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Gothic II Gold/Night of the Raven

Zomg

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How do the stats in Night of the Raven work, as opposed to Gothic II? I see lots of swords in the shops that have huge values for minimum strength that would be unreachable in the original Gothic II - what's the deal, what was changed? The Gothic II Gold manual is just a quickstart, and there are a paucity of English resources for the game online.
 

Atrokkus

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The core of the system is unchanged, for the most part. I, for one, didn't notice any significant difference in combat. Some stat shifts were there, but I hardly noticed that.

You know what? Just play the game, don't mind those changes and shit. For god's sake, this is an RPG, so why bother with all the stats and shit, unless you are really having trouble killing stuff.
 

Zomg

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Of coure I'll have trouble killing stuff - it's Gothic. I want to make a Fire Mage, which means I have to judge at what point I should stop raising my Chapter I survival skills and switch to mana, and I have no way to guess when that should be. It's entirely possible to fuck yourself in Gothic II with a squib character, and I'd like to avoid that if there's a concise explanation of what the changes are.
 

Elwro

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It's just that after a while 1 XP no longer gets you 1 stat point - the price can go up to 5 XPs/1stat point in the endgame.
This means that in the beginning one level can buy you the Lockpicking skill or 10 points of DEX, but after a while one level can still buy you the same skill but only 5 (or even less) points of DEX. My conclusion was to buy skills later in the game.
This also means that it's not too reasonable to make stat-increasing potions / read stat-increasing tablets early in the game. Save them for later.
The weapon requirements may seem insane, but you'll quickly see they aren't. A small detail is that you can find a new type of equipment - belts, which can e.g. boost stats by 10 points.
 

Dhruin

Liturgist
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Aug 15, 2003
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There are also tablets you find from the old race that raise your stats and, of course, the game is substantially longer with the expansion so there is more opportunity to raise levels.
 

Crichton

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Of coure I'll have trouble killing stuff - it's Gothic. I want to make a Fire Mage, which means I have to judge at what point I should stop raising my Chapter I survival skills and switch to mana, and I have no way to guess when that should be. It's entirely possible to fuck yourself in Gothic II with a squib character, and I'd like to avoid that if there's a concise explanation of what the changes are.

For a mage, I recommened 30 str and 30 two-handed weapons or 30 dex and 30 bow, you can raise them later, but that will allow you to do everything you need to in chapter 1 including beat up Raul and Fenster.
 

Atrokkus

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Hmm.. two handed? I always stick to one-handed. It was proven that one-handed are by far more effective in the game. Lots of pluses outnumber those of two-handers, hands down. Plus, it's generally easier to raise onehander skill, and requires less strength. The only real significant pro that twohanders have is the range, however I haven't really had any problems keeping orcs or raptors at range with a onehander either, if using side-strikes.
So if you're mage, stick with onehanders.

Mage is, indeed, quite hard to play in the beginning. Frankly, I never liked mages in Gothic. They kind of don't fit with my view of magic user in general, and I don't find them particularily fun to roleplay. Probably, because Im spoiled by DnD games where mages were much much better, by all means. There you really could specialize in magic only and become immensely powerful, here in gothic you have to walk the battle-mage path, which i don't like at all.

However, with NoTR mages are indeed immensely powerful all by themselves (even without summons) due to the uber spells (you'll see them later), but that's only in the end stages.

Don't get me wrong: it's tnot tht I don't like the challenge of the mage, I just don't like that there is not much potential in spells, and they are so totally limited in terms of diversity: basically, just attack spells and summons. No invisibility, no levitation etc. Mages kinda feel.... truncated, abridged, catrated if you will. Ideal for those who love playing battle-mages, no doubt.
 

Zomg

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Well, I'm not a fan of battlemages either, and in fact I think videogame mages are almost always shit because they just make you into artillery with a few cliched, easily implemented spells thrown in like invisibility, but I played a mercenary in my original playthrough so I figure playing a mage will give me the most markedly different experience. Paladins just seem like more boring versions of the mercenary, since they're sturdier but don't pack as much of a punch.
 

Atrokkus

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Mercenary (and Paladin for that matter) proved to be the most enjoyable class for me to play, though usually, in most rpgs, I roleplay primarily mages or other psionic characters.
 

Zomg

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Playing a mage in Gothic II is hideously annoying, I'm finding. The game is balanced to make mages tedious - in Chapter 2, it takes seven fireballs to kill an Orc Warrior (no more, no less, no variation). It's very unlikely that you'll have the mana for more than 4-5 fireballs at best, so that means you have to fight every orc by throwing an entire mana bar's worth of fireballs from the absolute maximum engagement range, then quickly drink a mana potion, then fire off the remainder of the orc's HP. If you fumble a key, or a Fireball misses, you get chopped in half on the orc's first attack and you reload. This is profoundly boring, and there are approximately fifteen million orc warriors in Chapter 2. On top of all that the Fire Mage skills are agonizingly expensive in terms of SP, putting mages even further behind. I'm ready to throw this Fire Mage in the trash and just make another Mercenary or a Paladin melee basher.
 

Oarfish

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I didn't think you were meant to fight the orc in chapter 2? They seem far too tasty. I just run through the buggers using a speed potion and stick to killing sickly looking wolves.

I guess it depends if you have done the hidden valley stuff - you can get higher level spells there.
 

Crichton

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Hmm.. two handed? I always stick to one-handed. It was proven that one-handed are by far more effective in the game. Lots of pluses outnumber those of two-handers, hands down. Plus, it's generally easier to raise onehander skill, and requires less strength.

Here's the weapon list for NotR,
http://www.worldofgothic.com/gothic2/?go=addonwaffen

Two handers do significantly more damage at the higher levels and since HP loss is calculated from a differential (damage - resistance), it's a lot of benefit against tougher enemies. This makes a huge difference to a mage, since they don't get ore blades and have to make do with things like the orc slicer and dragon slicer. One handed weapons are just plain inferior in G2:NotR, just like they were in vanilla gothic II. The only reason to ever take 1-handed weapons is for dex-based swords for an archer (or for people that like it, for Beliar's Claw).
 

Atrokkus

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Hmm.. indeed, I'm mixing things up with the vanilla here. However, as a fighter class, I did the best with one-handers -- the class-special and beliar's claw types, of course. And speaking of Beliar's claw, it's hands down the best blade in the game, though it may not seem so at first glance. The chance of more damage is quite high and makes a huge difference in combat.

In Gothic 1, and even in Gothic 2 (w/o NoTR) however, everyone benefited more from the onehanders, that I know for certain. They might not get a land a lot of a hit, but they are muhc faster, which basically enables you to stun-lock ANY opponent, save the boss-type ones.
 

Zomg

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Oarfish said:
I didn't think you were meant to fight the orc in chapter 2? They seem far too tasty. I just run through the buggers using a speed potion and stick to killing sickly looking wolves.

The way I recall my mercenary, I was able to kill single orcs with only a moderate risk of death at that point, although mercs have another armor upgrade by the time you go to the Valley.

I'm considering restarting this Fire Mage and going for a standard strength slugger build (Is it possible to get a weapon skill over 60% after only training it to 34% with tablets?) and wait for the really high-circle spells before I start depending on magic. Or, do dex-based swords get damage bonuses from strength or dexterity? That 120-damage, 60-dex sword you can buy off the guy in the harbor looks pretty tempting. The character I have now got thirty strength and thirty in one-handers, but that level of investment is nearly pointless - it's not good enough for anything magic has problems with.
 

Crichton

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I'm considering restarting this Fire Mage and going for a standard strength slugger build (Is it possible to get a weapon skill over 60% after only training it to 34% with tablets?) and wait for the really high-circle spells before I start depending on magic. Or, do dex-based swords get damage bonuses from strength or dexterity? That 120-damage, 60-dex sword you can buy off the guy in the harbor looks pretty tempting. The character I have now got thirty strength and thirty in one-handers, but that level of investment is nearly pointless - it's not good enough for anything magic has problems with.

You can always train after raising a stat with tablets, but it's stupid because the point costs for training are progressive, going from 10 to 30 and then using 24 points worth of tablets costs 20 LP, doing the reverse (training from 34 to 54) costs 40.

Dex-based swords still gain their damage bonus from strength, making them only useful as backup for an archer (or archer/mage).

30 str and a 30 weapon skill will get you past anything in chapter 1, in chapter 2 it's still useful for minor fights, saving mana (which is expensive) for the big boys, eventually if you want to fight as a mage, you'll want to increase your strength, but you can make due with only training the skill up to 30 (plus tablets to hit ~60).

As for fireball, it's garbage, killing an orc or warg with it takes forever, Ice Lance is a much better value.
 

Zomg

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You can always train after raising a stat with tablets, but it's stupid because the point costs for training are progressive, going from 10 to 30 and then using 24 points worth of tablets costs 20 LP, doing the reverse (training from 34 to 54) costs 40.

No, bad sentence structure on my part - I meant, "Are there enough tablets to get a weapon skill above 60% if you only use SP training to get it to 34%?" That's not including the +5% manuals and the +2% one-hander/two-hander bonuses, so I guess I mean are there 19% points worth of tablets?

Unfortunately I didn't know Ice Lance had been added to the game... Not having a manual for GIIG is a pain. Hopefully I have a pre-Fireball save left.
 

Crichton

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Jul 7, 2004
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http://www.worldofgothic.com/gothic2/

if you scroll down and look under magic in the NotR section in the frame on the left, it'll list all the new spells, of course you have nothing to compare them to because the spell list for vanilla G2 wasn't updated to show all the changes in the expansion, your best bet is to read the forums at RPGdot.
 

NoisyKillerHPB

Scholar
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Dec 15, 2005
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a pillar of skulls
I just got G2G, and only have played it for a couple of minutes. It seems really hard, I have to go back and rest after killing a wolf or two goblins, and a spider-thing almost killed me. And the interface is really dated...anyways can you guys tell me some things you think i should know cause the manual doesn't tell me much. (the shit that makes you go "fuck I wish I knew that 2 weeks ago)
 

Elwro

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If you think the game is too hard, the first thing would be to fiddle with gothic.ini - you can e.g. enable keys for sipping potions during combat there.
You should also check which of the control modes you like best. For me the controls from Gothic 1 were perfect and I didn't touch the mouse for the whole game.
And don't play as a mage the first time through...
 

Atrokkus

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enable keys for sipping potions during combat there.
Which is dumb.

You should also check which of the control modes you like best. For me the controls from Gothic 1 were perfect and I didn't touch the mouse for the whole game.
I agree.
THough you must be exaggerating: you had to touch the mouse to look around.
 

Zomg

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Oct 21, 2005
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I'm still playing my game here and there. I eventually decided to go back and do all the stuff on the add-on continent, pumped my weapon skills up, made strength potions and got the pirate armor, letting me feature in melee. Once I got to Chapter 3 and aquired the Ice Block and Storm spells I started feeling more magey, though. I'm dicking around in Chapter 5 now - the dragons seemed much harder with the add-on/add-in. I had to sit there summoning a little strike force of Raven zombies with my Beliar rune to distract the dragons just so that I could manage to get to melee with them for a few slashes before being knocked away.

I think the melee combat in Gothic gets a bad rap. It seems extraordinarily primitive at first glance, given the hit-only-focused enemy system and the awkward keyboard control, but it adds up pretty well, especially for a first playthrough when you're still discovering the "fighting style" of the various enemies. I hope that Gothic 3 doesn't go whole-hog for slippery, generic 3D melee combat like Fable's.
 

Atrokkus

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I think the melee combat in Gothic gets a bad rap. It seems extraordinarily primitive at first glance, given the hit-only-focused enemy system and the awkward keyboard control, but it adds up pretty well, especially for a first playthrough when you're still discovering the "fighting style" of the various enemies. I hope that Gothic 3 doesn't go whole-hog for slippery, generic 3D melee combat like Fable's.
My sentiments exactly.
Basically, what I wish to see in Gothic 3 is the same old control system but with stats having more effect on combat (but not defying the aciton element, of course), and msot importantly, physics playing a huge part in combat (as in Oblivion, but hopefully, even better), that is if you forcefully hit, you might get knocked down or back, and so on.

And thoughj I had a lot of fun with warrior-type characters, I had no incentive to play a mage at all. The magic system is the huge Achiles' heel of Gothic. Awfully repetitive spells, basically just attack spells (just like in Oblivion), almost no utility/mystic spells. Summons do save the day sometimes, but again, not very creative.
I hope they dump the old system completely and make a good one in Gothic 3, but I highly doubt that for some reason.
 

Crichton

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Basically, what I wish to see in Gothic 3 is the same old control system but with stats having more effect on combat (but not defying the aciton element, of course), and msot importantly, physics playing a huge part in combat (as in Oblivion, but hopefully, even better), that is if you forcefully hit, you might get knocked down or back, and so on.

Personally I not only think the control system's inferior, but I really wish stats generally had less of an effect on combat. With everything being calculated on a differential, one weapon upgrade can take you from killing a monster in eight hits to killing it in three and one armor upgrade can take you right from dying in four hits to being damn near invulnerable.

I like Oblivion's controls and damage forumulas better, but both games have noticable problems with fighting multiple opponents, largely due to a lack of collision detection (though G2 is far worse about this). Oblivion moves a few steps in the right direction with stamina and staggering, but it's not enough, the effects ought to scale up to being knocked down outright to give a skilled individual a chance to knock someone down and turn on his companions.

The only place in G2 where I'd like to see stats have more of an effect is in blocking. The 'one size fits all' blocking creates some really absurd situations sometimes. My paladin now does ~400 damage with his two handed sword which will take an orc down with one hit, but if he's blocking, he takes no penalty for getting hit at all. He takes no damage, can't be knocked back, stunned, have his weapon torn from his grip, nothing. Obligius has better blocking and since the game isn't as dependant on blocking, fighting two opponents isn't such a death sentence.

Neither game comes close to offering the sort of combat that Jedi Outcast did, more's the pity.
 

Atrokkus

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Crichton, I generally agree. But still, I found the Gothic combat fun. In conjunction with solid roleplaying, combat's flaws were not glaring to me. Definately, in a full-combat game like Jedi:outcast/Academy there can be no compromise.
I enjoyed Jedi Outcast combat immensely, by the way. Really wanted the same stuff in KOTOR, actually. For some reason, I now can't accept any other way of whacking your enemies with a lightsaber.
 

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