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Gary Gygax & D&D FBI Files

GarlandExCon

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https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3866268-TSR-Pt-4.html

A reporter from Reason magazine did a FOA request for D&D and Gygax files and this is what they sent him.

gygax.png
gygax.png
 

hellbent

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Gygax was an original gangsta and member of the war gamers mafia.

Also, I am so shocked to read that there were apparently domestic terrorists that were into wargaming.
 

Dorateen

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I thought this might be about the incident around 1970, when Gary Gygax and the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association had gathered the attention of the US government. A pair of Army intelligence officials, under the cover of a man and wife team of wargamers, were sent to monitor the group's activities. After the agents determined that LGTSA was innocent, the man came clean and explained to Gary who they were and the nature of their assignment.

The official also asked if he could continue playing with the wargaming group.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.
 

GarlandExCon

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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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Joined
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Messages
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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.

I'm far more of a Badnarik libertarian. I disagree with any political ideology that is based on people not acting how they historically have and always will, from socialism to this new breed of libertarianism. It just isn't well thought out. Like Johnson claiming illegal immigrants do not take jobs from US Citizens. It is very simple economics. Illegal immigrants will do shitty jobs for little money. If these shitty jobs have to be done, and there are no illegal immigrants, the wage would go up until it is at a place where US Citizens would do the job. Or, the job market shrinks - for instance, very cheap illegal immigrant labor may reduce the price of house cleaning services and lawn care services to a price where a lot more people are willing to pay for these services. Take away the illegal immigration, wages go up, price for service goes up, and more people do their own cleaning and lawn work like this is fucking America and they are supposed to anyways.
 

GarlandExCon

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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.

I'm far more of a Badnarik libertarian. I disagree with any political ideology that is based on people not acting how they historically have and always will, from socialism to this new breed of libertarianism. It just isn't well thought out. Like Johnson claiming illegal immigrants do not take jobs from US Citizens. It is very simple economics. Illegal immigrants will do shitty jobs for little money. If these shitty jobs have to be done, and there are no illegal immigrants, the wage would go up until it is at a place where US Citizens would do the job. Or, the job market shrinks - for instance, very cheap illegal immigrant labor may reduce the price of house cleaning services and lawn care services to a price where a lot more people are willing to pay for these services. Take away the illegal immigration, wages go up, price for service goes up, and more people do their own cleaning and lawn work like this is fucking America and they are supposed to anyways.

You and I are pretty close then because Michael Badnarik was my favorite nominee in LP Party history and he's just a great guy. His Constitution Classes had a lot of impact on me and when he was running that was when I was most active in the LP, volunteering for his campaign. My two biggest modern libertarian influences are him and Ron Paul.

What bugged me the most about Johnson and Weld was them taking politically correct positions that couldn't be more wrong just to try and appeal to Hillary's base. They embraced all the SJW non-sense. I remember when they did some kind of Univision thing I think with Yahoo and Jorge Ramos was hosting. During the commercials the live stream continued on Yahoo so you could watch the banter when the show was off are. During one of these periods Ramos asked Johnson about his use of the term illegal immigrant, basically making the ridiculous case that the term is somehow is "dehumanizing" (when it's actually simply accurate). Johnson immediately backpeddled for Ramos and literally two days later he was condemning the term and using "undocumented immigrant." That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me because the LP has always been the party of principle and they were just flat out pandering. Disgusting.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.

I'm far more of a Badnarik libertarian. I disagree with any political ideology that is based on people not acting how they historically have and always will, from socialism to this new breed of libertarianism. It just isn't well thought out. Like Johnson claiming illegal immigrants do not take jobs from US Citizens. It is very simple economics. Illegal immigrants will do shitty jobs for little money. If these shitty jobs have to be done, and there are no illegal immigrants, the wage would go up until it is at a place where US Citizens would do the job. Or, the job market shrinks - for instance, very cheap illegal immigrant labor may reduce the price of house cleaning services and lawn care services to a price where a lot more people are willing to pay for these services. Take away the illegal immigration, wages go up, price for service goes up, and more people do their own cleaning and lawn work like this is fucking America and they are supposed to anyways.

You and I are pretty close then because Michael Badnarik was my favorite nominee in LP Party history and he's just a great guy. His Constitution Classes had a lot of impact on me and when he was running that was when I was most active in the LP, volunteering for his campaign. My two biggest modern libertarian influences are him and Ron Paul.

What bugged me the most about Johnson and Weld was them taking politically correct positions that couldn't be more wrong just to try and appeal to Hillary's base. They embraced all the SJW non-sense. I remember when they did some kind of Univision thing I think with Yahoo and Jorge Ramos was hosting. During the commercials the live stream continued on Yahoo so you could watch the banter when the show was off are. During one of these periods Ramos asked Johnson about his use of the term illegal immigrant, basically making the ridiculous case that the term is somehow is "dehumanizing" (when it's actually simply accurate). Johnson immediately backpeddled for Ramos and literally two days later he was condemning the term and using "undocumented immigrant." That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me because the LP has always been the party of principle and they were just flat out pandering. Disgusting.

I agree. Did you actual take his classes in person? I watched a lot of him online. He is an amazing person and would have done wonders as a voice of reason at a time when there was little (and things have only gotten worse).

Its nice to meet a fellow traveler. It is a rare thing when someone agrees with me about anything, especially politics. I wish Ron Paul got the attention Sanders did when the Republicans where straight out denying him any chance to be the nominee and he was completely stonewalled by all the MSM like he didn't even exist and wasn't running, right and left leaning both. And that is why I love Trump. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with his specific policies or views - all the MSM hates him and that is the greatest assurance he is not corrupt and wants to do right by the US People. I turned one of my sisters into a libertarian, but she went all crazy and rogue on me.

Badnarik had great ideals tempered by reality. My sister and her brand of volunteerism doesn't account for reality and requires everyone to be on board and think alike for her magical utopia to work. Its just like socialism in that it sounds good until you factor in people and reality. Or any other utopian philosophy. As long as people are diverse in thought there will never be utopia. The best we can do is just be as free as possible. And being free doesn't mean good. The very cornerstone of freedom is people being able to do what I despise and I can't do shit about it. Regardless of the greater good, or nonsensical ideals like good. The only thing that is good is people being able to be as free as possible, even when its really bad for everyone. Why? Diversity of thought.

"Once governments are given the authority to restrict the liberty of some sane adults for what it considers their physical or moral welfare, there is no principled stopping point in terms of what governments will have the authority to prohibit. The consequence will be that virtually anything which anyone holds of most value may become prohibited to them on grounds of its being judged immoral or dangerous to them. There are practically no forms of activity in which sane adults like to engage that others are not able to find reasons to condemn as morally or physically bad for those who engage in them. This ranges from drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco, to eating certain types of food, to not taking exercise, to taking too much, engaging in dangerous sports, practising certain religions, not practising any religion, reading books on science, etc. Unless government draws the line at only prohibiting conduct that harms others against their will, no member of society can be secure in being able to do or have anything they most want and value." --David Conway
 

Old One

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A reporter from Reason magazine did a FOA request for D&D and Gygax files and this is what they sent him.
The best quote from those documents, hands down, is this:

REDACTED advised that war gamers are generally extremely intelligent individuals. Often they will live frugally to support the cost of the war gaming hobby. REDACTED further advised that the typical war gaming enthusiast is overweight and not neat in appearance.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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Messages
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A reporter from Reason magazine did a FOA request for D&D and Gygax files and this is what they sent him.
The best quote from those documents, hands down, is this:

REDACTED advised that war gamers are generally extremely intelligent individuals. Often they will live frugally to support the cost of the war gaming hobby. REDACTED further advised that the typical war gaming enthusiast is overweight and not neat in appearance.

It seems contradictory. Anyone extremely intelligent shouldn't have issue in the country this report takes place in being employed at a wage or salary level commensurate to supporting any hobby they have. I completely understand the overweight and not neat in appearance since fashion and superficial bullshit is a construct of the less intelligent and food is fucking delicious and fun to eat which even really stupid people can figure out and leads to being overweight.
 
Self-Ejected

Davaris

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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.

I'm far more of a Badnarik libertarian. I disagree with any political ideology that is based on people not acting how they historically have and always will, from socialism to this new breed of libertarianism. It just isn't well thought out. Like Johnson claiming illegal immigrants do not take jobs from US Citizens. It is very simple economics. Illegal immigrants will do shitty jobs for little money. If these shitty jobs have to be done, and there are no illegal immigrants, the wage would go up until it is at a place where US Citizens would do the job. Or, the job market shrinks - for instance, very cheap illegal immigrant labor may reduce the price of house cleaning services and lawn care services to a price where a lot more people are willing to pay for these services. Take away the illegal immigration, wages go up, price for service goes up, and more people do their own cleaning and lawn work like this is fucking America and they are supposed to anyways.

Libertardians want to open the borders, because its not just about freedumb for 'murricans, they wanna Universalize their freedumb Religion. Borders restrict muh freedumbs you see, so borders gotta go. Pity for libertardians, third worlders aren't interested in freedumb and small government, they vote for the opposite when they get to 'murrica. So when the third world pours in and starts voting, any elected libertardian party would go bye bye.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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Messages
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It makes me extremely happy to know GG wasn't a cultist and actually thought for himself politically, and also liked to stick it to the man by trying to avoid paying as much taxes as he could.

I'd also like to note that today's Libertarian party under Johnson, and the laughable former Mass governor, and the whole post-zeitgeist volunteerism movement, is far more cultist than it was in the 80s through to 2008 or so.

There is a massive divide in the LP now where the volunteerists types are expanding in numbers and disowning the party. It seems that the ridiculous Johnson/Weld ticket was the last straw for them.

I'm far more of a Badnarik libertarian. I disagree with any political ideology that is based on people not acting how they historically have and always will, from socialism to this new breed of libertarianism. It just isn't well thought out. Like Johnson claiming illegal immigrants do not take jobs from US Citizens. It is very simple economics. Illegal immigrants will do shitty jobs for little money. If these shitty jobs have to be done, and there are no illegal immigrants, the wage would go up until it is at a place where US Citizens would do the job. Or, the job market shrinks - for instance, very cheap illegal immigrant labor may reduce the price of house cleaning services and lawn care services to a price where a lot more people are willing to pay for these services. Take away the illegal immigration, wages go up, price for service goes up, and more people do their own cleaning and lawn work like this is fucking America and they are supposed to anyways.

Libertardians want to open the borders, because its not just about freedumb for 'murricans, they wanna Universalize their freedumb Religion. Borders restrict muh freedumbs you see, so borders gotta go. Pity for libertardians, third worlders aren't interested in freedumb and small government, they vote for the opposite when they get to 'murrica. So when the third world pours in and starts voting, any elected libertardian party would go bye bye.

Well said, sir! Well said indeed.
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Libertarians want to open the border because borders are the basis of a central national power. It's key to performing censuses that allow you to measure and use manpower and economic power. It's what allows governments to discriminate between what man power belongs to them and can be controlled and what man power belongs to someone else. The basis of deciding who gets to use your infrastructure and market pools to develop their potential as individuals and which people are excluded.

It's why the opposite of a libertarian state (China) exercises border control of citizen traffic between different provinces and cities.
 

GarlandExCon

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I agree. Did you actual take his classes in person? I watched a lot of him online. He is an amazing person and would have done wonders as a voice of reason at a time when there was little (and things have only gotten worse).

Its nice to meet a fellow traveler. It is a rare thing when someone agrees with me about anything, especially politics. I wish Ron Paul got the attention Sanders did when the Republicans where straight out denying him any chance to be the nominee and he was completely stonewalled by all the MSM like he didn't even exist and wasn't running, right and left leaning both. And that is why I love Trump. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with his specific policies or views - all the MSM hates him and that is the greatest assurance he is not corrupt and wants to do right by the US People. I turned one of my sisters into a libertarian, but she went all crazy and rogue on me.

Badnarik had great ideals tempered by reality. My sister and her brand of volunteerism doesn't account for reality and requires everyone to be on board and think alike for her magical utopia to work. Its just like socialism in that it sounds good until you factor in people and reality. Or any other utopian philosophy. As long as people are diverse in thought there will never be utopia. The best we can do is just be as free as possible. And being free doesn't mean good. The very cornerstone of freedom is people being able to do what I despise and I can't do shit about it. Regardless of the greater good, or nonsensical ideals like good. The only thing that is good is people being able to be as free as possible, even when its really bad for everyone. Why? Diversity of thought.

"Once governments are given the authority to restrict the liberty of some sane adults for what it considers their physical or moral welfare, there is no principled stopping point in terms of what governments will have the authority to prohibit. The consequence will be that virtually anything which anyone holds of most value may become prohibited to them on grounds of its being judged immoral or dangerous to them. There are practically no forms of activity in which sane adults like to engage that others are not able to find reasons to condemn as morally or physically bad for those who engage in them. This ranges from drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco, to eating certain types of food, to not taking exercise, to taking too much, engaging in dangerous sports, practising certain religions, not practising any religion, reading books on science, etc. Unless government draws the line at only prohibiting conduct that harms others against their will, no member of society can be secure in being able to do or have anything they most want and value." --David Conway

Michael was fantastic at one-liners and explaining things in short, indisputable talking points everyone could understand. This was remarkable because one of the hardest things about presenting libertarianism to the masses has been the fact that it's not easy to do that.

I not only took one of his classes in person, I helped organize one.

I really believe that if the 2012 election had been like the 2016 election Ron Paul would have one the nomination. He was head of his time and opened the window for an outsider like Trump but never got the chance to go through it himself. 2016 was indeed the perfect time for an outsider like Ron. He would have been the Sanders of the Republican Party.

I'm not a fan of Trump, although I did prefer him to Hillary. I personally think the Trump love based on how loathed he is by the MSM and the simple fact that he is an outsider in and of itself is misguided, because what should matter are his principles and at the end of the day he does not have libertarian principles.

I know a lot of libertarians like your sister who got introduced to libertarianism, usually via Ron Paul, and then went rogue and embraced unrealistic and annoying "volunteerism." A lot of them did it because they were so dishearten by what happened to Ron in 2008 that they were like "fuck the system!" and decided they wanted nothing to do with it. What annoys me about this is that a lot of them, including people who volunteered and even worked for Ron's 2008 campaign, wouldn't even vote for him in 2012 even though they supported him because they had this silly idea that voting "supports the state." This actually might have made a difference somewhere like New Hampshire with so many Free State Project volunteerists.

And when you talk to these people they're all about "can't we just handle things in communities among ourselves instead of relying on government" and I asked how they'd do that and they say "well, we'd get together and make decisions as a community..." and I'm like "YOU JUST DESCRIBED GOVERNMENT AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL!"

Meanwhile, they don't account for the different views, cultures, races, etc. that make up this country and the world and this ultimately destroys the hippie idea they have that such a world would be possible. How are they going to decide things with a global community that includes people who support Sharia Law and don't want anything to do with such a system?

Anyway, those are my two cents.

Libertarians want to open the border because borders are the basis of a central national power. It's key to performing censuses that allow you to measure and use manpower and economic power. It's what allows governments to discriminate between what man power belongs to them and can be controlled and what man power belongs to someone else. The basis of deciding who gets to use your infrastructure and market pools to develop their potential as individuals and which people are excluded.

It's why the opposite of a libertarian state (China) exercises border control of citizen traffic between different provinces and cities.

I think that's basically true. On a more basis level it's the "freedom of movement" philosophy in libertarians that people should be able to travel wherever they want and borders prevent that.

That said, I'm a libertarian that actually supports borders. What I remind other libertarians when they question me on this is the importance of sovereignty in protecting and preserving liberty. What is a country without borders? It doesn't exist and ultimate at that point you'll have a move towards a global government that will be more overbearing and difficult to reform and stop than a more localized government. Basically, you'll get 1984. There's a reason many of the world's most powerful and connected people support open borders: because they want global government and that's the first step. NAFTA, the UN... all of these are moves towards global government. If you look at the history of our country alone there has been a move towards the consolidation of power at a higher and more central level. At the state of our country almost all power resided at the state and local level. Now it's the federal level and we see the problems it's causes. The next logical step is the global level. The problem is many other libertarians have this very Utopian view of an open borders policy where everyone just lives in a free world and has personal sovereignty so they advocate open borders policies thinking it will lead there without realizing they're falling into the globalist trap.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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Good points and it was fun to read. Also, just like people who claim free markets are the best, they forget that free markets lead to monopolies that are the worst. I believe in boarders and sovereignty because I believe in diversity and geographical needs. Also, I want other countries to be fun to visit and be totally alien. I hate homogeny and conformity. Free markets are good with some regulations and laws stopping things very bad for free markets, such as illegal immigration lowering wages of a countr's citizens or creating a perpetual underclass. Same goes with boarders. Same goes for everything, including liberty, etc. As Tacticus states - the more numerous the laws the more corrupt the State.
 

GarlandExCon

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Good points and it was fun to read. Also, just like people who claim free markets are the best, they forget that free markets lead to monopolies that are the worst. I believe in boarders and sovereignty because I believe in diversity and geographical needs. Also, I want other countries to be fun to visit and be totally alien. I hate homogeny and conformity. Free markets are good with some regulations and laws stopping things very bad for free markets, such as illegal immigration lowering wages of a countr's citizens or creating a perpetual underclass. Same goes with boarders. Same goes for everything, including liberty, etc. As Tacticus states - the more numerous the laws the more corrupt the State.

I actually have a different perspective towards the free market and monopolies. I believe every monopoly in history has been the result of government interference in the market. Under a free market, eventually competition will rise up that does something better/cheaper and they will knock the king off the throne. However, if the government is propping up the monopoly, that is virtually impossible to do. The problem with the logic of using regulations to prevent monopolies is they often end up being exactly what creates and sustains the monopoly. That's because regulations quickly become a form of crony-Capitalism once the big business interests get involved with government. They then use the regulations, masquerading as being a deterrent against big business, as a tool to crush all competition. Thus, the government becomes an instrument of uplift and protection for them, because they can manipulate the laws/regulations to suit them and ensure that any competition cannot endure them. They have the lobbyists, lawyers and money to get around them. It can't be said about any start-up that tries to challenge them. There's a reason, for example, Wal-Mart lobbied for Obamacare even though it would cost them tremendously: they knew that it would be more harmful to their competition. It also gave them a scapegoat for not providing their employees with benefits.

One of the worst examples I can think of in recent history of anti-monoply/anti-Trust laws being ridiculous is in regards to Whole Foods. A few years ago, the FTC sued Whole Foods, saying they were a "monopoly in premium and organic food supermarkets," which is a concept they invented. They ended up having to sell 32 stores to comply with the FTC. They spent over $32 million dollars fighting it, won in the courts but the FTC has their own courts so after Whole Foods won in the regular courts they told them they were going to be taken to the FTC courts. They realized this was going to cost them at least $100 million dollars so they decided it was more cost effective to just close the stores. Now, a couple of years after this Whole Foods started getting into financial trouble as profits went down and people backlashed over their expensive prices. You see, other grocery chains had started carrying huge premium and organic food sections with selections at lower prices. The free market went to work and gave them competition. Now, hilariously, Amazon -- a company that is constantly labeled a monopoly -- has purchased Whole Foods. Ironically, if you Google "Amazon Whole Foods monoply" 90% of the articles are defending the purchase or saying it's not a monopoly and the FTC hasn't flinched. I guess Amazon has better lobbyists and connections in government.

Today you can get sued for being a monopoly if your prices are too low (predatory pricing), if they're too high (monopolistic prices) or if they're the same as competitors (collusion).

No one can win under that because no matter what you do you can be sued for being a "monopoly" and consider who made the "predatory pricing" law: big business with powerful lobbyists who wanted government to be used as a tool in case someone undercuts their prices to compete. They're big enough so that they can avoid the government coming after them for overpricing goods and even if the government did they can afford to beat it in court, while smaller companies cannot. The entire anti-trust system is rigged against competition and against the consumer. The free market doesn't have these issues.

If you care to listen, Tom Woods has an excellent Podcast covering this topic from this perspective: http://tomwoods.com/ep-232-the-robber-barons-and-monopoly/
 

Max Stats

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I thought this might be about the incident around 1970, when Gary Gygax and the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association had gathered the attention of the US government. A pair of Army intelligence officials, under the cover of a man and wife team of wargamers, were sent to monitor the group's activities. After the agents determined that LGTSA was innocent, the man came clean and explained to Gary who they were and the nature of their assignment.

The official also asked if he could continue playing with the wargaming group.

They should make this into a movie.
 

Dorateen

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I thought this might be about the incident around 1970, when Gary Gygax and the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association had gathered the attention of the US government. A pair of Army intelligence officials, under the cover of a man and wife team of wargamers, were sent to monitor the group's activities. After the agents determined that LGTSA was innocent, the man came clean and explained to Gary who they were and the nature of their assignment.

The official also asked if he could continue playing with the wargaming group.

They should make this into a movie.

They should make the entire life story of E. Gary Gygax into a movie.
 

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