Free will is impossible in a deterministic universe

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Sam Harris's talk:



pretty much sums up my views on the subject. His short thought experiments are a pretty neat way to ask questions relating to conciousness

I always knew this, but what difference does it make?

Umm... duh?

Absolutely none. I believe in determinism. I believe that if you were copied and had to make the same choices, you'd make the same choice. Who cares? You still make the choices. Even if you're predictable. What's so wrong about being predictable? It makes behavioural psychology so much easier.

Free will is meaningless in an indeterministic universe as well, because you can't make any choices if you can't take action to change anything in a conscious way. What does it change? If free will exists, great. If it doesn't, you still feel like you have it.

So, do we live in a Bioware or Bethesda universe?

Life sucks, regardless of whether free will exists or not.

Jews, Jews never change.

Surf is trying to deal with his depression by getting even more depressed.



By the way we do not live in a deterministic universe. it becomes deterministic to you only if you start believing it is so. Which is rather silly thing to do.

We live in an expanding field/web or probabilities.
So you may guess, probably, how smart move it is to limit yourself, more than necessary.

Schuon to the rescue:



We have free will, but only in a relative sense. Our will is free only in so far as it concerns us, but it is relative in so far as it concerns God, who is absolute. We are a reflection of this absolute, so we are made to its likeness in every sense, including in its liberty. But being a reflection, we are relative, in the sense our existence is not real. Only God is real.

Derpy random events, generic characters, fairly open ended, lots of bugs. Let me guess...

from his famous "depression is where its at" class.

Dont you Uh me mister. first that thread about most depressing things youve seen now this.

You need to smoke one, pronto.

The problem is the definition of free will. Here is an archaic article I wrote about the issue. I recently started a new project to rewrite all that stuff. But free will is a very high order idea and will have to wait rewriting:

http://lastubermensch.blogspot.in/2010/11/free-will.html

Your argument seems to be based upon the thought that denial of free will is detrimental to society?

False dichotomy.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

Its not based on that. Rather its consequence (something that is less fundamental) is detrimental.

First one should prove that universe IS deterministic and then go further. Didn't watch the vid (and wont), but i'm sure the guy didn't do that. Don't think it is possible either way. Not with the help of science anyhow. It can only deal with degrees of determinism and only in probabilistic manner.

Either you don't understand what ''relative'' means or you have your own and only lyricsuitian one that has no bearing on traditional.

What consequential sense does that make? It's yet another empty rhetorical passage. It doesn't matter if you think we live in ''illusion''. We still exist. You can call our world whatever name you want, like Belly Of A Blind Transdymensional Hippo and compare it with some mythical 'absolute' (which you still haven't defined) and we and our environment would still be just as real. The fact that it's temporal is irrelevant to it's realness.

I can't figure out what the "free" in "free will" is supposed to mean.

In some christianic sense probably that you should be able to bend the space-time continuum if you wanted to. Or close to that.

Compatibilism defines free will in a very different way from the traditional free will.

My argument has always been that I'm predictable to myself - hence actions must be deterministic. The idea that I'm not predictable to myself is fucking scary, because it means that the conscious me is not in control at all, but rather a number generator. In that way I feel it's important for individuality to be predictable and by that deterministic.