups or high DD of ST if you can eat their hits.

What level does Sage get Deep Freeze compared to the other classes that get it? What are you basing a Sage being the most powerful off of specifically? Because I highly disagree.

 

[YES!]

The fact I was so successful with a six man party with no npcs on veteran and the encounter rate above rare

Which party was that? I assume 2 Saurian Berserkers, Fey Bard, Wolfin Thaumaturge ...?

No, 1 metalsmith, 2 berserkers, bard, Thaumaturge, and Necro. Both my casters are fairies. My other classes were based on what seemed to be getting the most bonus points with a focus on higher speed. I made the party before the multiplier information was listed (anywhere I knew of at least) so did my own experiments on how to get high bonus points. My goal for the party was speed and more speed to act first and lethal blow, with the bard being 4 speed points behind my slowest melee. Metal Smith to me is like a sage to you guys. He gets lethal blow and ancient history/customs (whatever that skill is called) and can wield the fire sword and in general is as effective as my berserkers but casts spells a lot sooner. He is the real Templar to me.

 

[Lord Andre]

Its probably more challenging to play on novice with one character that doesn't cast spells. So? Instruments provide the only non consumable cc that can be applied before enemies act. Early game this is great, but mid game when there are groups of ninjas that can kill half your party if they act it is nice to know you can cc at least one. The only use spellcatsers are is for aoeing weak groups or high DD of ST if you can eat their hits.

What level does Sage get Deep Freeze compared to the other classes that get it? What are you basing a Sage being the most powerful off of specifically? Because I highly disagree.

My point was that spellcasters aren't weak they just look weak because the bard class is broken.

The case for aeorb sage is that it can do a lot of things very well without being a one trick pony deep freeze bot.

 

[Lady_Error]

My point was that spellcasters aren't weak they just look weak because the bard class is broken.

It isn't really anymore. Music points go up slowly, Halcyonic Lyre is now Cone of Cold. Only the resistances of some tougher monsters against sleep/paralysis/charm instruments still need to be adjusted.

 

[Furcas]

Casters are weak in my opinion because they act at the end of a round when casting, don't get extra attacks when doing so (and at least one can fizzle), and because of lethal blows. It's kind of silly being able to 1 man a boss when your lethal blows is up high enough.

 

[mondblut]

It's kind of silly being able to 1 man a boss when your lethal blows is up high enough.

Tell that to Siegfried, Heracles or Gilgamesh. They needed no caster backup, only a mule to carry their shit along.