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FPS with mazelike/quality leveldesign

Carrion

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I wonder if there's an Action-Adventure Codex somewhere that constantly goes through the same discussions about what an action-adventure actually is. It's a genre that includes pretty much every game that has action but isn't an FPS, RPG or strategy game, from Outcast to GTA and from Blade of Darkness to Tomb Raider.

That being said, I can agree on giving the action-adventure tag to JK2, but JK1 is very much an FPS.
 
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I would agree in reference to the one by id software (although I didn't find it THAT boring, but yeah, it was a glorified tech demo), but the sequels are very enjoyable.

They had their charm and were mercifully short, especially if you used these "skip levels" secret teleports.

I don't get anyone can have fun wiht game that consist of spamming the same kind of fireball over and over again, occasionally using 3-fireball items wow. I like many of Wolfenstein's level of evolution shooters like Fears, Gloom, Alien Breed 3D, Isle of the Dead, Genetic Species etc. but this one is just too primitive.
 

sexbad?

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Chaser, more than decade old Slovak sci-fi FPS. Hellishly hard combat, huge levels, not intended for modern gamers or pussies! Dirty cheap on GOG btw.
Chaser is terrible. Enemies have high accuracy but seemingly no AI otherwise. I also remember nothing remarkable about the level design. Slow motion helps a bit, but the amount of enemies and their telescopic fucking vision makes it s chore.
 

Doktor Best

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Btw, how do guys you percieve a perfect mazelike level design ?
Depends on the genre.

For FPS Doom pretty much nails it as the leveldesign is complex enough to keep me thinking about navigation through the level, but doesnt overdo it as the pacing would take a nosedive otherwise. And pacing is key to a good shooter.

If were talking about sidescroller then id say Super Metroid is mazelike 2d platforming in perfection. You have plenty of secrets, you unlock abilities to unlock both more platforming skills and combat skills, progress is fairly nonlinear and always interesting.

When it comes to dungeoncrawler then id also say chaos strikes back is perfect for its genre. The level of interconnectivity is too complex for shooters though.
 

Fowyr

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I don't get anyone can have fun wiht game that consist of spamming the same kind of fireball over and over again, occasionally using 3-fireball items wow. I like many of Wolfenstein's level of evolution shooters like Fears, Gloom, Alien Breed 3D, Isle of the Dead, Genetic Species etc. but this one is just too primitive.
But you spam different kinds of fireball! Weak and strong! :M
It short, sometimes has signs of brilliance in design of secret areas and overall enjoyable.
Too primitive for me is Hovertank.

And Catacombs give you your FPS fix much better than something like Lethal Tender. Ugh.
 

DraQ

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I don't get anyone can have fun wiht game that consist of spamming the same kind of fireball over and over again, occasionally using 3-fireball items wow. I like many of Wolfenstein's level of evolution shooters like Fears, Gloom, Alien Breed 3D, Isle of the Dead, Genetic Species etc. but this one is just too primitive.
:salute:

I think it's pretty safe to consider FPS games below original Doom's level of complexity obsolete - they just don't have enough to work with to create proper experience - no proper level design, too simple gameplay, little room for atmosphere or art direction - while technically, well, duh.

You need at least something like Doom for staying power, anything less if of historical interest only, sort of like with original Elite.
 

octavius

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Seriously, didn't you have any fun with (unmodded) original Wolf3D? Even in 90'?
Back then? Yeah. Nowadays? Nope.
That's the definition of "obsolete", is it not?

There is too little to Wolf 3D for it to not simply be superseded by later games. It's in no way unique in that, such is the fate of pioneers.

I played Wolfenstein 3D last year, but there was nothing that grabbed me, and it felt totally obsolete.
But other pioneers have stood the test of time, like Wizardry 1, another game I only played first a couple of years ago.
 
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ZagorTeNej

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Itf2dmO.jpg

The only person with shit taste on display is you.

Problem? Shoot first.
 
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Back then? Yeah. Nowadays? Nope.
That's the definition of "obsolete", is it not?

There is too little to Wolf 3D for it to not simply be superseded by later games. It's in no way unique in that, such is the fate of pioneers.

Obviously RtCW>>>>>>>Wolf3D but I would still choose the latter over 99% of modern shooters.
 

DraQ

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Back then? Yeah. Nowadays? Nope.
That's the definition of "obsolete", is it not?

There is too little to Wolf 3D for it to not simply be superseded by later games. It's in no way unique in that, such is the fate of pioneers.

Obviously RtCW>>>>>>>Wolf3D but I would still choose the latter over 99% of modern shooters.
Probably depends on which modern shooters, but still, even a failed FPRPG like Oblivion would probably offer a better FPS experience than Wolf 3D. When you are limited to garish, planar rectangular rooms and three weapons differing only in rate of fire, the tech is *the* ultimate game changer.

It was much less so in case of Doom engine which suffered much less severe limitations, and, after a transition period of Build Engine games and the likes came Quake and from this point (and if not, then from Unreal), at least in terms of mapping potential, all FPS engines are pretty much created equal - it's only the question of what you do with them.
The gameplay had a bit longer period of straightforward advancement, but I don't think there is much in FPSes that could be made better by simple technical advancement - maybe destructible stuff.

And I never really liked RTCW that much.
:M
 

DraQ

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:retarded:
Doom has chainsaw "melee action" as well. As well as Witchaven that suddenly, according to you, is not FPS.
Even Blood had "platforming" level (bowels of Tchernobog or something, E4m7, I think)

DF2 just FPS with a story like many others after Half-Life or, hell, even Strife.
You would be hard pressed to find FPS without melee weapon of some sort...
JK is a different beast.
You are ignoring the degree to which lightsaber combat is developed and present in those games, as well as amount and design of platforming...
I'm not going to mention Hexens, as you'll probably claim they're RPGs or something, but try playing, say, Blood on Extra Crispy. The amount of pitchfork fencing you'll engage in it out of necessity (ammo conservation) is unreal.
Speaking of Unreal, it and Quake 2 are two FPSes that come to mind that lack melee weapons (also Unreal 2 but let's... just not talk about this one).

As for platforming, it's become common FPS element right after Dooms, HL even managed to become quite infamous for its platforming sections.
 

:Flash:

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If you really want crazy level design, try Madspace. This is not a recommendation for the game, but if you are curious about level design, it is a must try.
 

pippin

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I replayed Wolf3d recently and it was fun, honestly. For all the complains about how easy it is to get lost, I actually didn't had a hard time finding my way (and the secrets) through every level. Played without a walkthrough but managed to find almost every secret on my own.
I will always find curious how the game has like 3 weapons yet many people think it's a bad thing that many shooters, especially modern ones, force you to carry 2 or 3 at most.
 

Fowyr

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Played without a walkthrough but managed to find almost every secret on my own.
:salute:
Back in the day I found them all too (even AARDWOLF), but it was a lot of space pressing.
 

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