Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Grey Goo - Now wobbling on your Hard Drive

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by Morgoth, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. Make America Great Again Johannes Arcane

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    It's vastly less complex in DoW2 so the decisions you make are p. simple.

    You still didn't answer the "what is strategy" question.

    Well, SupCom at least tried to get away from it - but the cost is that the units in it are just boring. Most of the time you don't have much reason to zoom close enough that you'd ever see anything but icons of them! Not saying it has to be that way necessarily, but it ended up p. flawed in that case at least.

    And while it's not as tough to master the control scheme as in SC:BW, TA or such, it still needs a lot of that damn clicking regardless.
     
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  2. thesheeep Arcane

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    True, SupCom was surely flawed. But I really loved many of its ideas for automatization of meaningless clicking.
    Also true that microing units in combat was less present. But that was mostly due to the scale, pretty much impossible to micro THAT much once battles start to be all around/extremely big.

    Instead the general management of scale became the clickfest there.
    An RTS with the automatization features of SupCom, but a smaller scale and more interesting units (I did like the commanders, though) would be pretty neat (for me).
     
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  3. Dayyālu Arcane

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    Very tabletop'ish. It's a nice system, truth be told, as long as some rules are followed. However, it would switch the focus from targeting to movement, to let players send the less valuable/vulnerable troops in the fray.

    I would have liked to see it in action, though.



    On the regards of "clicking", the point made by Johannes (Attention span is a limited resource, and a player must choose what to sacrifice and what to focus upon) makes me think about one of my favourite RTS hybrids: Battlezone 1998. Sure, the initial release had subpar AI and the unit limits are harsh (we are talking of "battles" of 12-20 units tops) but the simple fact that the player is a physical unit in the battlefield (and one of the most effective ones, depending on individual skill) makes it quite peculiar during a match.

    Resource management can't be microed. You can barely choose a zone where to build a resource silo and let the AI eco units do their thing, because no one is insane enough to micro harvesters while the enemy is rushing you.

    Direct combat can't be microed, bar for targeting priorities through combat groups. It's kinda difficult to manage "dancing" units and the like when you are getting shot/sniped and you are a physical presence on the battlefield. Often secondary attacks are simply "Attack from that direction and hope the AI manages not to screw it up too bad".

    Strategy (what to build, where to place it, expansion routes) is paramount, while on the tactical level it's mostly squad composition and personal skill at combat that choose a winner: sure, someone can be a master pilot, but if he can't place correctly his harvesters, replace losses or choose the right units he's dead. On the other hand, a good pilot can overcome a master planner through direct skill.

    The point is, even if you force and give to someone tools to avoid microing, if there is even a limited advantage to gain from it people will take it and micro as hard as they can because it's optimal: the only way to avoid it is to build a game that simply requires that the attention/energy given to microing is given instead to something else: in the case of Battlezone 1998, direct combat.

    And it's 1000 posts on the 'Dex! Shame! SHAME! SHAME!
     
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  4. thesheeep Arcane

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    I've seen worst 1000. posts ;)
     
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  5. Aothan Magister

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    there have been many types of claims, yet what makes for a 'vastly less complex' economic model has not been clarified; the strategic decisions for resources in Dow II are intrinsic to tactics, and by extension a more complex combat system and all therein, one has to deliberate on multiple areas across a map and extended strategies based around available resource capabilities. It seems the very difference is often being understated to say that clicking on buildings and resource gathering units produces much greater complexity, it is kind of ironic when we explore these differences because this is not strategy (for reference the question is probably about what tactics means - which are a subset and thus reciprocal component of comprehensive strategy), this is 'micro' (mechanical) skills for managing resources. The key difference is the focus in DoW II shifts from this skill based aspect (which is not always strategic) to the planning and tactics involved for resource management
     
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  6. Make America Great Again Talby Arcane Patron

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  7. Make America Great Again Markman da Blitz master Patron

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  9. Make America Great Again Markman da Blitz master Patron

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    check ze pm in a minute
     
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  10. Make America Great Again Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    started playan dis

    only went through the first two maps so far but this game doesnt seem particularly compelling doesnt it
     
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  11. thesheeep Arcane

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    As so many, suffers from trying too hard to be like C&C or SC2 instead of something new.
    It's too slow for SC2 crowd, but still relies heavily on microing instead of general strategy so people like me (who loathe microing if it could be automated) are bored after a while as well.
    So in the end, its microing annoys some while it isn't enough/fast enough for others. Not sure who they were aiming to please.

    I found it fun to play through campaign and skirmishes (and some MP) for a while due to how different the factions play.
    So if you're looking for some fun, this is it (so get it when cheap).
    If you're looking for an endless time sink with many people online and ladders, etc. Eh... probably not. If it had a large player base, I'm sure some would find it fun mastering the different factions, but with the few people who play it (peak yesterday, 46 people according to Steamspy) - who'd bother?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  12. Make America Great Again Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    i don't see any c&c in this, but plenty of very badly watered down starcraft to be sure

    and holy shit this game is just so unimaginative

    here's a small unit that shoots!
    here's a medium unit that shoots better!
    here's a big unit that shoots best!
    here's an air defence unit that shoots planes!
    here's an artillery unit that shoots aoe!

    where are my tesla troopers and flame tanks for the love of god seriously now
     
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  13. thesheeep Arcane

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    Certainly right about that :lol:

    Though what I found worse (as I remember, at least) is how hard those are to distinguish.
    I used to play Goo and Beta mostly, and with those I found most units looked so much alike I had trouble telling them apart in the heat of battle.

    I mean... just look:
    https://www.greybox.com/greygoo/en/info/factions/beta/
    https://www.greybox.com/greygoo/en/info/factions/goo/
    I'd rather have had less units that are more varied.

    Now, all mocking aside, I really wouldn't say it is a bad game.
    But it is a "meh" game that wants to compete with the best directly - smells like mismanagement and failure of vision during development.
     
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  14. Dayyālu Arcane

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    Petroglyph ran out of ideas long ago. Universe at War (anyone has any idea where to buy it nowadays?) was roughly similar, even if I enjoyed more the soundtrack (ironically enough) and the weird factions. Grey Goo is a late 90ies early 2000 game thrown out in the RTS-averse market. Bound to failure. No mistery they went up developing 8 Bit Armies, a literal C&C clone with less players than OpenRA. Tbh, OpenRAhas probably 300% the players Grey Goo and 8Bit armies have together.

    How's the expansion, was it something worthwile?
     
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  15. thesheeep Arcane

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    Tampere, Finland
    It adds a faction, and some story missions for that.
    Not sure if I'd get it after having played the normal game already. But if I hadn't played the game before, I'd go for the Definite Edition that includes it already.
     
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  16. CthuluIsSpy Arcane

    CthuluIsSpy
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2014
    Parrots:
    1,906
    Location:
    On the internet, writing shit posts.
    Its ok I guess. The bonus mission has no enemy units and just involves rushing to destroy these special structures.
    The new race is...weird. Not sure how it works. Its certainly one of the more unique factions, but I don't like the unit designs.
     
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  17. Make America Great Again Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

    Darth Roxor
    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Parrots:
    1,864,588
    Location:
    Djibouti
    aaaaand uninstalled

    what a shitty fucking game
     
    • Despair Despair x 1
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  18. Valky Educated

    Valky
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Parrots:
    241
    Location:
    Alcatraz
    I saw this and all I thought was "Nowhere near as good as Forged Alliance"
     
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