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Extra Pack for the Unofficial Arcanum Patch [Discontinued]

Crichton

Prophet
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,210
Drogg,

As far as "balance patching", I'd say keep your head up and do whatever you like. You're certainly as qualified to balance the game as Troika since they failed at it.

I was working on a weapon / item balance patch for Arcanum long ago, hacking away at those protos with a hex editor, I can send you the files if you want.

I thought the most important aspects of balancing pretty much came down to-

-Super-tech weapons that require investment of tech points to make should have low STR req and high damage.
-Non-super tech melee weapons should do damage in proportion to their STR requirement.
-Weapons of a given type (gun, bow, thrown, melee) should all be within a very narrow range of Speed to balance out the ludicrous effects of high dex (no more half-ogres with rapiers or useless large guns) Basically, if you're strong enough to use a bigger weapon, you should want to since you paid for that strength. The only exception is stuff like the mechanized gun or balanced sword that you pay stat points for.
-Guns should have a bullet consumption that makes sense for the round being fired (i.e. the repeating rifle costs two bullets to the fine pistol's one, the mechanized gun is six. All three do similar damage, why do rounds for the faster weapons have such a ridiculous cost?)
-Guns should do damage based on the size of the round being fired.
-Big guns with high STR req and bullet consumption need to do MASSIVE amounts of damage to be viable.
-Weapons made from schematics and hence requiring a point investment to acquire should be much better than guns available for mere money. (i.e. Repeating rifle most own Clarington rifle)
-Extra damage for charged, pyrotechnic or whatever weapons should follow some rhyme or reason to avoid monstrousities like the pyrotechnic axe.
-Higher level schematics need to be better to make up for the increased stat-point requirement. (flamethrower)
-Poison damage for envenomed weapons needs to be doled out in job lots to get anyone to notice it. All of the poison damage in game is so slow that one scarcely notices it.

I actually drew up an excel spreadsheet and rewrote the damage, speed, STR req and what not for every weapon in the game, but I was only halfway through doing the hex editing before I decided that when it came right down to it, no amount of balancing could fix the gameplay when you only control one character.
 

team a

Novice
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6
Well, people are definitely interested in them, and since they can always choose not to install the extra stuff, it doesn't have to follow the same standards that you set for the main patch.

There's always going to be a problem rebalancing stuff that didn't quite make it in, since it wasn't exactly "balanced" in the first place. So, it's going to be subjective, there's no getting around it.

I know that TONGSyaBASS from terra-arcanum also added some stuff like this, but since he's busy with his Ph.d, he hasn't had time to release it.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,012
I'm starting to think that this patch was a bad idea. I shouldn't play a role of a game designer. Some things (such as cut out content and dismissed ideas) should be left untouched. The same goes for the balance. I'm in no position to change such things.

No way, you are doing a fantastic job.
The restoring of all the missing content would be amazing.
About palette and item statistics, until you sticks to the original concept and design it's fine for me.
For the balance worries, is it possible add the option for augmentation or diminuition of area' s aptitude to Virgil cheat's menu ?
In this way it would be possible put it at test without alter drastically the game.
Better else, make this changes available only in a hardcore mode via difficulty menu.
Hope my suggestions will be useful , or viable, of course.
By the way I'm waiting in advance another release of the extrapack.
 

team a

Novice
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6
The magic tech is stored in .sec files, as far as I can tell, so you can't script it (unless you decide to set the magic/tech using scripting alone, which would be rediculously tedious, with a PC HB script)
 

Faceless

Novice
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
91
Please do continue with this patch.
You may not feel like you're qualified to balance this game, but don't forget you'll have an army of free beta testers who will tell you what works and what doesn't.
 

ninja_felix

Novice
Joined
Apr 17, 2008
Messages
27
Hi Drog

As others have stated I wouldn't worry too much about any negative comment on the extras pack - the Main element is so close to the original that nobody could begrudge you spreading your wings a bit in an extras pack.

Nice work on the riddles pack by the way - I never really expected anything from it - just thought it was a fun idea. So big thanks for pushing it out and so quickly. I tried to use it last night but it was all a bit late by the time I got home from doing my ninja bit - I'll give it the attention it deserves tonight - do I need to start an new character under the module - or just play as the module?

Regarding the palates my gut feeling is that the duller ones are more in keeping with Arcanum but if the brighter ones are significantly easier to control/follow/whatever go with those. After all it's your baby.

Given your reticence about altering balance - which I can understand - may I suggest you nominate either an arbiter or small committee of arbiters made up of the most productive testers. (Ander Vinz, Masked Man and DarkUnderlord from Terra-Arcanum, for his years of dedication, would all spring to mind but that's just off the top of my head). They, if they are willing, can take on the burden of deciding what's appropriate from any other suggestions and keep you out of the firing line. Obviously anything you're uncomfortable with that results from that process simply doesn't get done so no great harm there. In any case it should help to relieve you of the part of this that you've been unhappy with from your previous posts.


I have to agree with you about ditching experience for doing damage - much simpler in the long term. Were any other the other ideas about exp for spotting traps, charming and so on viable?

All the best
 
Self-Ejected

Drog Black Tooth

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
2,636
team a said:
The magic tech is stored in .sec files, as far as I can tell, so you can't script it (unless you decide to set the magic/tech using scripting alone, which would be rediculously tedious, with a PC HB script)
A PC can't have any scripts attached. The only way to implement magic/tech through scripting is to place invisible NPCs in areas and have them loop for everyone in their HBs and change the creatures' aptitude. Such technique is actually used by Troika to control some objects, like runes in Tulla, for example.

ninja_felix said:
Nice work on the riddles pack by the way - I never really expected anything from it - just thought it was a fun idea. So big thanks for pushing it out and so quickly. I tried to use it last night but it was all a bit late by the time I got home from doing my ninja bit - I'll give it the attention it deserves tonight - do I need to start an new character under the module - or just play as the module?
Thanks! And no, it doesn't change any map files, so you can go there with already existing character.

ninja_felix said:
I have to agree with you about ditching experience for doing damage - much simpler in the long term. Were any other the other ideas about exp for spotting traps, charming and so on viable?
That's too much, I'm afraid.

To everybody:
There will be another version, with the Levered Machine Gun and magic/tech areas. And that's it for now. You'd better report some more bugs for the UAP. :)
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,012
A PC can't have any scripts attached. The only way to implement magic/tech through scripting is to place invisible NPCs in areas and have them loop for everyone in their HBs and change the creatures' aptitude. Such technique is actually used by Troika to control some objects, like runes in Tulla, for example.
What about an object in your inventory doing the same thing ?
You could acquire it from the character creation shop.
Just a thougth anyway, do what fit you best.

To everybody:
There will be another version, with the Levered Machine Gun and magic/tech areas. And that's it for now. You'd better report some more bugs for the UAP.
So from now on the reports about UAPEXP080527(2) should be posted here
instead of the regular patch thread ?
I ask because this is the version I was running at the moment.
 
Self-Ejected

Drog Black Tooth

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
2,636
Kz3r0 said:
A PC can't have any scripts attached. The only way to implement magic/tech through scripting is to place invisible NPCs in areas and have them loop for everyone in their HBs and change the creatures' aptitude. Such technique is actually used by Troika to control some objects, like runes in Tulla, for example.
What about an object in your inventory doing the same thing ?
You could acquire it from the character creation shop.
Just a thougth anyway, do what fit you best.
The idea is to use the original feature of the engine, not to go around it. Why is it needed?

Kz3r0 said:
To everybody:
There will be another version, with the Levered Machine Gun and magic/tech areas. And that's it for now. You'd better report some more bugs for the UAP.
So from now on the reports about UAPEXP080527(2) should be posted here
instead of the regular patch thread ?
I ask because this is the version I was running at the moment.
The Extra Pack is not a replacement for the UAP, it's just optional extra content.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,012
The idea is to use the original feature of the engine, not to go around it. Why is it needed?
Using the original features it's the best for me, however I don't know what's the most easy and reliable way to achieve it.
It can be a way to test the effects before effecting any major change, obviousvily if it's possible and more easy and fast than tuning the engine.
I trust your judgement anyway, my suggestions are free to you to consider'em or trash'em, hope are useful though.


The Extra Pack is not a replacement for the UAP, it's just optional extra content.
Understood, thanks.
 

Earth Nuggets

Novice
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
99
Location
New Jersey
ninja_felix said:
Regarding the palates my gut feeling is that the duller ones are more in keeping with Arcanum but if the brighter ones are significantly easier to control/follow/whatever go with those. After all it's your baby.

All right, for anyone that missed this, the whole color scheme thing has been cleared up, at least for me. Drog only custom-made the palettes for the other decoys' inventory art and when making these he logically attempted to simulate the palettes already present in the creature ART for the clockwork decoy. Troika themselves had implemented 3 additional colors for this device.

artview%20decoys.gif


There just simply wasn't anything in-game to reflect those colors, until Drog restored the missing decoys and their schematics. To make the restored decoys distinguishable from the original in the inventory, he made custom ART based entirely off of their in-game colors. Drog based his work off of content already in the game, and in that regard completely succeeded.
 

Earth Nuggets

Novice
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
99
Location
New Jersey
I apologize for going off-topic here, but I figured I could get a response from someone knowledgeable. I've spent a couple hours today working on custom backgrounds for each race with unique descriptions that would reverse all racial bonuses and penalties. And yes, I spent a decent amount of time on the writing to make it seem logical or at least possible. However, there's one thing that's bothering me. It seems to be impossible to get rid of the Dwarven fatigue penalty for spell-casting. There are specific additives that are applied through a file called effect.mes. This is the code for Dwarves:

Code:
{65}{st +1, cn +1, ch -1, dx -1, repair +2, firearms +2, picklock +2, armtrap +2, techpts +3, age +80} // race_dwarf
None of the effects listed determine the fatigue penalty, so I'm curious as to what does? Is there any way to get around it, or am I going to have to balance the background I made for Dwarves and give them back their technological aptitude?

Also, if anyone's interested in this, they work fine for every other race. If someone requests them, I'll definitely put them up for download.

[Edit - Just noticed this: "{342}{} // INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK! Used for effects that are handled by the engine, but need an effect number"

And since I don't see the effects of mastering the spell colleges which does something similar, I guess I'm screwed]
 

aboyd

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Messages
843
Location
USA
Drog Black Tooth said:
I'm starting to think that this patch was a bad idea. I shouldn't play a role of a game designer. Some things (such as cut out content and dismissed ideas) should be left untouched.
I might word what you said a little differently. Perhaps this: "I'm starting to think that asking for consensus on the patch was a bad idea. I shouldn't expect something subjective like colors to gain universal acclaim with a group of testy old farts on a notoriously contentious forum."

When you think of it like that, it becomes easier to say, "I'm building this for fun, I like it as-is, and if some don't like it, they don't use it."

(As for the colors, I myself already said I liked the original easter colors, but I would additionally suggest that I like your revised colors. I don't quite like the more dull metallic-looking colors because as you said it's hard to tell them apart. But again this is only subjective opinion, and it's likely everyone else has different feelings. You can't get consensus here.)
 

Thor Kaufman

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
13,953
Location
ඞ Rape for Justice! 卐
It would be good if it didn't matter at all anymore who deals the (killing) blows on enemy creatures for exp. Combat is a chore in Arcanum more or less.

That way one could just let the followers hack their way through the random encounters and whatnot and just concentrate on the quests.
 
Self-Ejected

Drog Black Tooth

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
2,636
The project is frozen. Until better days.

P.S. Earth Nuggets, you could have pm'ed me instead of going off-topic here.

EDIT: To make it more clear. I believe that restoring a few cut out items is fine, as long as the original intents are followed (OMG the colors are wrong!), but everything else beyond that is unacceptable. This thread quickly turned into "I want Arcanum to do this, I wish Arcanum would do that". This is called modding, pure custom content. I've no interest in such things.

Call me a purist.

P.S. There's a few cut out items left (including the Levered Machine Gun) and a few cut out monsters, but I don't want to work on them right now, moreover, I don't think there's a place to put them in the final game.
 
Self-Ejected

Drog Black Tooth

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
2,636
A small update:
-Fixed incompatibility issues with the current version of the UAP.
-Restored the conversation of Virgil and Maug.

The download link is in the first post.
 
Self-Ejected

Drog Black Tooth

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
2,636
Gee, I wonder what this could be...

liz_01.png

liz_02.png

liz_03.png


liz_sword.gif
liz_bow.gif


Finally, huh? It took a lot of time (and luck) to find this...
 

Ander Vinz

Scholar
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
645
Drog Black Tooth said:
Finally, huh? It took a lot of time (and luck) to find this...
Are all necessary animations in for these old versions or just two of them?
 

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