Deus Ex Gnidrologist vs CyberP on Deus Ex

[CyberP]

On the main page of the 'Dex for a while now:
rpg codex > blaming and offensive idiots , the best

I'm one of you now. I've scaled down to your level.

 

[Alfons]

lend me a hand. Show me these contradictions of relevancy, except my reaction to your pointless observation about SS2 as that is entirely invalid.

I don't know wtf contradictions of relevancy are. I never wrote that phrase. Here are some contradictions though:
Insulting someone for laughing at you for being retarded:

I'm a retard

'K

Another stray sore ass. Wait your turn.

Acknowledging your own retardation:

I'm one of you now. I've scaled down to your level. Bearing these tags and seeing all the retardation can do a lot to one's mental functioning.

It was more explicit before, you said that the codex is retarded and you are now one of the dexers, you edited that out though.

As far as SS2 goes, riddle me this, how important are effects, animations, graphics etc. when it comes to making the shooting satisfying?

When bullets hit walls we now have ricochet sound effects.
Weapons have improved muzzle flashes, including dynamic light emitted.
There's also subtle camera shaking effects which make the guns feel more realistic and satisfying.
Weapon animations are given more frames, meaning they look smoother in motion.
Every weapon has new sound effects, which is good as the vanilla ones were underwhelming.
Obviously the gore furthers the sense of actually using weapons, as in they tear flesh, a chaingun rips enemies apart, and it makes things more visceral.
Explosion effects of the rocket launcher, shooting barrels, plasma effects, particle effects etc all make the weapons more satisfying.

Its all basically stuff a Doom sequel would ideally have.

You presented the above as advantages BD has over Doom in the shooting department. I believe your mod also has various graphical enhancements. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that it's pretty fucking important in your opinion.

I assumed it to be the latter because who the fuck would even make that point as a criticism as the differences are primarily engine-bound. SS2 could have had a little more polished shooting, but it could never have had the flashy animations of Bioshock, that slick high detail smoke that comes out of the revolver afterwards, high detail weapon models & muzzle flashes etc because all that shit is dictated by the engine alone.

That sounds like an excuse to me. If I tell you a fighter plane that existed in the 40s is worse than fighter jets we have today would you rebut that by saying that "well it was because of technology". I don't know maybe you would, but you can see that it's not even a fucking argument right? It's the reason why they're worse but that doesn't disprove the fact that they're fucking worse. This shit is exactly the same.

 

[CyberP]

Isn't this a special little gathering...

C'mon, just drop it, and your vendetta with it. There's been enough retardation here for one day. Holy shit.

 

[Alfons]

CyberP Did you post in the wrong thread or is it the actual your response to my post?
I suppose this is another one for the contradiction pile.
Ask elaboration on a point:

lend me a hand. Show me these contradictions of relevancy, except my reaction to your pointless observation about SS2 as that is entirely invalid.

Receive one using your own fucking rationale....
Reply with "just let it go motherfucker"

Isn't this a special little gathering...

C'mon, just drop it, and your vendetta with it. There's been enough retardation here for one day. Holy shit.

Profit.

 

[CyberP]

Your elaboration was retarded. It almost always is. I cannot reason with that. I've given up.

 

[Alfons]

Your elaboration was retarded. It almost always is. I cannot reason with that. I've given up.

This argument is literally half of the points you present when you say BD has better shooting than Doom.

 

[CyberP]

Disengage, disengage!

In the original post I already said that SS2 could have a little more polished shooting effects (by design). Regardless It could never be superior than BS' as fidelity of effects and such are bound by the engine. There'd be no point in Irrational adding animated rising smoke to the end of the guns (by design) in SS2 for example as it would have looked ridiculous (bound by engines of the time).

 

[Gnidrologist]

When bullets hit walls we now have ricochet sound effects.
Weapons have improved muzzle flashes, including dynamic light emitted.
There's also subtle camera shaking effects which make the guns feel more realistic and satisfying.
Weapon animations are given more frames, meaning they look smoother in motion.
Every weapon has new sound effects, which is good as the vanilla ones were underwhelming.
Obviously the gore furthers the sense of actually using weapons, as in they tear flesh, a chaingun rips enemies apart, and it makes things more visceral.
Explosion effects of the rocket launcher, shooting barrels, plasma effects, particle effects etc all make the weapons more satisfying.

So, besides the endless ''rebalancing'' shit that all ''typical modders'' do he adds his own popamoling and thinks that ''enhances the experience''. So hardcore, much taking a stand, wow.
As if anything listed above is any more relevant to bettering the gameplay than adding cinematic takedowns.
You could work at EM PR department, Cyber.

 

[T. Reich]

When bullets hit walls we now have ricochet sound effects.
Weapons have improved muzzle flashes, including dynamic light emitted.
There's also subtle camera shaking effects which make the guns feel more realistic and satisfying.
Weapon animations are given more frames, meaning they look smoother in motion.
Every weapon has new sound effects, which is good as the vanilla ones were underwhelming.
Obviously the gore furthers the sense of actually using weapons, as in they tear flesh, a chaingun rips enemies apart, and it makes things more visceral.
Explosion effects of the rocket launcher, shooting barrels, plasma effects, particle effects etc all make the weapons more satisfying.

So, besides the endless ''rebalancing'' shit that all ''typical modders'' do he adds his own popamoling and thinks that ''enhances the experience''. So hardcore, much taking a stand, wow.
As if anything listed above is any more relevant to bettering the gameplay than adding cinematic takedowns.
You could work at EM PR department, Cyber.

It really comes as no surprise.
I'd considered both the GMDX and him retarded way before I found out that CyberP is the man behind the mod.
GMDX is a very obvious product of insanity. I kinda consider it on-par with SS2 Infinite mod.

 

[CyberP]

THE LEVEL OF RETARDED IN THIS THREAD IS THROUGH THE FUCKING ROOF.

This time we have Gnidrologist addressing comments about Brutal Doom thinking they are about other works, and calling realistic effects/genuine improvements "popamole", and we then have some other douchebag ALSO speaking without clearly knowing a Goddamn thing about what he is addressing.
Idiots with opinions. Arguing with them is just as idiotic, not to mention futile.

What idiocy from the 'dex comes next? Who knows, but one thing is guaranteed: there will be more! It is unending.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Fuck me, what a wall of text I wrote.

I agree that the variety of weapons was greater in DX. The problem is that most of them overlapped each other.

Didn't find that to be the case, their individual effectiveness depended on the situation, your had:

-10mm pistol that is good/solid (but far from the best) in almost every situation you can find yourself in ( which makes it reliable) and takes small inventory size which allows you to carry other weapons like GEP gun to take on bots and blast doors/containers.

-Stealth pistol trades off lesser stopping power than 10mm pistol for higher rate of fire and silencer.

-Crossbow is a hit and run long range pacifist weapon.

-Assault Rifle, a versatile all around weapon that is great for medium distance targets and boss fights, also has a grenade launcher as alternative fire (ammo for it is pretty scarce so it can never fully replace GEP gun). It guzzles up ammo faster than any other weapon.

-Assault Shotgun, along with Flamethrower is the best for clearing out a room quickly, has sabot shells (alternative ammo) that are great against bots (and plentiful enough), especially those annoying spider ones. It's also adequate against bosses.

-Sniper rifle, the OP weapon for first DX. Tremendous damage, can be silenced, at Master level destroys cameras, alarm panels and even certain lockers and doors. Ineffective against bots and far from being the best choice when facing multiple small distance targets and bosses.

-GEP gun, a great multi purpose weapon. Even has an alternate fire that is very useful against groups of lightly armored enemies.

etc.

Most weapons excelled in different situations which is good design. Of course it wasn't without flaws but most weapons had enough going for them to feel useful.

In HR on the other hand, can't see good reason for using weapons other than 10mm pistol, maybe revolver and cinematic punching takedowns.

Well, if you play stubborn pacifist then prod or batton + arbalest is your choice. In HR it's stun gun (which is basically a melee weapon) and gas rifle for long range unlethal takedown.

If I play a pacifist in DX I use pepper spray, baton, prod and crossbow which all have their quirks and differences from firearms/lethal weapons (much more effective when attacking from behind, stunning opponents, dealing damage over time etc.) which makes the non-lethal and lethal playthroughs feel sufficiently different.

In HR, the only use I've found for the stun gun is if I'm faced with 3 opponents in melee (shoot one and then use the double takedown) but that's highly situational, otherwise takedowns give more XP, don't have to be aimed and you're invincible while performing them which make stun gun a very poor alternative overall. Well, it's also useful against the 1st boss I guess, when my 10mm pistol is not fully upgraded.

Tranq rifle was somewhat interesting because in HR enemies could wake up their tranqued buddies (a very cool feature) but other than that faces the same problem of a sniper rifle due to level design.

If you play a stubborn ghost, but without the pacifist shtick, it adds addition of silenced pistol and sniper rifle.

If I play anything but a pacifist I'll very rarely use anything other than upgraded 10mm pistol (it kills even bosses very easily). Why would I use a sniper rifle when levels are small, it has worse stopping power (than a pistol), takes more inventory space and can't be silenced?

So basically there's not much difference in this aspect apart of the fact that there are no straight melee weapons in HR except for mounted blades in Jensen's sleeves, which, i think, was why the melee weapons were abolished in the first place.

Abolishing melee weapons (as rudimentary as they were in DX) in favor of cinematic takedowns was a terrible design decision as far as I'm concerned. They're too easy to use (press the awesome button, no targeting or any sort of player skill invovled), take the control away from the player (which I hate), stop time (which is ridiculous), can be performed facing the enemy with the same efficiency as if you sneaked behind them and you're invincible while performing them.

I mean, say I'm facing head-on a group of enemies in DX and HR, in the former I'll use pepper spray (which requires some practice to be used effectively), then switch to baton, activate Combat Strength aug if needed and take them out. In HR I'd just press the awesome button a few times (maybe eat a chocolate in-between to regenerate energy). Which is more player involved and fun?

Btw, fully modded silenced pistol was the best weapon in original DX just as it is in HR.

Nah, neither 10mm nor stealth pistol are the best in any single situation in original DX, their biggest strength is that they're reliable and take up very little inventory space (which allows you to also carry a GEP gun for example).

The best overall weapon in DX is a sniper rifle, followed by DTS.

Plus, it has revolver, with explosive rounds, when you don't want to play quietly, which imo is great addition. You can even shoot at wall, where you saw a foe hiding behind to kill him. Was very handy at that chinese tower final ambush battle, where you can't really sneak around anymore, but instead wait for what's coming to you.

I forgot about Revolver, it is indeed another good weapon that can knock down enemies and is good against the crowd but still, with 10mm pistol you'll rarely if ever face a crowd (because silenced), you can one-shoot anyone but Ogres and bosses (well bots as well, but they're extremely rare and die to a single EMP grenade which you don't use for anything else) and has a higher rate of fire (which makes it more effective even against bosses).

By chinese tower do you mean that Hengsha Gardens ambush when Belltower mercs arrive? They mostly go in groups of two and heavies that wield heavy rifles are very easy prey for the pistol, they move very slowly and you just need one headshot.

''Filter'' is a meaningless word. A lot of games, before all the blooms & shlooms were introduced had very specific colour patern. You either liked it or not. I can't say that bleak grey/blue shit everywhere in DX was bad, because it fitted the setting just like colorful, merry colors of NLO fits its setting, but i don't see how ''piss filter'' in HR is any worse. It also sets certain ''tone'', which one may like or not, but it FITS.

Sure, they usually have a specific color pattern but from what I've seen yellow is more dominant in HR than any single color is in the original DX. Still, don't see point in arguing about this as I overall liked the look of HR, in general I appreciate when games make an effort to have a distinct visual style more so than the number of polygons or special effects.

Yeah, nice that here we don't fall out. CyberModer though implied that DX had great C&C in comparison to HR. That's just one of several false clams he made.

As far as I understand CyberP considers DX to have a sort of gameplay C&C, in a sense that you make choices on how to tackle obstacles in moment-to-moment gameplay.

My definition of C&C is more traditional, when you make narrative choices that affect gameplay (either imediatelly or more preferably eventually at some later point in the game) or make gameplay choices that affect the narrative. DX doesn't really have either of those (barring few exceptions), one big choice was supposed to be between joining NSF and staying loyal to UNATCO but it never made it into the game/was scrapped.

Can agree with that partly. Console limitations are indeed a bitch. This is why a lot of areas feel smaller, when they actually aren't. Because of LOADING SCREENS. The very first area, Detroit, is no smaller than, say, Hong Kong on New York areas in DX, but they feel smaller because of constant need to wait for few load second. This is somewhat artificial complain, but it really affects the overall judgement. Like, remember Gothic 2 had almost 100% seamless world, while Morrowind that came out at the same time, had to load every goddamn shack. It's cosmetic issue, but it says a lot about skill of developers.

Problem is, it's not just a cosmetic issue, individual areas/levels just feel more boxed in and smaller than DX. The best proof of that (for me) is that I wondered after first completing HR, how come I didn't feel the need to use sniper rifle or zoom at any point while original DX had plenty of such instances. It just lacks those large areas original had.

Dishonored is next on my list for another popamole thrler i missed. heard a lot of good words here on Codex, never the less. Never played a single SC game, but enjoyed Hitman series. How do they compare?
(don't mention Thief - i'll probably play it when i'll be 80 years old, pissing in mh pampers.

Your milage may vary with Dishonored. Personally, I like it becasuse I consider it to be the only modern game which has truly old-school organic level design with great use of verticality. On the other hand protagonist is OP as hell (which makes the game too easy), I couldn't care less about the story and the characters, it has retarded C&C system where the game punishes you for killing people even though you're supposed to be a vengeful assassin and guns blazing approach feels far more developed and refined (in terms of gameplay and tools available) than stealth system (which is barebones in comparison).

SC plays very differently than Hitman for the simple reason that it has no social stealth (disguises) so you have your traditional sneaking, hiding in shadows and using your (very varied and fun) spy tech gadgets. One of the best things about the game for me is the sheer amount of moves and actions (many of them contextual) that Sam can perform, no other game feels quite like it. Level design is straightforward and somewhat linear but the locations are decently varied. Story is mostly forgetabble Tom Clancy crap but Sam himself is quite likeable and greatly voiced (by Michael Ironside) and I really like the soundtrack.

Mind you, I'm talking about Chaos Theory mostly which is the absolute pinnacle of the series.

You can get almost every passcode from silly info books in original DX. And i know this though i've only played it twice. Common, mang. Vents are your friends.

Not the point I was making. My criticism wasn't that you can easily find most password/passcodes but that the XP system motivates you to hack everything regardless of whether you know the password/code (which is retarded).

Anything but objective XP is wrong design for a DX game which is all about the freedom of tackling objectives the way you see fit.

Could you remind me on this one. I remember not caring about anything but psitol and hacking skill both times i played. Investing into rifles or heavy guns is downright retarded, because game is obviously designed around stealth and hacking shit, while the organic weapons and what was that other skill, were simply for theme characters, who played game 10 times already and wanted to experience something exotic.

Stealth and hacking is just one way to tackle obstacles in DX, guns blazing is supported just as much through skills and augs and level design/XP system favours neither approach. When it comes to skills, Rifle is probably the most powerful skill overall for sniper rifle alone which is a great weapon/tool at Master level regardless of whether you're sneaking or not, Heavy Guns is useful upgrading to Advanced because at that level big guns like GEP and Flamethrower don't hinder your movement anymore (which makes you a walking tank basically), Hacking has no real use being upgraded past Trained and you can do without even that (if you're the type that likes to explore levels, you'll find most relevant passwords anyway) etc.

Of course the skill system in DX is still flawed and could be improved upon significantly but I still very much like the idea of it (if not fully the implementation) and don't see axing it as a good design decision. Overall, first DX through skills and augs does a far better job at allowing you to customize and specialize your character, depending on how you want to approach the game your aug set/build will be different for example and there are some interesting choices to make there (can't have all augs because some of them occupy the same slot). HR on the other hand, while I beat the game several times I always chose same augs, there's just not much there to choose from.

 

[pippin]

Is Deus Ex blue and black or white and gold?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It really comes as no surprise.
I'd considered both the GMDX and him retarded way before I found out that CyberP is the man behind the mod.
GMDX is a very obvious product of insanity. I kinda consider it on-par with SS2 Infinite mod.

GMDX is pretty great actually (and I usually don't care for mods), it's worth it for AI improvements alone (one of the areas in which DX was lacking the most). Superficial changes aside (graphics stuff), it also does a good job of rebalancing augs, weapons and skills, level design changes are non-intrusive and usually make sense (MJ12 sewers base being more fortified for example, these guys are supposed to be pros), ammo/items are more scarce but I consider that a good thing as I'm no longer swimming in LAMs, rockets, multitools and lockpicks.

It doesn't drastically alter the DX formula or something, it's more in the line of refining it and increasing the overall challenge in a non-jarring way (which is always the tricky part).

 

[MilesBeyond]

I think a good general principle is that if the best strategy for defending one game is shit-talking another game, it's probably not a very good game.

 

[CyberP]

It really comes as no surprise.
I'd considered both the GMDX and him retarded way before I found out that CyberP is the man behind the mod.
GMDX is a very obvious product of insanity. I kinda consider it on-par with SS2 Infinite mod.

it's worth it for AI improvements alone (one of the areas in which DX was lacking the most).

I make little virtual men more "intelligent" via giving instructions to computers, among many other things. If that is retarded by T. Reich's standards then I'd like to know what his accomplishments are.
Assuming by his contributions in this thread (two separate snide attacks on those that prefer DX1), he is a butthurt HR fanboy. That makes him retarded akin to Gnidrologist.

(and I usually don't care for mods)

That's a shame. Good mods keep me satisfied that there is still some hope for gaming. Game enhancing mods can really take a much-loved classic to the next level, and TC's are essentially new games, some of which are very high quality. And of course they are free.
There's too many crappy half-assed mods that overshadow the huge professional quality mods by sheer numbers.
My reliance on mods for entertainment for the past however many years has kept me satiated during the decline, and many don't get enough credit. People would rather focus on and pay for AAA garbage than download free quality old-school principled mods.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Stop baiting poor modder, guys, or he'll snap completely, and who knows what it will bring.

Spoiler

(probably obsessive stalking and making blogs on blogspot)

Modders gonna drama, after all it's in their nature.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I didn't ask for this.

 

[CyberP]

"Modders gonna drama, after all it's in their nature."

Ridiculous generalization.

"(probably obsessive stalking and making blogs on blogspot)"

You don't know me. Before you assumed you did you should have seen I've opposed the drama-whoring/encouraging of this site since the beginning. The most I'd do after continuous provocation is give you a broken nose if circumstance arises. Nice and quick. There's no resolution or satisfaction in spending much time on an "attack" for little to no results.
There's plenty of written pieces on the web of how mentally deranged and backwards this place is already anyway.

I didn't ask for this.

You did, decline enabler.

 

[Gnidrologist]

 

[CyberP]

 

[ERYFKRAD]

 

[Stainless Veteran]

"Modders gonna drama, after all it's in their nature."

Ridiculous generalization.

"(probably obsessive stalking and making blogs on blogspot)"

You don't know me. Before you assumed you did you should have seen I've opposed the drama-whoring/encouraging of this site since the beginning. The most I'd do after continuous provocation is give you a broken nose if circumstance arises. Nice and quick. There's no resolution or satisfaction in spending much time on an "attack" for little to no results.
There's plenty of written pieces on the web of how mentally deranged and backwards this place is already anyway.

You see, you even forgot how to quote properly already, poor dear. As for broken noses, thanks for the offer, but I must decline, not into BDSM.

Also, while we're posting gifs - this is certainly relevant to this thread.

 

[Alfons]

THE LEVEL OF RETARDED IN THIS THREAD IS THROUGH THE FUCKING ROOF.

WTF did you expect? This thread is dedicated to you after all.

 

[Shevek]

I gotta try this DX1 mod. CyberP seems to have some sense of what made DX1 good.

I've been disappointed both of the sequels. I still remember the soul crushing anger I felt when playing IW at E3 with its unified ammo and crap level design. Then the sadness at the boss battles and overall anime feel of HR.

For FPS RPGs, its all about DX, Bloodlines and SS2. DXHR doesn't even come close.

 

[CyberP]

I gotta try this DX1 mod. CyberP seems to have some sense of what made DX1 good.

I've been disappointed both of the sequels. I still remember the soul crushing anger I felt when playing IW at E3 with its unified ammo and crap level design. Then the sadness at the boss battles and overall anime feel of HR.

For FPS RPGs, its all about DX, Bloodlines and SS2. DXHR doesn't even come close.

I feel you. Ignore these little trolls, at least two are those that are still butthurt over previous probings I gave them.

I have been waiting for another worthy FPS/RPG/Immersive Sim for a long time. The genre holds much potential, but instead we get cutscene takedowns, unified ammo and vita chambers. If that is the future of the professional games then I'll stick to the slow but sure advancements of the modding scene/do it myself.