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G2A Steam Key Reseller Drama Thread

gaussgunner

Arcane
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The problem with most indie games is that they are shit. Most of them aren't even worth $10....

...including my own, lol. When it's finished I see a $5 price tag.

I want to support my fellow indies but I can count the games I like on one hand. Most of them aren't even independent. Teams of 30 noob devs churning out casual shite. Established studios under contract to big publishers. Primadonna ex-AAA artists striking out on their own with dreams of getting rich working leisurely 40 hour weeks.
 

Mustawd

Guest
In what universe are indie games too expensive? Indie games are like $15 or $20 at full price; that's 1/4 to 1/3 of what a typical AAA title costs these days. And that's at full price: indie games typically go on sale at least twice a year with deep discounts. Indie games are cheap as hell during Steam sales.

The fact is, this has nothing to do with price--what this comes down to is this: (1) you can get games cheap in a way that supports the developer, or (2) you can get them cheap in a way that offers them no support whatsoever and, in all likelihood, gives your money to thieves instead.

I don't care if you reflexively hate all indies or not. Maybe indies kidnapped your sister and shot your dog--maybe an ancient prophecy means the world will literally explode if you ever buy any game that isn't AAA. So only buy AAA, then. But you should still support the developers who make the games you like, whomever they may be--and that means buying from legitimate sellers, not G2A.

Just my 2 cents.


There are two arguments here:

1.) I don't care what happens to indie devs because their shovelware is overpriced anyway

2.) I don't care about G2A creating a platform for reselling because it's a secondary market which a lot of other industries have.

I'm not in camp 1, but I can understand the sentiment because there IS a TON of indie shovelware out there. However, camp 2 is totally legit.

Look, reselling has always been a thing. So let's go ahead and close that door Craig. If you make ANYTHING, it has a chance of being resold. It's weird to be against this to be honest. It's like saying the stock market shouldn't exist ( as all those shares are a secondary market and the company gets nothing).

I can sympathize if you feel there are just a bunch of crooks buying keys and selling them for 100% profit. But I have yet to hear good enough evidence that a.) buying keys with fraudulent CC is "rampant" or b.) this is even G2A's fault.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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Messages
5,115
According to couple of my friends they all had their Arcania: Fall of Setarrif key bought through G2A on 18th of February 2016 recalled today and got notified via Steam message, citing "potential payment problem" as reason. I'd say G2A is doing them a favor, but have publishers finally stepped up their game?

EDIT:
The Book of Unwritten Tales as well, it seems. No specific date for that one.
 
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Mustawd

Guest


WTF is he talking about when it comes to pawn shops? at best pawn shops will not sell an item for a week or so in case it was stolen. They're not going to be calling the cops every time someone sells something to them. And his example about playing a guitar? Please. My dad owns a guitar and all it does is sit there accumulating dust. He wouldn't know how to play a guitar if you put a gun to his head.


I will say that putting a freeze on large key dumps would be helpful, but G2A is definitely not obligated to do so.
 

Thane Solus

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X-COM Base
Making a good game on some niche doesnt work like it did in the past. If your game doesn't go viral on some sites/yt, it will take an enormous effort to sell 5k-10k in a year, and be sure that more than half will be at a discount (-25,-50,-75). Bundles are cancer for developers if they need money because you sell like 5k copies and get maybe 1k $ ... The only one that worths, is Humble Bundle, but you have to have a good game(or publisher) for them to be put in a bundle which is good, but they promote way too much triple A shovelware.

If you dont participate in bundles and dont give away keys (larger numbers) the only way for them to sale cheap keys is to buy cheap from Russia or similar countries, but that depends on the price set by the developer, so you can avoid large leaks of prices if you are carefull.

The indie shovelware out there is because of Gaben and his no Quality Control on Greenlight. He doesnt give a fuck, so thousands of games are greenlit and overcrowd the market with mobile ports, meme games, hentai shit or unity asset flips, along with jrpg maker games, flash games that should be free and so on. Also the large amount of bundles + jews + these buy cheap sites force some developers to develop safe shovelware games to get money for the next game.

At the same time, there is no new released games, they removed that years ago. There is only popular new released games... cause fuck you. So you are popular you sell more, you are not, work that magic on PR/marketing, polish the game more, and hope for a miracle in the land of Five farts at Suzzy. And like DU pointed out, PR/Marketing for indies is not that the same with triple A studious...

My recommendation for long term indies. Work your way to develop a good player base for your niche, and slowly count Steam out as secondary or third store to sell your game. GOG and Selling on your site can help you reach better audience and decent sale numbers, but its hard to get to this point.

If you are hipster and started to make games because mobile, because everybody is doing it. Stay on mobile and release your garbage there. There is your main target.
 
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Zewp

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Messages
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Codex 2013
And no doubt those keys would have been sold on the totally legitimate and not at all responsible for this situation G2A.
 

Rahdulan

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And no doubt those keys would have been sold on the totally legitimate and not at all responsible for this situation G2A.

Didn't exactly that actually happen with GMG at one point? Or maybe even multiple times, because I remember Black Ops 3 revoked keys, but also Witcher 3 which could've honestly been CDPR wanting to covertly push people to GOG more than anything else so I'm not sure how credible that situation was.
 

Zewp

Arcane
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Messages
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Codex 2013
I didn't follow the Black Ops thing, but wasn't the Witcher 3 saga just because CDProjekt refused to sell GMG any keys and GMG sourced it elsewhere? I think it was about the GMG discounts or something.
 

pippin

Guest
And no doubt those keys would have been sold on the totally legitimate and not at all responsible for this situation G2A.

Didn't exactly that actually happen with GMG at one point? Or maybe even multiple times, because I remember Black Ops 3 revoked keys, but also Witcher 3 which could've honestly been CDPR wanting to covertly push people to GOG more than anything else so I'm not sure how credible that situation was.

GMG is an official Steam reseller, that is, they get their keys directly from Steam. Other sites like Bundlestars get their keys from the devs. If there's a problem with those sites then it's due to publisher butthurt more than anything else.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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The problem with most indie games is that they are shit. Most of them aren't even worth $10, and they usually do go for more. You have to swim through waves and waves of shit to find the good stuff.

Being indies has nothing to do with it, because most games are shit. You will have to swim through waves and waves of shit, if they are indies or not.
 
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Melcar

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Being indies has nothing to do with it, because most games are shit. You will have to swim through waves and waves of shit, if they are indies or not.
I did not say that they are shit because they are indies. I said that most indies are shit. I'm sorry you failed grade school.

ESTOY USANDO MI TELEFONO MEXICANO!
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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And I'm sorry that you have no emotion maturity. My point is that most games, indies or not, are shit. Therefore, mentioning that you have to dig among lots of bad indies to find a decent game is misleading, because it suggests that things would be different with they weren’t indies. I’m not seeing anyone complaining that triple-A garbage is overpriced because most triple-A games are shit. You are talking out of your hat.
 

Melcar

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Messages
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Merida, again
And I'm sorry that you have no emotion maturity. My point is that most games, indies or not, are shit. Therefore, mentioning that you have to dig among lots of bad indies to find a decent game is misleading, because it suggests that things would be different with they weren’t indies. I’m not seeing anyone complaining that triple-A garbage is overpriced because most triple-A games are shit. You are talking out of your hat.
At no time did I made mention to AAA games. You are the one making assumptions. So please fuck off and bother someone else. The Tapatalk notifications are annoying me and I'm at the beach with a pair of hot whores.

Emotional maturity... What a fag.

ESTOY USANDO MI TELEFONO MEXICANO!
 
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LESS T_T

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Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
G2A Scammer Explains How He Profited Off Stolen Indie Game Keys

MangaGamer, a localizer of adult visual novels, wanted to reward customers who’d bought games through their website with free Steam keys. Two years into the promotion, a hacker allegedly used stolen credit cards to fraudulently buy hundreds of games. The scam cost MangaGamer tens of thousands of dollars. Why’d the hacker do it? To sell keys on the controversial marketplace G2A.

No one would blame you if you haven’t heard of MangaGamer before. Their most recent game announcement was for Funbag Fantasy, a visual novel about “a simple man who likes simple things like bread and boobs.” As you might expect, it’s full of nudity and sex. But whatever you think of MangaGamer’s products, they represent something very common in video games: a small, independent developer trying to get by selling games to a niche audience.

“We’re a developer/publisher where every single sale counts,” MangaGamer head translator and public relations director John Pickett recently told me.

When a game is sold on a PC storefront like Steam or GOG, the developer or publisher controls the price and gets most of the profit. Marketplaces like G2A, however, are more like eBay or StubHub. Users bring their own goods to the table.

What they’re bringing to G2A aren’t games they’ve played, but spare keys that activate games, keys they haven’t used for some reason and they’re willing to sell for less than the standard price for a video game. Thanks to those key sales, full-price games can be found for a fraction of the cost on G2A. (I recently bought a copy of Shadow of Mordor on G2A for $7.03. The game sells on Steam for $39.99.) In theory, it’s a way for people with extra keys make a few bucks, and it allows other players to get big discounts. But there’s an element of risk; you can’t guarantee where the key came from or if it’s legitimate.

The MangaGamer situation involves the shadier practices of some G2A users that have given the marketplace a bad reputation, a rep some say G2A deserves. The service has been hit with criticism for a perceived lack of security and scrutiny when it comes to weeding out fraudulent keys. Some keys are allegedly ripped off from companies as small as MangaGamer and as large as Ubisoft. Over the course of my reporting, I reached out to more than a dozen studios, and none had a positive thing to say about G2A. They view the company as uncaring about seriously changing the fraud on its service. Several said they’d prefer players who can’t afford their games use piracy, rather than support G2A.

The name G2A may ring a bell, because, in late June, independent development studio TinyBuild picked a public fight with the company. TinyBuild CEO Alex Nichiporchik claimed they saw their games getting sold on G2A for a fraction of their retail price just after someone used stolen credit cards to purchase keys from their own, personal online store. Infuriated, they alleged G2A was “facilitating a fraud-fueled economy.” TinyBuild felt G2A wasn’t doing enough to weed out and protect developers from from these kinds of keys. Developers do not get a cut from games that are re-sold on G2A, so they had an understandable interest in this problem.

The two responded to each other through the press over the next few days, before G2A rolled out a series of solutions meant to address the issue, including a program where developers can get a 10% cut from game sale. (That program, called G2A Direct, is now alive.) A few weeks later, G2A also revealednew layers of seller authentication, including phone number verification. It’s unclear how big of an impact they’ll have.

“We’d like to be clear that the origin of fraud is not theft of the game codes themselves, but rather stolen credit cards used to purchase codes,” a G2A spokesperson told Kotaku. “That said, we stand shoulder to shoulder with every financial institution and major e-commerce player in the world in the fight against credit card theft. While we do not disclose specific details regarding fraud occurrences, we do know that it is well below average in the industry. Our systems are amongst the most robust in the world when it comes to identifying stolen credit cards. We have world specialists working [to] provide 100% satisfaction guarantees on the G2A’s [sic] Marketplace.”

For two years, MangaGamer’s Steam key promotion was going swimmingly. Then, this past February, it got weird.

“All of a sudden, we saw that there was this one IP address that was creating new accounts, buying new games, and trying to refund them,” said Pickett. “ [...] Why is someone buying 30 copies of the game? That’s not normal user purchasing.”

MangaGamer would ban one account, only to have another pop up. Different credit cards were being used to make the purchases and the volume kept increasing. It was whack-a-mole. At the same time, MangaGamer alerted their payment processor, the company that handles their online transactions. The payment processor makes their money by taking a cut from each sale.

As MangaGamer was trying to get a hold of what was going on, their payment processor would realize the credit cards in question were stolen and issue a chargeback fee to MangaGamer. (This can also happen with a disputed transaction.) The chargeback fee for MangaGamer was $30 per sale.

(A different online company, choosing to remain anonymous, told me this was high but “not unheard of, especially when someone is hit with a spike of chargebacks.” Both sets of numbers were backed up by data analytics firm CNP Solutions, which specializes in online payments.)

“When a chargeback occurs on purchase of a $40 game,” said Pickett, “we lose both the $40 from the canceled sale, and take a $30 penalty. So at a hundred fraudulent purchases, that’s $3,000 lost; $30,000 if there are 1000 keys stolen.”

A spokesperson for Humble Bundle, which only sells keys to customers, told me the company was once forced to stomach $34,000 in chargebacks fees in 24 hours from a sale of games in 2012.

“We learned our lesson the hard way,” said Humble Bundle director of product Nate Muller. (Just this week, the company revealed the detailed steps it takes to avoid those problems in 2016.)

These money headaches are why MangaGamer does everything it can to avoid credit card disputes. The fees are often more than the original sale.

In this case, the chargebacks were happening frequently enough that MangaGamer’s payment processor dropped them as a client. MangaGamer could no longer distribute Steam keys, and, even worse, couldn’t sell anythingonline.

“It was quite a nightmare,” said Pickett. “I think one of our managers calculated how much we were losing each day by not being in business, and it was not a number to laugh at.”

Pre-orders had already been taken for MangaGamer’s next release, but without any way to process transactions, those had to be dumped, and everything in their schedule was put on hold.

“It took us one or two months to find [a] new payment processor because of how difficult it is to find people who will handle our content and give us a rate that we can still make a profit at,” he said.

(In most cases, payment processors take a 3% cut off each sale. In the adult entertainment business, it’s 10% or more because payment processors consider it a “high-risk transaction.”)

In February, the company published a blog post explaining the frantic situation. The news was picked up by a few publications and made the rounds on social media. Under a post on Facebook, one person’s comment gave MangaGamer pause. It came from someone openly claiming to have been the person who stole the keys from them.

“Muuumuaaaaaywhuwhwuhweuuwhe,” they wrote. “I got a lot of keys, grateful hahahahahaha.”

There didn’t seem to be a way to determine if that was the same same person. Maybe it was a jerk looking for attention? Recently, I sent that person a message on Facebook. To my surprise, they responded and agreed to an interview. I asked the individual to provide receipts from their fraudulent purchases, which they did. I showed them to MangaGamer, which cross-referenced with their database and confirmed they were legitimate. This was the person who stole the keys.

“To be honest, I’m doing it [committing fraud] all that time,” said the Facebook user, who claimed his name is Vitor Reis. We spoke in a Skype text window about what he’d done and why. To prove his identity he showed me a censored version of his Brazilian ID. Reis’ English was not very good, and at times, he was clearly pasting answers to my questions through a web translator.

He agreed to speak with me because, according to him, there’s nothing to hide. Reis claims he’s a “famous hacker” in Brazil, breaking into government websites and leading a hacking group called Proto Wave. On Proto Wave’s Facebook page, the organization posts images of the websites it’s reportedly compromised. Several appear to be official pages for the Brazilian government.

“I do not think my hacking helps Brazil directly,” he said, “but encourages Brazilians to protest.”

That doesn’t explain why he slammed MangaGamer with credit card chargebacks that cost the company thousands, but his motivations are simple: it’s fun, easy, and without consequences.

“Someone rarely is caught by practicing such a crime,” he said.

Reis doesn’t make money off a chargeback. He makes money by selling the Steam keys. The chargebacks aren’t triggered immediately, so he’s getting the keys before the payment processor has time to investigate (or be alerted to) stolen credit cards. Chargebacks can occur days, weeks, or months later, which means Reis has plenty of time to sell the Steam key sent to his email address.

“This is easy and very basic,” he said. “In minutes you can hide your tracks. [...] You do not need a gun to steal, just your fingers and patience.”

This is what complicates the situation for companies like MangaGamer; if the Steam key has been sold on G2A or another marketplace, it may be in the hands of a person who thinks they’ve legitimately paid for a key. There’s no way for that person to know the key they bought is tainted, and it’s often too late for MangaGamer to try to deactivate the key.

Ubisoft famously deactivated thousands of keys it later discovered were purchased with stolen credit cards, then sold on marketplaces like G2A. After public outrage, it left the keys active. When MangaGamer cancelled its stolen Steam keys, it didn’t hear from any disgruntled players.

Reis said he made more than $500 by re-selling the keys he stole from MangaGamer on G2A.

“G2A [is one of the] great sites to sell fraudulent keys,” he said, referencing another key-selling site, as well. “The keys of commerce [are] quick and easy, and there is [not] much bureaucracy.”

Though G2A has not specifically responded to my questions about this incident, the company admitted it was distressed about the growing reputation that it’s become untrustworthy.

“We are listening to the feedback, and after that, making improvements,” said G2A CEO Skwarczek in an interview with me a few weeks ago. “Sometimes it is harsh. Sometimes when we see these articles, they are not very nice, but we understand that [it’s] our [job] to show people how it is from our point of view.”

The company told me recent events have not impacted their bottom line. Just today, G2A launched G2A Direct, allowing developers to sell keys to consumers through G2A, run keys through a database in search of fraudulent sales, and receive up to a 10% cut on third-party auctions.

It’s unclear if that could or would stop someone like Reis. He claimed he was exploiting a security flaw with MangaGamer’s payment processor, but he’s not Robin Hood. Reis was stealing the keys and selling them for financial gain.

“To be honest, yes, I feel sorry,” he said. “I have saved the mangagamer, [sic] the damage could be much worse.”

That’s one way to look at it.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
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7,817
“When a chargeback occurs on purchase of a $40 game,” said Pickett, “we lose both the $40 from the canceled sale, and take a $30 penalty. So at a hundred fraudulent purchases, that’s $3,000 lost; $30,000 if there are 1000 keys stolen.”

It would probably be easier and more profitable to just sell exclusively through other platforms.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Question: If it's this easy, how come this does not affect something like Amazon vendors? I mean you can theoretically biy a ton of merchandise, have it fed exed to a location that you have easy access to but is untraceable, and sell it on the black market (out of your trunk).
 

pippin

Guest
“When a chargeback occurs on purchase of a $40 game,” said Pickett, “we lose both the $40 from the canceled sale, and take a $30 penalty. So at a hundred fraudulent purchases, that’s $3,000 lost; $30,000 if there are 1000 keys stolen.”

It would probably be easier and more profitable to just sell exclusively through other platforms.

MangaGamer does offer direct downloads from their site :M
 

Mustawd

Guest
Not sure of the platform is the issue if they're using the same payment processor accross platforms.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Question: If it's this easy, how come this does not affect something like Amazon vendors? I mean you can theoretically biy a ton of merchandise, have it fed exed to a location that you have easy access to but is untraceable, and sell it on the black market (out of your trunk).
I'm sure some people are doing that as well, but it's riskier and more work than purely digital scams.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
10,055
I would assume most credit card theft involving physical purchases is done in person at stores rather than shipping, granted someone could probably use a fake id and a stolen credit card to get a PO box/foreign equivalents but it still represents a specific place police could find you at.
 

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