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Development Info Fallout 3 may have God-awful music and combat

hiver

Guest
Havent we complaned and flinged poo enough already at those?
They suck sheep balls. There.

And there was no ray guns in previous games. Lasers and plasma shot bolts not rays.
 

Suchy

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Oh just fuck the guns... I want proper ambient mjuzik!

From the other hand, the dialogue bit seems promising.
 

Claw

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Section8 said:
Again, it's a question of where you draw the line
Dude, get with the program! In the Fallout universe, everything is possible! I know Pete said that, somewhere, so it's true.


Briosafreak said:
Because if you remove Science! weapons than all it will stay are pistols, ak's,G3s, uzis and the like.
Science! is a stupid generalisation. If you can't tell a laser and a cryolator apart, you must have a perception score of 1.

Again I'm sorry but on this I agree with the wikipedia:
Fallout draws from 1950s pulp magazines, science fiction and superhero comic books, all rooted in Atomic Age optimism of a nuclear-powered future, though gone terribly awry by the time the events of the game take place. The technology is retro-futuristic, with various Raygun Gothic machines such as laser weaponry and boxy Forbidden Planet-style robots. Computers use vacuum tubes instead of transistors, architecture of ruined buildings feature Art Deco and Googie designs, energy weaponsresemble those used by Flash Gordon, and what few vehicles remain in the world are all 1950s-styled.

Fallout's other production design, such as menu interfaces, are similarly designed to resemble advertisements and toys of the Atomic Age. The characters sheet cards and perks available resemble those of the board game Monopoly, and other advertising in the game such as billboards and brochures have a distinct 1950s flavour. The lack of retro stylization was one of the things the Fallout spin-offs were criticized for, as retro-futurism is a hallmark of the Fallout series.
This quote doesn't support your point in any way. Noone's denying that Fallout draws from 1950s pulp science fiction (etc.), but where is the argument that everything from that category fits the Fallout universe? Is Fallout nothing more than an empty canvas on which 50's sci-fi is projected for you? Don't you recognize any unique aspect of Fallout that sets it apart from some generic sci-fi setting? Because that IS your argument at the core: "It's so generic, everything fits! Don't argue! I said don't argue!"

And with Tim Cain:
Seriously, the artists just thought that 50's tech looked cool. So they set out to make a future science that looked like what the Golden Era of science fiction thought that future science would look like (if you can follow that sentence). Vacuum tubes, ray guns, mutants, the whole works. And I think they succeeded quite well.
Nor does this one. In fact, he seems to be talking more about the artistic design (the looks) of the weapons rather than any fancy special effects, which is supported by how the weapons actually work. If he wanted something like the cryolator, he could've had it in Fallout.


Why remove one raygun and leave another, if both fit the setting, regardless of what you are saying?
Because unlike you, we don't simply presume that everything 50's pulp sci-fi naturally fits the setting, while you apparently do, without any rational justification.

By the way, I love the "regardless of what you are saying" argument. That's pretty classy.
 

WhiskeyWolf

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Because if you remove Science! weapons than all it will stay are pistols, ak's,G3s, uzis and the like.
This is simply wrong. If you remove Science the only "weapons" that will stay will be sticks and stones.
 

Briosafreak

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Science! is a stupid generalisation.

Nope, it's one of the things that makes the Fallout setting unique.

Noone's denying that Fallout draws from 1950s pulp science fiction

Thank you. We finally agree on something.

but where is the argument that everything from that category fits the Fallout universe?

I don't know, I didn't make it, talk to someone else.

he seems to be talking more about the artistic design (the looks) of the weapons rather than any fancy special effects

Your teleological powers suck.

Because that IS your argument at the core: "It's so generic, everything fits! Don't argue! I said don't argue!"

Your analysis powers also suck. Don't put words in my mouth.



Because unlike you, we don't simply presume that everything 50's pulp sci-fi naturally fits the setting, while you apparently do, without any rational justification.

Actually my reasoning is clear and based on the established canon, I'm not the one trying to rationalize things in order to make a point that involves the reinterpretation of simple things that were tenants of the game.

But ok, I could be wrong, it's something I'll have to ask around with the old Fallout devs. Until then don't try sarcasm with me Claw, doesn't work. Still love you though.
 

User was nabbed fit

Guest
At least on PC, I guess we'll be able to replace the shitty music files with ones from the original Fallout games. There is hope after all.
 

doctor_kaz

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Why would anyone be surprised that the combat is crap and the music is shit?

Just accept that Fallout 3 is an entirely different IP from the first two Fallouts and try to enjoy it. Fallout truly died years ago.
 

pkt-zer0

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Briosafreak said:
Why remove one raygun and leave another, if both fit the setting, regardless of what you are saying?
One would think that you of all people could recognize an "every A is B, therefore every B is A" type fallacy, but apparently not.
 

Briosafreak

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pkt-zer0 said:
Briosafreak said:
Why remove one raygun and leave another, if both fit the setting, regardless of what you are saying?
One would think that you of all people could recognize an "every A is B, therefore every B is A" type fallacy, but apparently not.

That's a sophism. But that's not what I was trying to do, I just don't understand why one ray gun is more worthy than another, since their teleology brings us to the same Sci Fi Pulp. That's all.

Fatman, exploding cars= regardless of what they look are compromises to please shooters fans.

These Science! weapons= cool gadgets that add flavor to Fallout.

Couldn't we just agree that the epic music sucks though?
 

elander_

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pkt-zer0 said:
Well, Fallout 1 kept away from that sort of silliness for the most part. Guns that shoot energy to make people dead were about as borderline it got.
Then again, I felt the Gatling Laser to be a bit too over-the-top, so yeah.

But we don't have magic spells in Fallout. They need weapon spells to compensate, or the people who played Oblivion will complain.
 

doctor_kaz

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Briosafreak said:
Couldn't we just agree that the epic music sucks though?

God yes. Talk about them not getting it. Didn't Mark Morgan also do the music for Planescape: Torment? Fallout and PST have some of the best video game music ever made. Absolutely perfect for the game and totally non-generic.
 

Claw

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Briosafreak said:
I don't know, I didn't make it, talk to someone else.
Yes you did, regardless of what you are saying.

Actually my reasoning is clear and based on the established canon
Your reasoning is as clear and insubstantial as an absolute vaccum. I hope that wasn't too subtle.
 

Section8

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Couldn't we just agree that the epic music sucks though?

Oh definitely. It just that there's nothing to debate on that front. We all agree. By unanimous verdict, Bethesda are once again found guilty. Case closed.

Actually my reasoning is clear and based on the established canon, I'm not the one trying to rationalize things in order to make a point that involves the reinterpretation of simple things that were tenants of the game.

My argument is not that Fallout doesn't derive from 50's Science! pulp, but that it can't accomodate everything from it. How do we know where to draw the line? Look at the established canon, and look for conspicuous absence rather than direct contradiction. Why does all record of research point toward biological and nuclear warfare, when psychological and meteorological warfare are possibilities?

That's one part of it of it. Another thing to consider - Fallout's greatest influence is certainly 1950's pulp, but there's also a brutal excess of violence and very dark tone that encompasses the Science! aspects.

For instance, where are the non-lethal weapons? Where are the mesmetrons and cryolaters that would be far more effective peacekeeping tools than public execution? Why does Roger Maxson wind up executing a bunch of scientists? Human experiments? Where are the robots set to incapacitate instead of kill?

My take is that Fallout's world doesn't have the same sanctity of life the our own society has. Even the power armour is designed for use against civilian disturbances. Everything is designed to be lethal. Where do non-lethal weapons like the cryolater and mesmetron fit in the scheme of things?

The other concern is not really to do with Fallout at all. Do you expect Bethesda to actually make interesting use of these weapons - either functionally or within the lore of the world? Do you expect to be able to use the Mesmetron in non-combat situations? use the cryolater to alter the weather, or freeze water that would be otherwise impassable? Disrupt a town's drinking water or food supply? Even something as simple as Dark Messiah's "make stuff slip over and die" mechanic?

Do you expect any historical context for a mind-control device? Proper reverence for something that changes the face of society and politics forever?

I could go on and on if you're not convinced, but I just don't see how these additions to the gameworld are positive. I'm halfway expecting them to even fail at making the cryolator and mesmetron tactically interesting. After all, spells with the same effect in Oblivion were completely redundant and useless.
 

Lurkar

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Honestly, epic music doesn't HAVE to suck. The problem is, epic music only works when you use it in VERY SPECIFIC cases, and otherwise keep the music very low key. Shadow of the Colossus had a fucking amazing soundtrack that worked wonders in the game, because in *most* cases, the music was very quiet and low key, and worked to enhance the game rather then try to upstage it. Then when the actual battles happened, the "epic music" came out of the ordinary, which actually made it epic. But when the almighty trumpets start blaring every time you see a rat, things are going to be retarded and boring.

Of course it helped that the guy who DID the music for Shadow of the Colossus was actually good at it.
 

Briosafreak

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My argument is not that Fallout doesn't derive from 50's Science! pulp, but that it can't accommodate everything from it.

It's a good argument, I don't think it applies to these particular weapons. A small burst that incinerates you at a molecular level and turns you into goo is something that I feel is close in spirit to a freezing ray. The hypnotizer seems close to many gadgets on the Fallout world, and if it is an experimental weapon it follows the pattern of the experimental or rare weapons of the other games.

Having said that:
Do you expect Bethesda to actually make interesting use of these weapons

That's another story,they might very well turn out very badly, I don't know. I just like the ideas behind them, don't know if they will work.
 

obediah

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Goral said:
So if you put your hand into a container with liquid nitrogen and put it out after 1-3 s there would be no such spectacular effect ...

Nobody do this. You may not shatter your hand on the wall, but you will burn the fuck out of it.
 

JarlFrank

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People who say epic music sucks: Listen to fucking Richard Wagner you imbeciles.

Most epic music in games, sucks, though, because it doesn't really fit to the game. Music for games or movies has to fit to the game or movie, to the athmosphere, to certain situations... just take Battlestar Galactica as an example. My favourite soundtrack ever, and it's very different from all other Sci Fi series soundtracks.
 

Helton

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[sings] It's been a long road... Gettin' from there to here.
It's been a long time... but my time is finally here!
And I will take nun-nun-nananana, I will touch the sky!
'Cause they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind...

'Cause I've got faith! Of the heart...[/sings]
 

shihonage

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Helton said:
[sings] It's been a long road... Gettin' from there to here.
It's been a long time... but my time is finally here!
And I will take nun-nun-nananana, I will touch the sky!
'Cause their not gonna hold me down no more, no their not gonna change my mind...

'Cause I've got faith! Of the heart...[/sings]

Worst. Intro. Ever.
 

doctor_kaz

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JarlFrank said:
People who say epic music sucks: Listen to fucking Richard Wagner you imbeciles.

I don't think that anyone is saying that epic music sucks perse, just that it sucks for Fallout. And the theme song that was playing on the trailer site really sucked.
 

Lurkar

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JarlFrank said:
People who say epic music sucks: Listen to fucking Richard Wagner you imbeciles.

Most epic music in games, sucks, though, because it doesn't really fit to the game. Music for games or movies has to fit to the game or movie, to the athmosphere, to certain situations... just take Battlestar Galactica as an example. My favourite soundtrack ever, and it's very different from all other Sci Fi series soundtracks.

That's basically what I was trying to get at.

Music for games - epic or not - will always be better if it's made specifically for that game, with specific scenes in mind. However, this tends to be increasingly important for EPIC MUSIC. While regular ambient music can get dull or boring when used improperly, EPIC MUSIC gets outright annoying when used poorly.
 

Chefe

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hello world
 

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