Fallout NV's factions / characters are retarded?

[Tigranes]

"Really? And do you think that, even if there was a nuclear war, no one in the afterworld would remember a pop icon like Elvis Presley? Did they forget about Mozart, too? Why? That is retarded."

Why is it retarded? The Elvis faction is silly, but you seem to know for sure what does and doesn't get forgotten after an apocalypse. Our own history is full of stuff that very few people remember but contemporaries might have expected to be remembered - and stuff we don't even know we've forgotten.

"WHY would you LARP so hard as to actually qualify as circus clowns?"

Same reason every king fapped over the name of the Empire a thousand years after its fall. I've posted this before, but it's entirely reasonable that a scholarly minded man like Caesar would come across the historical texts and deliberately create a spectacular, iconic imitation, using the iconography to create a further sense of cohesion and historical destiny. What is silly is importing some of the Roman policies that really don't make much sense in the Wasteland, given how pragmatic Caesar is (e.g. the valorisation of premodern weaponry - this would only make sense if Caesar thought there's a widespread scarcity of kinetic and energy weapons, but this doesn't seem to be the case).

Boomers always seemed to me a reasonable premise (the fetishisation of old world military power, and precisely one remarkable power that seems to be nearly entirely lost) that never got developed and became a dumb caricature (also, NCR has vertibirds).

 

[Severian Silk]

Who is Elvis Presley?

 

[laclongquan]

In the days of CHinese Warring States, there's hundred of schools of thought, with Confucianism was second place to Legalism. Who would know that after a hundred year they all nearly disappear, and Confucianism get to be 1st place for next thousands of years ?

You just cant say what will stick with people in future. There's no telling.

As for a singer compared with God, I will remind people that there's used to a group with more albums sold more than the Bibble, by god! And other groups or solo singers with video of more than billion hits. It is not for you to say which will be popular with people and will stay in their minds.

The Elvis presley gang is no more ridiculous than the Celtic with their painted blue skin, their kilt, their pantheon of Northen god. Or the Japanese who believe that Sun Goddess' descendant is their royal bloodline. That's ethnological phenomena . You have problem with Elvis gang that is YOUR personal problem. Objectively speaking, The Kings is fine.

 

[Zanzoken]

I can see the argument that factions in FO:NV are over-the-top colorful, but I think there is a good counter-argument too.

In a place like the wasteland you have lawlessness right? Society breaks down, every man for himself, etc. People are too busy trying to eat -- and not get eaten -- to worry much about social cooperation or group dynamics on a large scale.

The way to counteract this basic survival instinct -- and redirect it toward a unified goal -- is to supersede it with another instinct. Namely, the instinct to identify with and participate in a group. It works because the group has numbers -- which inherently increases the chance of survival -- but also because you're creating a cultural identity. You're giving people something to buy into, something larger than just themselves. And considering how sheep-like most people are -- and how they crave structure and conformity -- it's a pretty effective means of establishing control.

Ed Sallow chose to use the Roman Empire as his model and style himself Caesar. This may seem ridiculous but when the general populace knows next to nothing of world history, why would it be any less effective than it was the first time around? The success of the Romans in conquering and integrating disparate peoples was precisely why Sallow picked them as his inspiration.

So yeah, it does take a little suspension of disbelief sometimes, as is true in pretty much all fiction. But in the context of the game's setting I don't believe the Legion -- or the Kings or the Boomers or whoever else -- are so implausible as to ruin the experience.

 

[laclongquan]

Something like a Legion faction is actually very possible in USA post apocalypse.

1. American football is like an universal religion in the continent, widespread and with many common commandments.
2. the football equipments are also widespread and will be present anywhere there's a clothes mall, sport stores, and a school.
3. The equipment is pretty close to the frame of leather armor, so it's easy work to change a scavenged suit into a padded armor, and much superior to a made-from-scratch leather armor.
4. There's a lot of book regarding Roman era in any school library, let alone home stashes.

A faction like that can easily find big number of similar equipments in any settled lands, provided they dont get scavenged before. So that it allow uniformity.

 

[Alt]

In the days of CHinese Warring States, there's hundred of schools of thought, with Confucianism was second place to Legalism. Who would know that after a hundred year they all nearly disappear, and Confucianism get to be 1st place for next thousands of years ?

You just cant say what will stick with people in future. There's no telling.

As for a singer compared with God, I will remind people that there's used to a group with more albums sold more than the Bibble, by god! And other groups or solo singers with video of more than billion hits. It is not for you to say which will be popular with people and will stay in their minds.

The Elvis presley gang is no more ridiculous than the Celtic with their painted blue skin, their kilt, their pantheon of Northen god. Or the Japanese who believe that Sun Goddess' descendant is their royal bloodline. That's ethnological phenomena . You have problem with Elvis gang that is YOUR personal problem. Objectively speaking, The Kings is fine.

Yet you still know about those other schools of thoughts or can learn about them, no? And don't say "But there was a nuclear war!!" With thousands of people surviving in underground bunkers, major historical events and especially pop culture icons that were still so close before the outbreak of the war would not just be erased from people's memories, they would clearly still be there and then be filtered down onto later generations, as per usual. While it can be assumed that knowledge wouldn't be as universal and wide-spread - because of the lack of television and communities being more isolated and smaller - it is highly implausible that people, especially those living in a hub like New Vegas, would not know exactly who Elvis was. Maybe not every single one of them, but a whole gang playing "we don't quite know about him" is retarded, because surely at some point they would have gotten the news about who that character was exactly.

I don't see how that is so hard for some people to understand, to me it feels like you are just trying hard to defend retarded writing. And seriously claiming that such a retarded 100 something people strong group like "The Kings" is no more ridiculous than a major European ethnicity / culture like the Celts "with their Northern Gods" reeks of arrogance and ignorance. It is exactly NOT how it works. "The Kings" is how a retarded person would try to explain how religion / cultures spring into existence. In reality it is much more unclear and even for those cultures themselves, their foundations / creation myths are shrouded in mystery. It is neither transcribed nor plausible that one day some guy just "decided" hey, let's worship this guy / tree / invisible being and build a cult around him / it, just for its own sake. Such a person would usually be viewed as mental by his surroundings and not taken seriously. And even when you have single actors forming a cult, it is usually in connection to or a variant of a pre-existent belief-system that itself traces back into "times of myth", for lack of a better word.

Besides, "The Kings" in Vegas is not even meant to be a culture like the Celts, that's just a nonsensical connection you brought up. It's just meant to be a simple gang culture thing and my only beef with it is that the premise for it is retarded for the reasons I stated at the top of this post.

@ Zanzoken

I get the herd mentality of people and the need to define and identify your group, especially in times of scarcity of resources, but the point is that most of the factions in NV are formed on premises and "logic" akin to what 5 year olds in the playground would come up with. "Hey, we're da Romans, and now we gonna beat you up because you entered our part of the woods!!" And again, same as with Elvis, the ROMANS, the ROMAN EMPIRE would NOT just be forgotten by later Generations only because there was a nuclear war. Not with many thousands of people surviving, including scientists etc. Think about how many calamities have swept over Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire, which could be argued to be similiar in devastation on culture and social life as a nuclear war would be (think the Mongols, think the Black Death, 100 years war, 30 years war etc), there is no reason to think the Roman Empire would be swept out of the general knowledge when societies did continue to survive in underground bunkers and relatively intact. So, anyone who would be playing Roman soldier in the real world would probably be met with ridicule, thus sabotaging his chance to gain traction already in the crucial initial stages. Taking lessons from the Roman Empire and building on them, maybe even emulating it politically? Sure. But LARPing it like it is portrayed in NV? I don't think so.

 

[Infinitron]

The Kings don't actually talk about Elvis or do Elvisy things. They certainly aren't shown worshipping him. They don't even know his name. It's really mostly an aesthetic affectation (the clothes, the hair and the accent which most of them don't even have). Most are probably imitating their leader and not Elvis directly.

As for Caesar, he's much easier to understand once you realize he's an L. Ron Hubbard/Scientology-style cult leader. Internalize that, and the fact that he's led the Legion for decades, and things start to make more sense.

tl;dr Whose alt is this?

 

[Alt]

The Kings don't actually talk about Elvis or do Elvisy things. They certainly aren't shown worshipping him. They don't even know his name. It's really mostly an aesthetic affectation (the clothes, the hair and the accent which most of them don't even have). Most are probably imitating their leader and not Elvis directly.

As for Caesar, he's much easier to understand once you realize he's an L. Ron Hubbard Scientology-style cult leader. Internalize that, and the fact that he's led the Legion for decades, and things start to make more sense.

tl;dr Whose alt is this?

You may address me as Caesar.

 

[laclongquan]

Boyo you are so full of shit. I like it that you bash on my weaker point of the Kings, ignore my stronger points yet attack other at those exact things.

For one thing, the Vegas gangs are not exactly tribals with deep roots. They are tribals who refuse to submit to Mr House, yet still try to cling to the outskirt of Las Vegas to make a living. Yeah, they can live, but what are they, exactly? What is their identity? They are no longer tribals live in the wild, and call themselves ... what?

To imitate the cool Elvis Presley with the Regent hair, the slick move, the charismatic songs... to fit themselves in the town lifestyle. I dont see why not?

Are you telling me you think Elvis Presley is not cool? Huh Alt ? What are you?

 

[Tigranes]

"I don't see how that is so hard for some people to understand, to me it feels like you are just trying hard to defend retarded writing."

We explained to you what you cannot understand, but you will neither understand, or explain yourself properly.

""logic" akin to what 5 year olds in the playground would come up with."

Yes, this is exactly what you're doing when you go into "BUT GAH DUMBASSES ITS OBVIOUS THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN DUH"

 

[Alt]

Boyo you are so full of shit.

For one thing, the Vegas gangs are not exactly tribals with deep roots. They are tribals who refuse to submit to Mr House, yet still try to cling to the outskirt of Las Vegas to make a living. Yeah, they can live, but what are they, exactly? What is their identity? They are no longer tribals live in the wild, and call themselves ... what?

To imitate the cool Elvis Presley with the Regent hair, the slick move, the charismatic songs... to fit themselves in the town lifestyle. I dont see why not?

Are you telling me you think Elvis Presley is not cool? Huh Alt ? What are you?

To be honest, it is pretty hard for me to decipher your ramblings.

Might be a culture thing.

 

[Alt]

"I don't see how that is so hard for some people to understand, to me it feels like you are just trying hard to defend retarded writing."

We explained to you what you cannot understand, but you will neither understand, or explain yourself properly.

""logic" akin to what 5 year olds in the playground would come up with."

Yes, this is exactly what you're doing when you go into "BUT GAH DUMBASSES ITS OBVIOUS THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN DUH"

You explained nothing. All you are saying is that those factions are perfectly plausible, for world famous pop culture icons and gigantic historic empires would simply vanish out of collective memory because people lived underground for a few decades, so no one would burst out in laughter when a street gang centers their identity around Elvis while pretending to not really know about him, or the Legion being plausible because "some smart guy was lucky to find a book" about the Roman empire and then LARPing it even to the extent of his own detriment (ancient weaponry, silly talking) without gaining much ridicule, since most people don't see it as LARPing because they kinda forgot about the Romans for they didn't find "the book".

 

[laclongquan]

I smell a little vampire... vampy vampy where are you!

 

[Gnidrologist]

Agree tad factions were larping retards, but Fallout universe isn't based on grim reality, but retro-futuristic sci-fi B movies. If you've played the first two games you shouldn't had problem with this. Only thing truly retarded was legion using only machetes and shitty which doctor powders because reasons. You don't bring knife to a gunfight. Well, you can, but then this happens:

 

[Sizzle]

Only thing truly retarded was legion using only machetes and shitty which doctor powders because reasons.

I might be misremembering this, but wasn't it explained that the reason for this was because of the way that the Legion is made up - lots and lots of recruits (zerg tactics), that scavange and fight amongst themselves for the best gear? The higher ranked soldiers get much better (ranged) weapons and armor.

 

[Gnidrologist]

It doesn't matter what's the explanation, because retarded part is that they wouldn't stand a chance with that kind of philosophy. Every granma in Mojave has some sort of gun so there's no reason for these guys not to.

 

[Doktor Best]

It doesn't matter what's the explanation, because retarded part is that they wouldn't stand a chance with that kind of philosophy. Every granma in Mojave has some sort of gun so there's no reason for these guys not to.

Well, Russia won WW2 with this tactic...

 

[Zanzoken]

Alt

If the factions are too unrealistic for you to get into the story then fair enough.

Personally I think you are overestimating the amount of knowledgable people who would be left in a world like this. Most people don't seem to know much beyond their faction's rhetoric, or going back to pre-War at best. Plus I don't get the feeling the Legion's rank and file are made up of the best and the brightest.

Not to say there is no one, obviously the Followers are historians which is why Sallow was able to form the Legion in the first place. Some people see through the bullshit but they are too few and far between to effectively oppose a huge cult like the Legion.

 

[gruntar]

Agree tad factions were larping retards, but Fallout universe isn't based on grim reality, but retro-futuristic sci-fi B movies. If you've played the first two games you shouldn't had problem with this. Only thing truly retarded was legion using only machetes and shitty which doctor powders because reasons. You don't bring knife to a gunfight. Well, you can, but then this happens:

<- That's not true, Legion used all kinds of firearms and explosives, only energy weapons and other high tech gear like power armors, as well as drugs and alcohol, were forbidden.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I seem to remember that only their assassins were regularly equipped with firearms.
The point is even rank and file rider lowlifes are mostly shooting at you, with few melees far and between. Given that Legion is made out of former riders and such scum, it makes no sense to go all melee on everyone's ass. That's just larp stuff like all their centurion/dekurion/whatever armors.

 

[gruntar]

Even basic Legion soldiers, Recruit legionaries, were equiped with firearms and had guns skill tagged.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Recruit_legionary

 

[Gnidrologist]

Okay, my bad. Don't know what exactly tipped me towards their machete worship thing. Maybe some lore stuff i already forgot.

 

[naossano]

They do have ranged weapons, but they train more with melee weapons, are they are supposed to be more reliable. If their rifle get jammed, they can still kick ass with melee weapons. If NCR conscript cannot use his rifle, he is pretty much screwed. (I guess rangers would find ways to gain the upper hand)

 

[gruntar]

Oh they do worship machete, it just doesn't prevent them from using firearms.

 

[FeelTheRads]

"I don't see how that is so hard for some people to understand, to me it feels like you are just trying hard to defend retarded writing."

We explained to you what you cannot understand, but you will neither understand, or explain yourself properly.

""logic" akin to what 5 year olds in the playground would come up with."

Yes, this is exactly what you're doing when you go into "BUT GAH DUMBASSES ITS OBVIOUS THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN DUH"

What did you explain? Just a lot of handwaving and made up shit to explain some caricatures, just because IT'S OBSIDIAN!

Yeah, they put more thought in their caricatures than you'll usually find in a game, but they're still caricatures that only make sense in a theme park setting... which is what Bethesda turned Fallout into anyway. So, if you're OK with the theme park setting then sure, the factions are "explained" and Caesar is great because he found a book... like that's the problem with the Legion... whether or not he found a book. But anyway, yeah, they're "explained".

In other words, NV inherited a lot of stupid shit and design directions from FO3 that are just overlooked because now it's made by Obsidian.

Makes me wonder how "whacky" is their "whacky wasteland" setting, though. What happens there? Did they get Todd Howard to do that?