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FPS with mazelike/quality leveldesign

shihonage

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Yes yes, your religious objections have been noted on a thousand different occasions.
 

Dayyālu

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Quake 4 is probably still the best-looking FPS that feels sufficiently old-school.

Prey is superior in all accounts. Level Design, Weapon Design, Enemy Design, theme.

Heck, even the new DOOM seems more old-school that Quake IV, from the videos. I mean, it's better than Quake 2, but we are talking about Quake 2. Quake IV is a military shooter in the Doom3 engine, with some much-needed advances like vehicle sections to endure the drab design.

It's pretty, at least. Who the heck thought we needed plot in Quake?
 

DraQ

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Anyway, from less known games there is Eradicator.
It's kind of bland in a Quake 2 kind of way, but OTOH there are tons of novel gameplay elements in it - you get three characters, tons of weapons including quite a few remotely guided ones, ToP-esque power up chips for weapons, shmup-style sidekicks (in an FPS) and so on.

Not a first league material by any means but definitely worth trying at least.
 

Gerrard

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Jedi Outcast had some of the worst level design in history and I will repeat this till the end of the world.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Fuck Quake > 1.
Quake 3 was good for what it set out to do. It just wasn't, well, Quake 3. Neither was Quake 2 or 4 for that matter. It's more like Quake, Strogg, id Arena and Strogg 2. Why id kept the name is beyond me. Marketing?

I wouldn't say it's mazelike, but IIRC, Return to Castle Wolfenstein was nicely designed.
 

DraQ

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Fuck Quake > 1.
Quake 3 was good for what it set out to do. It just wasn't, well, Quake 3. Neither was Quake 2 or 4 for that matter. It's more like Quake, Strogg, id Arena and Strogg 2. Why id kept the name is beyond me. Marketing?

I wouldn't say it's mazelike, but IIRC, Return to Castle Wolfenstein was nicely designed.
I'm not particularly bitter about 3 but CBA to make an exception and I still prefer the UT.

Q2 commited two cardinal sins of being:
  1. Bland and homogeneous.
  2. Criminally easy.
and thus marked the death of Id as far as I'm concerned.
+M
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'm not a fan either, I'm just saying they're practically not in the same series.
 

shihonage

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Quake 4 is probably still the best-looking FPS that feels sufficiently old-school.

Prey is superior in all accounts. Level Design, Weapon Design, Enemy Design, theme.

Heck, even the new DOOM seems more old-school that Quake IV, from the videos. I mean, it's better than Quake 2, but we are talking about Quake 2. Quake IV is a military shooter in the Doom3 engine, with some much-needed advances like vehicle sections to endure the drab design.

It's pretty, at least. Who the heck thought we needed plot in Quake?

I got a lot farther in Quake 4 than I did in Prey. Prey has gone full retard with its portal puzzles, committing the same crimes as Half-Life 2, i.e. killing the pacing. It was a largely front-loaded game that degraded into masturbatory mediocrity.

Quake 4 was no more drab-looking than D44M. In fact I prefer its visual style to D44M.

Quake 2 had monotonous visuals, but the actual level design in the campaign was consistently great to the end. Probably the apex of id software level design.
 

Siveon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Probably the apex of id software level design.
I disagree. It was good, but it certainly wasn't the best, what with the back tracking (many id games suffer from this, but Q2 made it feel slower imo) and sometimes predictable enemy placements. Compared to some of the best levels in Doom 2 and Quake, it's just no contest. Crap I'm doing DraQ's job.

I would also like to recommend Dark Forces as well, simply for the fact I don't think it gets the attention it deserves. That game plays very handsomely, same goes for the more celebrated Dark Forces 2. Though DF2 has these hilariously odd light saber duels that don't really work. It's a bop-fest.
 

octavius

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IGI-2 has some good (unlinear) level design. A very underrated game IMO.
What about the first game? I bought it back then but it wouldn't run on my computer. Looked cool though.

Never played the first one, or even saw it for sale in stores. And GOG only sells the second one, so I haven't had a chance to try it out. But from what I've heard it's even better than the second.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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IGI-2 has some good (unlinear) level design. A very underrated game IMO.
What about the first game? I bought it back then but it wouldn't run on my computer. Looked cool though.
The first game is ok. From what I remember, it had a cool-looking terrain engine and most missions were pretty varied, but the devs decided to go full retard and introduce enemy respawn about halfway through the game, which was a pleasant surprise in a supposedly realistic shooter without mid-game saves.

Oh, and the music was pretty cool.
 

Carrion

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What about the first game? I bought it back then but it wouldn't run on my computer. Looked cool though.
The levels were usually huge outdoor areas with lots of empty terrain and an enemy base or two sprinkled around them. The levels were big mostly because it allowed for some extreme long-range sniping, and also because of the coolness factor (screw invisible walls), but most of it was there just for show. The focus was in infiltrating enemy bases, doing something and getting out. The levels were open-ended and usually allowed you to approach the bases from any direction, but they were certainly not something you could get lost in, as the bases weren't usually all that huge, and you had access to super accurate satellite maps and other technological tools. One notable problem with the level design was that it started to feel kind of the same after a while, as the game recycled the same buildings over and over again with minor changes, and the environment stayed pretty much the same as well, except for the weather conditions and the time of day. Still a very cool game and worth a play, but not necessarily what the OP is looking for. The closest comparison would probably be the Delta Force series, which also has huge maps and a somewhat similar approach to overall gameplay.

From what I remember, it had a cool-looking terrain engine and most missions were pretty varied, but the devs decided to go full retard and introduce enemy respawn about halfway through the game, which was a pleasant surprise in a supposedly realistic shooter without mid-game saves.
Yeah. I have no idea what they were thinking, because the respawns damn near ruin the game. Some enemies just respawn infinitely while others only respawn when an alarm is sounded, and it can and will lead to some pretty infuriating situations. You may take out an enemy guard with a sniper rifle from afar just to find out that the same guard is again standing there once you get inside the base. You may clear a room, exit it and then get immediately shot in the back by an enemy that didn't even exist five seconds earlier (it's especially fun when it happens twenty minutes into the mission). In one mission you need to escape a base without setting off the alarm (if that happens, the gates will close and you will have to go open them again), and on one playthrough I cleared the whole damn base about half-a-dozen times before I was able to get out — all without restarting the mission even once.
 

Soulcucker

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Probably the apex of id software level design.
I would also like to recommend Dark Forces as well, simply for the fact I don't think it gets the attention it deserves. That game plays very handsomely, same goes for the more celebrated Dark Forces 2. Though DF2 has these hilariously odd light saber duels that don't really work. It's a bop-fest.

Don't forget the expansion for DF2, Mysteries of the Sith. From what I remember it had some large and expansive levels, better than original game.
 
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Descent 1 and 2 have some ultra cool levels, labyrinthine and the gameplay is very tense. The music is also very good. However, it's been many years since I've last played it and wouldn't know how playable it is today - I'd certainly recommend a proper joystick for it. I don't know if there's anything like a new interpreter for Descent that would make it visually more palatable, like we have for Doom .wads.

I remember getting a kick out of Witchaven (it's a lesser-known build engine game), but I also remember it being super buggy.

Jedi Knight (DF2) had some pretty cool levels. Later games are pretty shit by comparison. Out of the 'classic shooter revival' games of the mid-00s, I think the first Painkiller had some cool levels and secrets.
 

Fowyr

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As others said, Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Terminator: Futureshock.

My version of Exhumed was very buggy and constantly crashed.

Redneck Rampage: Sucking Grit on Route 666 was better than original.

Try Cybermage: Darklight Awakening. It's amazing game.

Also - BLAKE STONE! It's a shooter by Apogee running on the Wolf3D engine. In my experience, barely anyone has even heard about that one, while the game is pretty excellent.
I finished it. Was pretty good. :M
 

shihonage

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I disagree. It was good, but it certainly wasn't the best, what with the back tracking (many id games suffer from this, but Q2 made it feel slower imo) and sometimes predictable enemy placements. Compared to some of the best levels in Doom 2 and Quake, it's just no contest.

You can compare Quake 2 to "some of the best levels", or you can compare the campaign as a whole. I choose to do the latter. Doom 2 feels like a collection of maps with uneven difficulty spikes and design ideas, while Quake 2 campaign feels like a clear progression with gradually increasing difficulty curve (cue DraQ complaining about how easy it was) and steadily introduced variety of enemies. It also tries to have a narrative without ever doing Half-Life retardation on you. The world of Quake 2 feels like it all fits together, while Doom 2 was a collection of random monsters in a collection of "experimental" level designs.

For the lack of a better word, Quake 2 campaign feels "mature", while Doom 2 campaign is like a diamond-in-the-rough teenager with occasional sparks of brilliance.

Of course the core strength of Doom 2 compared to Quake 2 is the gameplay mechanics themselves, as the enemies, power-ups and weaponry just mesh together better, but that's a somewhat different topic.

Oh and Quake 2 backtracking has nothing on stuff like Hexen. Maybe it's because I nearly passed Hexen, which was an insane fucking game, but Quake 2 backtracking seemed just perfect in length and "puzzliness" to me.
 

Doktor Best

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Plenty of decent suggestions here. Its just sad that this breed of shooters has died out. Guess im a bit spoiled by the kickstarter era crpgs, cause hate them or love them, they definitely sparked some diversity into the genre. And i guess thats what this genre also needs badly.
 

Dayyālu

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Prey has gone full retard with its portal puzzles, committing the same crimes as Half-Life 2, i.e. killing the pacing. It was a largely front-loaded game that degraded into masturbatory mediocrity.

Quake 4 was no more drab-looking than D44M. In fact I prefer its visual style to D44M.

Quake 2 had monotonous visuals, but the actual level design in the campaign was consistently great to the end. Probably the apex of id software level design.

while Quake 2 campaign feels like a clear progression with gradually increasing difficulty curve and steadily introduced variety of enemies.

It also tries to have a narrative

The world of Quake 2 feels like it all fits together

For the lack of a better word, Quake 2 campaign feels "mature"

but Quake 2 backtracking seemed just perfect in length and "puzzliness" to me.

:backawayslowly:

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I never fail to be surprised about how differently people view Quake 2. To me, it's, well, worse than Daikatana.

At least Daikatana is retarded, and sometimes fun retarded.
 

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