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Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Darth Roxor said:
It's even less sensical than that because axes and hammers have a similar way of usage.

I haven't wielded either in combat (obv), but have worked with a lot of hammers, sledges, axes and splitting mauls in my life. And if you've ever seen a splitting maul you'll know it's basically blunt along the "edge", and if you've handled one you'll know the motion isn't different from that of a sledge. Lighter axes are different, but there's no working hammer equivalent. Working with the group of "splitting" axes or mauls feels like using the same muscle groups as sledgehammers, tho, and the motion is pretty much identical.

Let me put it this way: from a motion and usage perspective, it makes a lot more sense to group together axes and hammers as "shafted weapons" than axes and swords as "bladed weapons".
 
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Darth Roxor said:
I really, really, really don't like the idea of merging the waffen skills. As much as I can understand merging small/big guns with their respective small/big energy weapons, merging small and big guns makes a little less sense to me, and adding an equals sign between a rocket launcher and a grenade is idiotic.

Is it really all that different from pistols, sniper rifles, assault rifles, shotguns, and railguns all being in the same category? I figure the common part of rocket launchers and grenades is that the player has to maintain potentially dangerous explosive items. Yes there is technically a repair skill, but this is more about making sure your weapon doesn't blow up in your face then actually improving it.

Again, if anything its Big Guns and Explosives being merged, and ONE (1) big gun, the minigun, is being put along with the other guns because it isn't an explosive.

Since our skill point economy is more frugal (I'll delve into this another time) and since we do have Strength requirements on weapons (resulting in increased sway for firearms and a decreased rate of fire for melee/unarmed), where you invest your skill points and SPECIAL points is still pretty important.

This sounds like a fairly large :incline:, if its actually true that you get less skill points and weapons have strength requirements. If miniguns require 8 strength or something that already separates them from the rest of the guns while still not requiring a player to build a useless skill for the first 10 hours of the game before finding one.
 

yaster

Liturgist
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Darth Roxor said:
Compare using single shots/short bursts to carefully snipe faggots with light firearms like pistols or an assault/sniper rifle, and the 'MOW DOWN EVERYTHING IN SIGHT' attitude of, for example, a gatling.

Small guns (SG) had plenty of burst firing weapons in FO1&2 (can't say a shit about FO3, barely played). And there is RL in BG. The distinction isn't so obvious. The explanation given by Sawyer about poorly defined distinction seems reasonable to me. Gauss might be highend SG so it would make SG sniping weapons but it isn't information player would have.

Either way, now we have guns with can perform as fastshooters/suppression and energy weapons with could take sniping easily. I see no big problem here. I would take boons that merge gives over that without hesitation.
 

Gerrard

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Darth Roxor said:
adding an equals sign between a rocket launcher and a grenade is idiotic.
Not any more idiotic than doing the same with rocket launcher/flamer/minigun, as was already pointed out in that post.
Czepiasz się po prostu.
 
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root said:
i think merging the guns as a design decision is elegant, but it certainly lacks logic. the guy's basically saying that the skill is not in shooting the gun, but in reloading the fucking thing. so I suppose flamers will need doctor skill since they use those oxy/whatever cannisters.

still, not too shabby, apart from the lazor beam

It sounds more like he accepts that its a stupid distinction, but acknoledges its made for gameplay reasons. Otherwise there would be one guns skill, because every gun is pointing it at an enemy and pulling the trigger.
 

Darth Roxor

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Gerrard said:
Darth Roxor said:
adding an equals sign between a rocket launcher and a grenade is idiotic.
Not any more idiotic than doing the same with rocket launcher/flamer/minigun, as was already pointed out in that post.

No. At least minigun/flamer/rocket launcher have the common attribute of 'point at the enemy's general direction and fire'. What is the common attribute of a rocket launcher and, for example, C4?
 

FeelTheRads

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@Sister None

Well, a two-handed sword probably uses similar muscle groups too. And you also mentioned light axes which could be one handed, so it's not really so clear.

If you're gonna take this into consideration then it seems like a different categorization altogether is needed, more or less like it was in Fallout 1&2.

That's why, yaster, throwing rocket launchers together with grenades doesn't make much sense. I understand abstraction, even putting miniguns and rifles together, but this a bit too much.

Not any more idiotic than doing the same with rocket launcher/flamer/minigun,

You hold a rocket laucher, you hold a flame thrower, you hold a minigun. You throw a grenade. Very big difference.
 

TwinkieGorilla

does a good job.
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
FeelTheRads said:
You hold a rocket laucher, you hold a flame thrower, you hold a minigun. You throw a grenade. Very big difference.

so, the explosives skill...in your perfect world...would enhance...


...



...grenade throwing? awesome. tagged.
 

FeelTheRads

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TwinkieGorilla said:
FeelTheRads said:
You hold a rocket laucher, you hold a flame thrower, you hold a minigun. You throw a grenade. Very big difference.

so, the explosives skill...in your perfect world...would enhance...


...



...grenade throwing? awesome. tagged.

No.

In my perfect world the same skill set applies to throwing grenades, planting explosives and shooting rocket launchers. :roll:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Your face, mostly.

But other than that, trying to make these changes sound like they are better than the originals, when they clearly aren't.
 

Berekän

A life wasted
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Brother None said:
Darth Roxor said:
It's even less sensical than that because axes and hammers have a similar way of usage.

I haven't wielded either in combat (obv), but have worked with a lot of hammers, sledges, axes and splitting mauls in my life. And if you've ever seen a splitting maul you'll know it's basically blunt along the "edge", and if you've handled one you'll know the motion isn't different from that of a sledge. Lighter axes are different, but there's no working hammer equivalent. Working with the group of "splitting" axes or mauls feels like using the same muscle groups as sledgehammers, tho, and the motion is pretty much identical.

Let me put it this way: from a motion and usage perspective, it makes a lot more sense to group together axes and hammers as "shafted weapons" than axes and swords as "bladed weapons".

But it's not about the motion or the muscles you're working with. That would enter in the Strenght or even Dexterity attributes. The more you work with those muscles, the stronger you'll get with them, leading to more powerful blows. We're talking about the skill and knowledge of those weapons.

But it doesn't matter at all that I'm fucking Conan the Barbarian if I don't know how to fight with a given weapon, If I keep trying to stab you in the chest of your plate armour with a dagger all I'm going to get is a broken knife. The same way, you don't fight similarly with an axe and a hammer. If I'm using an axe I'm likely to try to take you down targeting unarmored areas and limbs, whilst with a hammer I'm hitting more armored areas like the chest or the helmet to do more shock damage.
 

Darth Roxor

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Berekän said:
If I'm using an axe I'm likely to try to take you down targeting unarmored areas and limbs, whilst with a hammer I'm hitting more armored areas like the chest or the helmet to do more shock damage.

Uh, no, not really. Heavy axes chop through armour like through butter.
 

Berekän

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Darth Roxor said:
Berekän said:
If I'm using an axe I'm likely to try to take you down targeting unarmored areas and limbs, whilst with a hammer I'm hitting more armored areas like the chest or the helmet to do more shock damage.

Uh, no, not really. Heavy axes chop through armour like through butter.

Yup, good luck releasing it later with the remaining enemies stabbing your back.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Berekän said:
But it doesn't matter at all that I'm fucking Conan the Barbarian if I don't know how to fight with a given weapon, If I keep trying to stab you in the chest of your plate armour with a dagger all I'm going to get is a broken knife. The same way, you don't fight similarly with an axe and a hammer. If I'm using an axe I'm likely to try to take you down targeting unarmored areas and limbs, whilst with a hammer I'm hitting more armored areas like the chest or the helmet to do more shock damage.

Aside from the "heavy axes were made to slice through armor" thing, I don't think hammers work by bashing for shellshock effect either. Specifically, I'd figure they'd target either the head or limbs. To break.

Thing is, that logic is valid, and it means splitting up so, so many things. Daggers don't work like swords. Hewing weapons like machetes are different swords. Épées and Rapiers aren't swords either. Yet most standard fantasy skill systems throw all these weapons into one category, or sometimes take out daggers. Who's complainin'?

You always make the distinction somewhere. And I'm just saying, when you think about it, Bethesda's merging of axes and hammers into one makes a lot more sense than merging axes and swords into "bladed weapons". The name of the skill is p stupid tho.
 

Achilles

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They should have created more categories, not merge skills. I thought we were trying to avoid the jack-of -all-trades mentality.
 

Secretninja

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I do not understand the nerdrage in this thread. Pistols are handled very differently than sniper rifles, yet that is more acceptable than rocket launchers and grenades being handled by the same skill? ffs
 
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Brother None said:

Sounds good, I get all my news from SA :roll:

It doesn't fit their new "its an energy weapon if its loaded with energy cells' criteria. I think its just fine as an explosive, you need at least one semi-safe weapon to use in close quarters without blowing yourself up.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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Overweight Manatee said:
Sounds good, I get all my news from SA :roll:

Rope kid is J.E. Sawyer.
 

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