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Bruma Hobo

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Dec 29, 2011
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I usually love games with short intros, long party creation screens, and open swim-or-sink gameplay. And this is why the first Might and Magic game infuriates me, because it certainly tried, but god, I hate it.

First of all, having only six classes to choose from in games with six party slots should be illegal, especially when all other choices like race or alignment seem almost cosmetic at first, and dump stats abound. Compare this to Wizardry, where you can pick from 4 base classes (leaving two character slots to experiment with), where character alignment immediately determines what kind of party you can build, and where class swapping mitigates the dump stats problem (IQ may not be useful for fighters, but it does matter if he wants to eventually become a samurai).

Then there's Sorpigal, which for no good reason feels like a monster infested hellhole instead of a town. It would not be a particularly offensive place, but unfortunately it's almost impossible to leave before hitting at least level 3 which can take a while, especially for first-time players. Combat is fun, but this initial part of the game places the player too close of the save point, gives food almost for free, and gives very few spells to play with... And as a tutorial it also fails, making the player fight almost impossible foes (like Sprites) naked and with no money, never letting him flee from combat, and even hiding chests for those who did not RTFM, for no good reason.

And then the game gives the player the choice to explore either the outside world or a dark dungeon... And against all common sense the game expects you to do the latter, monsters outside are beasts. OK, they're not that difficult, the game just tricks you into thinking that placing almost impossible ambushes three steps out of Sorpigal, what the hell... Most other random encounters are quite manageable, but the player will not figure it out easily. And did I mention it is almost impossible to flee from combat?
This may be my fault since I certainly enjoy the Ultima approach more (an open world to fully explore at once sprinkled with some easily avoidable encounters, opposed to the more challenging dungeons), but I don't think I'm the only one annoyed by this.

The game eventually becomes quite good once the initial grind is over, exploring different landscapes far away from save points to find caves, towns and castles is very entertaining, its combat doesn't get old with an ever-increasing amount of monsters and spells, and some early customization options like alignment and gender become more important... But seriously, fuck Sorpigal.
 

octavius

Arcane
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Bjørgvin
Disciples of Steel.

It has a pretty good character generation, even though it only has one more class than party members. Anyway, I don't really consider the character generation the beginning of the game, but rather preparing for the game.

But what makes the beginning so shitty is the way towns and shops are handled. Towns are quite large, and contain nothing that could not have been in a menu town instead, and "exploring" them is rather tedious. And in shops you don't get a list of prices, but have to check each item individually.
You get used to this, though, but I quit the game first time I tried it.

But then CRPG Addict raved about the game, and I had to try it again, and it turned out it was actually an excellent game, with some of the best CRPG combat ever. And I almost missed out on it due to to some parts of it being poorly designed...


Fallout 2.

It takes a long time to get interesting.
 
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Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,489
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Djibouti
Divinity 2. The first time I played it and saw Generic Starter Town, I immediately quit, thinking "eh, I'll get back to it later". Later kept getting postponed so much that eventually I uninstalled it and only tried again some 2 years later or whatever.
 

Darkman

Educated
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Jul 6, 2016
Messages
49
Fallout 2. Temple Trials is awful even though u can blow through it in like 3 mins.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Mass Effect

...when you realize you have to keep playing the game for ~40 hours.
 
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Grampy_Bone

Arcane
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Jan 25, 2016
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Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
Darklands

When the game opens you are given three adventure hooks, all of which are terrible:

A. Ask about rumors at the Inn -> This always leads to "There is nothing of interest going on, this town is peaceful" which isn't even true.

B. Ask the guilds for quests -> No rep means your chance of getting a quest is very low, and if you do it will be a shitty fetch quest.

C. Walk around the countryside looking for encounters -> Very bad idea, you'll just get eaten by wolves or extorted for what little money you start with.


The only thing you can really do in the beginning is:

Secret Option D. Kill bandits in the slums at night. This gives you money, weapon skills, and important reputation you need to actually do A through C.


Just getting this one tip about grinding bandits was enough to allow me to enjoy the game. Once you are killing stuff reliably the game gets super fun. It's funny because the devs even talk in the manual about how they were bored with Hack and Slash gameplay; so why did they make a game that starts with boring Hack and Slash? I feel like this was placeholder content they meant to go flesh out later but never got around to it. The Rumors and Gossip option is particularly egregious because it only seems to exist to tell you about where the current dragon and mine quests are. Nothing about bandits in the slums, evil lords, satanic villages, etc. Darklands is just horrible about signposting its content.
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
Definitely Fallout 2. It isn't too bad if you build a big dumb ape, but it doesn't lend itself well to other playstyles. Guns? Fuck you. Explosives/Thrown? Fuuuuck you. It doesn't even make sense to make your character all that intelligent/talky considering your background, ya know, if you care about those things...

Its the much better game, but its shitty beginning is about on par with Fallout 3.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,017
Pathfinder: Wrath
Isn't Deus Ex infamous for its starting zone? I never found it that awful though. D:OS1, Cyseal (the town) is ridiculously boring and drawn out. I was going to say Kotor 1, both the Harbinger and the first planet are awful, but the whole game isn't good, so.

There's also degrees of badness. Candlekeep, for example, isn't mind-numbingly terrible, the fights with the assassins are a nice change of pace and redeem it a bit, but it's up there. You can skip it though.


Mass Effect

...when you realize you have to play the rest of the game for ~40 hours.

I actually tried to replay it recently, no idea what came over me. I couldn't get past the Citadel, it's just hours upon hours of trudging through it, with very dry dialogue. The epitome of this is when that jelly thing wanted to preach and the officer told him that he needed a permit. The game tries to frame it as religious freedom vs ...censorship/the law, I guess, but it just comes off as forced, hilariously unideological and more like Youtube comments involving a stereotypical religious person and a village atheist.
 
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Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Obvious ones like Fallout 2 aside, I'm thinking about games where the beginning really gives you the wrong and poorer idea of what the game is really going to be about.

I think in Arcanum, Shrouded Hills does a good job; the reactivity with the small-time bandit is delightful, there's the basic steampunk feel with even a town robbery, the magic/technology divide, and plenty of little nooks and crannies. But the initial start before that is poor; the actual gameplay in the crash landing site is extremely boring, while the Arbalah quest seems a really weird thing to be the player's first quest and involves tedious back and forth.

KOTOR2 is also a weird one; there's a little bit of foreshadowing about the game's exploration of the Force, but the experience of captivity or a ship going down really isn't thematically relevant to the rest of the game, while the gameplay itself of course is horrendously boring. So not only is it a boring tutorial level, unlike Shrouded Hills or Piranha Bytes games' "initial pre-first town exploration", the game gives off the wrong cues about what are the best things about this game. Of course, it's down to copypasting KOTOR1's start...
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,017
Pathfinder: Wrath
Obvious ones like Fallout 2 aside, I'm thinking about games where the beginning really gives you the wrong and poorer idea of what the game is really going to be about.

Chrono Trigger, I guess? I wouldn't say the beginning is shit, but even the first time travel and prison escape after that don't give you an idea about what the game is going to be about in terms of story.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
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Jul 30, 2007
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Flowery Land
Being that this is in General RPG, I'll limit myself to that.

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne's opening in the hospital has excellent atmosphere, but the gameplay is terrible because you are shut out of half the mechanics that make the game fun (particularly as a magic character who can't learn any spells till the the first boss is dead), and are encouraged to use strategies that will never work elsewhere (free healing is readily abusable). Oh and the Director's Cut (which the English version is based on) adds a intro segment where it is quite easy to die instantly in your first encounters.

TES: Arena is similar in its starting dungeon hoses a lot of character types for no good reason. Mages are pretty boned here. Also another case of making the player accustomed to mercies that don't exist elsewhere (0% interrupt rest areas). Even more negatives for gimping you if you don't spend as long as possible inside the hell.

Temple of Elemental Evil's Homlet without Co8's signpost. Frankly even with it it's not fun after the first time.

Silent Storm: Sentinels is another case of moderately fun the first time, a pain in the ass the second. Yet another case with radically different class balance than the main game: Most classes are a lot worse without their needed equipment or allies. It's even worse if you didn't punch a door for 10 mins to get the SMG.
 

Bruma Hobo

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Dec 29, 2011
Messages
2,412
Isn't Deus Ex infamous for its starting zone? I never found it that awful though.
Is it? I thought Liberty Island was considered one of the best introductory levels ever, and I don't think the optional training stage counts.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,017
Pathfinder: Wrath
Is it? I thought Liberty Island was considered one of the best introductory levels ever, and I don't think the optional training stage counts.

No idea, I've just heard that people can't get past it when they try to replay it out of boredom. I never had that problem though.
 

pippin

Guest
Isn't Deus Ex infamous for its starting zone?

HOW? It has every gameplay element in the game crammed into one level! I'd say it's a great example of level design. However, what happens here is that it suffers from "demoitis" and the following levels are pretty meh in comparison.

Also m&m1 beggining was great, git gud. Number of classes is not as important as party slots imo, and 6 is just right.
 

Serious_Business

Best Poster on the Codex
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
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3,911
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Frown Town
Kotor 2. That entire telos segment is so drawn out and exhausting there are mods made to skip it entirely.

No way, Telos was pretty cool... felt like the devs were playing SS2 at the time and wanted to reproduce the experience. There's just something about being lost in the middle of dark space and having an AI trying to off you ; ultimately it all comes down to 2001 Space Odyssey I guess. I think it's a really good hook, although it doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. Which is why it was pretty good.
 

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
Kotor 2. That entire telos segment is so drawn out and exhausting there are mods made to skip it entirely.

No way, Telos was pretty cool... felt like the devs were playing SS2 at the time and wanted to reproduce the experience. There's just something about being lost in the middle of dark space and having an AI trying to off you ; ultimately it all comes down to 2001 Space Odyssey I guess. I think it's a really good hook, although it doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. Which is why it was pretty good.
The first time sure. But anytime after and it becomes so very very,very,very tedious.
 

Alkarl

Learned
Joined
Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
Kotor 2. That entire telos segment is so drawn out and exhausting there are mods made to skip it entirely.

No way, Telos was pretty cool... felt like the devs were playing SS2 at the time and wanted to reproduce the experience. There's just something about being lost in the middle of dark space and having an AI trying to off you ; ultimately it all comes down to 2001 Space Odyssey I guess. I think it's a really good hook, although it doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. Which is why it was pretty good.

Telos isn't the beginning area of KOTOR 2. That would be Paragus Mining Facility. Which, by the way, is pretty decent. BUT it is part of that opening sequence, so whatever. Telos and Citadel from ME 1 have a bit in common. Of the 2, Telos is the more merciful.
 

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
Kotor 2. That entire telos segment is so drawn out and exhausting there are mods made to skip it entirely.

No way, Telos was pretty cool... felt like the devs were playing SS2 at the time and wanted to reproduce the experience. There's just something about being lost in the middle of dark space and having an AI trying to off you ; ultimately it all comes down to 2001 Space Odyssey I guess. I think it's a really good hook, although it doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. Which is why it was pretty good.

Telos isn't the beginning area of KOTOR 2. That would be Paragus Mining Facility. Which, by the way, is pretty decent. BUT it is part of that opening sequence, so whatever. Telos and Citadel from ME 1 have a bit in common. Of the 2, Telos is the more merciful.
I lump them all together, until you can get a ship and star travelling galactically.
 

Arvennios

Novice
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
48
The first dungeon in Divine Divinity was tedious, boring and waay too big for what is basically a tutorial dungeon, many players never made it far in the game and quit because of that area.
 

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