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Fallout and Daggerfall character creation

Wyrmlord

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In Fallout, you had perks.

In Daggerfall, you had advantages and disadvantages.

While each Fallout perk had a corresponding weakness that applied to that perk and that perk alone, Daggerfall could allow any mix of advantages and disadvantages provided they did not contradict each other.

And in Daggerfall, you levelled more slowly if your advantages exceeded disadvantages.

Which system did you like more?

Plus, would Fallout work better with a Daggerfall style advantage/disadvantage system, or would Daggerfall work better with a Fallout style perk system?
 

Carrion

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Fallout's system didn't completely break the game before it even started so I guess it's the better one. Daggerfall's system would've been really great had it been properly balanced (meaning that you couldn't just make your weaknesses completely meaningless by picking the right advantages).
 

Lonely Vazdru

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I like Daggerfall system better since it gives more freedom by "desolidarizing" the weakness/advantage couple. Not being much of a meta gamer when it came out, I didn't create a super hero right off the bat, so it worked fine enough for me.
I liked both systems a lot though.
 

Roguey

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Oh look I'm posting in this thread before Grunker shows up with his GURPS talk.

Anyway Fallout would work better if it had advantages and disadvantages like GURPS. Some of those traits were quite terrible.
 

DakaSha

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I like daggerfalls system better (without thinking about it to much anyways) but fallout implemented its shit A LOT better

edit: also incursion wins against any other chargen though :smug:
inb4 D&D blows
 
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Daggerfall's would be way better if there was some limit to the amount of stuff you could take. It was just too broken, leading to ridiculous powergaming builds.
 
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Daggerfall's would have been a lot better if not for the obvious exploits. Critical Weakness to X would prevent taking immunity to X yet you could have immunity to everything if you had immunity/absorb magic. For players that don't abuse that (and also don't abuse overpowered magic to give themselves a 10 hour immunity through spells), critical weaknesses are actually critical weaknesses, even with hundreds of health you can die instantly by being hit from one of those.

A few other disadvantages were way too easy to abuse as well (IIRC not being able to use Iron/Silver/Elven gave a shit ton of points for some reason, where Daedric should be the most since its the strongest). But there is certainly a lot more interesting stuff to be done with Daggerfall. Most Fallout traits were completely uninteresting +1 to one thing and -1 to another thing stats.
 

Wyrmlord

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Daggerfall was concentrated awesome, but it needed balancing/exploit prevention. It could also do without hard restrictions.
There were exploits? I guess I didn't notice them, because I rushed into character creation, with 2 or 3 advantages and disadvantages each.

I like daggerfalls system better (without thinking about it to much anyways) but fallout implemented its shit A LOT better

edit: also incursion wins against any other chargen though :smug:
inb4 D&D blows
How does Incursion's system work?
 

DakaSha

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Daggerfall was concentrated awesome, but it needed balancing/exploit prevention. It could also do without hard restrictions.
There were exploits? I guess I didn't notice them, because I rushed into character creation, with 2 or 3 advantages and disadvantages each.

I like daggerfalls system better (without thinking about it to much anyways) but fallout implemented its shit A LOT better

edit: also incursion wins against any other chargen though :smug:
inb4 D&D blows
How does Incursion's system work?

It's the authors version of the D&D system. It's free. Just try it :p
It isn't really super on topic though because it doesn't have an advantage/disadvantage system

Ijust like it more then anything else because pretty much everything is possible and fighter types are actually very interesting to build

An example would be a kobold that crawls on the ceiling undetected and can leap down, trip and strangle enemies with a barbed chain :smug: )
 

Wyrmlord

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There were limits to spell absorption. Yes, AOE spells could be cast to near infinity, but if your maximum spell points were less than the cost of a spell (not infrequently the case), that abuse didn't exist.
 
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There were limits to spell absorption. Yes, AOE spells could be cast to near infinity, but if your maximum spell points were less than the cost of a spell (not infrequently the case), that abuse didn't exist.

Thats not really a limit. 3x INT magic gave you a limit of 300, an ability that makes all <300 magic spells free is ridiculously overpowered. Since you could spam like 5 spells a second there was no reason to kill something with 1x 500 magic spell as opposed to 5x 100 magic spells, so there is really no limit other than to self buffing which can't be absorbed.

This is besides the point though. The main exploit with regards to character creation is that spell absorption also absorbed all other spells, including shock/fire/cold stuff (think it also works on the disease and poison, not sure). The game allowed you to take Spell Absorption and then critical weakness to the other sub-types of spells. This led to characters that had immunity to all magic, the spell absorption exploits, 3x mana, 30 HP per level, regeneration, etc etc etc, all the while still maintaining a .3x leveling multiplier (and mages have super-exponential growth in ability as they level).

However, as I said, magic in and of itself was imbalanced to the point that it didn't really matter even if you didn't fully take advantage of character creation. Keep in mind that spells improve as you level and that spell costs go down as you gain in skill, so a level 5 mage could end up casting a 5 round per level spell absorption that lasts most of the dungeon. And then players can guard the mage guild at night for 2 weeks straight, go to the crafter, craft 20 items with +75 Mana and +15 to multiple skills and stand around with 1.5k mana with buffs that last hours giving +100 to all stats blasting everything with spells that cost 15 mana a piece.
 
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Hey, is there any reason why my character suddenly got 200 permanent points in str (and I just started playing)?
 

Wyrmlord

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Hey, is there any reason why my character suddenly got 200 permanent points in str (and I just started playing)?
Have you been affected with Lycanthropy or Vampirism?

Either way, I don't believe strength can rise above 100.
 
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Hey, is there any reason why my character suddenly got 200 permanent points in str (and I just started playing)?
Have you been affected with Lycanthropy or Vampirism?

Either way, I don't believe strength can rise above 100.

Nope, I'm perfectly normal. And my strength is 200, the value appears in yellow, wich I guess it means it's the naturall value.
 
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The Daggerfall-with-fixes bundle also contains a mod that lets stats/skills go to 200 for some stupid reason, even though the game still bugs out when that happens (spell skill > 100 = free spells, etc). You have to manually deselect that mod when installing.

Dunno how you got that much strength, but this is the only way to make it possible.
 

felipepepe

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The funny thing is that Fallout was going to be GURPS based, that also have a Advantage/Disavantage system. Which means that at some point the developers had a character creation in Fallout with Adv/Disv.

Personally I believe the Adv/Dis is a way deeper system, that can produce unique playstyles, at least on PnP, but is really hard to balance. Playing Fallout with a character that is "bound by honor", so can't lie/do bad things, or a One-Armed man that can't use any weapon but pistols would be great and viable, but stuff like :reaches for GURPS book: Cleptomania, Xenophobia, Cowardice, Mute, Mistaken Identity, Social Disease, Pacifism, Quadriplegic, would require massive amount of content to be created...and most players woudn't even see the content for the quadraplegic blind guy anyway.

Still, it would be fun to see some codexers creating xenophobic characters and not being able to recruit Marcus to their party. :lol:
 
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Daggerfall's would have been a lot better if not for the obvious exploits. Critical Weakness to X would prevent taking immunity to X yet you could have immunity to everything if you had immunity/absorb magic.

This keeps coming up and it simply isn't true. In Daggerfall there were five damage types: magic, cold, fire, poison, shock. C.weakness/immunity to magic only affected magic. Only absorb magic worked on all of them.

Anyway, give me a mish mash of FO+DF restructured into Darklands format. Keeping PnP implementations out since there are a few very decent systems out there.
 

mondblut

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Daggerfall all the way. Traits are retar-, um, *special*, wink wink nudge nudge. "Oh hi, I hit stronger but do less criticals" - fuck you, there are such things as STRENGTH and LUCK to govern that. Or trading away an ability to learn to maximize intelligence, yeah right. And don't even let me start on that "perk" shit, I want to punch someone in the face whenever I hear the word.

"Special" is the most incredibly overrated ruleset ever.
 

Wyrmlord

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Daggerfall's would have been a lot better if not for the obvious exploits. Critical Weakness to X would prevent taking immunity to X yet you could have immunity to everything if you had immunity/absorb magic.

This keeps coming up and it simply isn't true. In Daggerfall there were five damage types: magic, cold, fire, poison, shock. C.weakness/immunity to magic only affected magic. Only absorb magic worked on all of them.

Anyway, give me a mish mash of FO+DF restructured into Darklands format. Keeping PnP implementations out since there are a few very decent systems out there.
Till level 10, enemies like Dragonlings or Frost Daedra are so rare, that fire or frost damage is simply a non issue. I do not even recall any use of poison.
 
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Frost and Fire Daedra are like two of the top 5 most commonly encountered critters on higher levels, Wyrmie. And IIRC, Ancient Liche and Vampires often used poison spells and also is in that same top 5 but I might be wrong about that.
 

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