Eternal Crusade (WH40K MMO)

[Mangoose]

i.e. Chaos can run forward as an effective form of 'strategy'

They don't, because:
Tacticals Marines are identical to Traitor Marines in every aspect except for horns
Assault Marines are identical to Raptors in every aspect except for horns
Devastators are identical to Havocs in every aspect except for horns

By the way, Loyalist Marine Storm Shielders can currently run forward much better than Traitor Nurgles, the Storm Shield has a huge amount of protection while running. Even passively. If you shoot at their shield arm while they're running, they can mitigate Main Tank (Predator) shots pretty damn well - as I have mentioned countless times. Nurgle Marines, on the other hand, can be picked off much more easily from range. They are actually not better at running forward.

Now, the advantage of Nurgle Marines is when they actually are in melee combat. Storm Shielders are not as good in the act of close combat, currently this is assumed to be because the shield must be activated to block, so when you "de-activate" you're no more durable than a regular Marine. Whereas the Nurgle Marine can melee without losing that durability.

See, you don't even know WHAT the issues are. You're bringing in what saw in other games and you think that those mechanics are going to be the exact same. Do you see Cultists in Eternal Crusade? Do you see Scouts in Eternal Crusade? Do you see base Space Marines that play differently from base Chaos Marines in Eternal Crusade?

Again I will bring up in 40k tabletop that Chaos has units that have all 4 strategies of movement. Chaos in tabletop have specialists (and actually are a more specialist race than Loyalists), including: (A) Khorne Berserkers that are meant to run into melee, (B) Rubric Marines which are slower than a Loyalists, (C) Noise Marines that play similarly to loyalist Tacticals, (D) Plague Marines which I don't even remember how they play.

In any case, the design choices in DoW/DoW2 aren't even faithful to the gameplay of actual 40k tabletop. They are RTS, and RTS design requires larger differences between races.

but that aside, it is indeed a time of waiting to see what eventuates, it is a good time for these balance issues to be at the fore because it remains to be seen how the developers, and the community, will respond to perceived matters of balance

No, currently in the game the priority are much more fundamental design issues such as figuring out how to renovate melee combat to be more interesting, how to deal with UE4 and its issues with AMD, map/level design including considering capture points and whatnot, balance and bias between armor and infantry (in terms of which should be stronger, etc.), what kind of anti-vehicle methods there should be and how their mechanics should be designed, how jump mechanics should work, dodging and rolling mechanics, the stamina mechanic, gun mechanics (rate of fire, damage per hit), TTK (time to kill). Shit like this. Fundamental mechanics.

Right now we are dealing with even more fundamental mechanics than race balance. If you knew the actual status of the game, played it, or talked to people who have been in alpha for a moderate amount of time, you'd know this.

In other words, LOOK at the threads I listed in the spoilers/quote that are actually in the Founder's Lounge. There's a fucking huge difference between that and what's in General Discussion.

Speed of Eldar? Durability? Who knows? Maybe during the balance stage they can tweak it so the advantage is very low.

And I'm fucking serious when I ask you to play Planetside 2. I'm not joking. There are significant-ish playstyle differences. I already told you one army has vehicles that hover, yet other classes have advantages in other means that are tweaked to match.

You don't seem to understand that balance can be very well taken care of even during post-release, by changing numbers. Have you EVER read patch notes? Do you even look at how they balance armies/units in Dawn of War? They change damage amount, health amount, speed, whatever. This type of balance is not a priority at this moment.

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TLDR you don't seem to understand the priority "lineup" of different aspects of the game. You jump into balancing races when that is hardly a major issue at this point of the game. If you want a real discussion with me, then talk about the fundamental mechanics that I have listed above. Seriously. No joke and no insult intended. I'm explaining to you that we can have a fine discussion if we actually talk about what is an issue. I do not want to entertain about race balance when there are much huger issues. For example, if melee is not fun, then race balance doesn't even matter because melee is not going to be fun for any race.

I also don't care about concept art because everything is carbon copy from 40k fluff art. And this is actually a good thing because that's what fans want.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

"Chaos can run forward as an effective strategy!"

 

[Mangoose]

"Chaos can run forward as an effective strategy!"

If they add Khorne Berserkers, sure.

But they ain't doing that for this game. Because.... design balance, incidentally. Lol.

BTW, you know who can run forward as an effective strategy? Fucking Blood Angels. Flying Librarians lol

Anyways, SV, what edition of 40k were you talking about earlier? As I said I'm only familiar with 5th.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Oh, none what so ever. I was talking about Eternal Crusade as a whole since... well, discussing the tabletop rules really doesn't work when trying to balance a shooter.

For sake of reference though: I am familiar with the 4th edition, bits and bobs. But mostly I'm a lore junkie.

 

[Mangoose]

Oh, none what so ever. I was talking about Eternal Crusade as a whole since... well, discussing the tabletop rules really doesn't work when trying to balance a shooter.

Understood. I meant that there are so many options/strategies per race from tabletop and fluff, and Eternal Crusade can pick or choose in order for race balance and shit. You can't just go by previous video games and think that's how factions are gonna work in other games, because DoW1/DoW2 also pick and chose units for specific design reasons. And strategy game design in terms of choosing units and playstyle is not the same as shooter design in terms of the same. I don't mean just shooters, but any genre will "pick and choose" differently because of playstyle requirements.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Yes. Yes indeed. And different combinations of wargear, marks and otherwise will provide a switch from the supposed intended role of the class.

I personally think that discussing balance as something that needs to be upheld perfectly is a flawed concept to say the least... but you know how retarded some people can be.

"OMG I TRY 2 MELEA KILL TEH NORGOL MURK WITH MY DEVESTAUR AND GOT KILL'D BUFF DEVE MELAE NOW"

 

[Aothan]

well I did explain it is the conceptual basis, from the original source material, and how this transliterates into design within games and by extension, different genres, that reflects a tendency to produce similar examples across different instances

aside from which, I'm looking forward to future developments, it is hard to tell from the limited information available just when Eldar will be available, but I imagine before then additional unit details will be released, I would like to see what support functions some classes have and also which classes can be played in open games where team organisation won't always be coordinated

 

[Mangoose]

well I did explain it is the conceptual basis, from the original source material, and how this transliterates into design within games and by extension, different genres, that reflects a tendency to produce similar examples across different instances

Except the Warhammer video games that exist only contain a fraction of the units in the "original source material."

And that in the Warhammer video games that exist, the factions and units tend not to even play like the "original source material."

Do you even know the original source material? Have you even read any of the codices?

tendency to produce similar examples across different instances

That's stupid as fuck, because different genres intentionally implement source material differently because different genres have different playstyles.

which classes can be played in open games where team organisation won't always be coordinated

If you're not a dumbass, you would realize that the most optimal class to play without team coordination would be the generalist class, such as the Tactical Marine, the Traitor Marine, the (most likely) Dire Avenger.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to grasp that every faction has three base classes, where-in the Chaos and Loyalist base classes are identical except for horns.

If you're going to keep going on about Chaos being a "run forward faction" even though the faction base classes are identical, you might as well accuse me of being blind when I load up the game.

Do you want screenshots or something? Do you want to see how not different the factions are?

 

[Aothan]

And that in the Warhammer video games that exist, the factions and units tend not to even play like the "original source material."

Do you even know the original source material? Have you even read any of the codices?

I really am at a loss for what to say at this stage, having tried to explain there is no reason for continued misunderstandings, which is, also, still being read as further reasons for disagreements that are unnecessary to continue with

to answer yes I have, and if you want to say there is no correspondence then that is okay, for now I recommend leaving things as they are, personally I am awaiting further details of Eldar unit abilities and qualities, and perhaps more hopefully a release date

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Noise marines are going to be in the next update for Eternal Crusade according to the news section within steam. If true then.... AW YEAH.

 

[Mangoose]

to answer yes I have, and if you want to say there is no correspondence then that is okay

Yes and no.

However, what I am saying is there is no (or little) correspondence between unit availability per race in Eternal Crusade and unit availability in the Warhammer strategy games, and I played DoW2 on end. What I'm saying is you cannot so simply compare design choices in one genre with design choices in another genre. This is because of game genre intent:

• Strategy games require differentiation between armies. I'm not sure how to elaborate on that, but I think you understand why differentiation is very important.
  • Also, balance in terms of strategy games tends to be in a macro sp
• FPSes (and certain other genres) do not require as much differentiation. Yes, differentiation is important, but balance is of the highest priority and such differentiation will be modified in order to fulfill balance requirements.
  • You must realize that in strategy games, you the player represents the entire army, where squad sizes are different.
    
  • On the other hand, in a game where you play a single character, you do not represent the entire army. This means balance between specific characters is more important. Because you never want to play a character that is weaker than other classes because of mechanics differences. Thus, mechanics differentiation will be overriden by balance requirements.
• Again, play Planetside 2, where this is noticeable differentiation between races, yet the differentiation is not significant enough to disturb balance. Because balance is the higher priority.

---

In terms of actual differences (or rather, similarities) in the game's current state, I am giving fact from personal experience, (which is a surprising 50 hours of gameplay... I don't even mean or intend that I played so much because I was a fanboy... I guess I was just bored and this was entertaining enough to fill my time). So in this instance, stop friggin telling me I'm wrong about the differences in how SM and CSM play in this specific game when I not only see jack shit difference during gameplay, but that I see absolutely no difference when setting up loadout for the THREE BASIC UNITS WHICH MAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE ARMY.

• Even besides that, the support classes are still intended to mirror each other, with different mechanics, but again also referring to above where balance is higher priority than unit mechanic differentiation.
  • Ground Assault vs Nurgle Marines meant to be basically used for the same purposes, simply with attempts at using different mechanics in order to do so. The purpose being the heavy "the 'strong' [units] by definition of being able to move straight ahead." They are not meant to be different in intention. If there are balance issues, it's because the numbers are wrong. At least in this point of beta.
  • Apothecaries' and Sorcerers' main ability is healing. (Yes, they also have different mechanics also but those are less in priority, though not saying they are negligible mechanics. In fact they just added more ranged capability to Apothecaries to balance out Sorcerers' ability to be useful at ranged.)

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Now for tabletop

Starting with a non-essential subjective hook, I was in fact I was more interested in Chaos than Space Marines in tabletop because Chaos had specialized units based on each of the Chaos Gods, except less specialization than Eldar. However, unlike the Eldar these specialized units were elite units that cost more points, which you may compare to something like Sternguard/Vanguard Veteran from the Space Marine codex. Eldar specialized units... which is, I guess, all of them... are their base army. Of course, this also belays the fact that you could build slow "Ulthwe fluff" Wraithguard "'strong' army by definition of being able to move straight ahead."

Now I shall actually be serious and pedantic about table top rules.

• Eldar speed comes from vehicles, not units. What happens is that because transports move fast and that you can strike on deployment, you can cover a lot of ground and then drop your units quicker across a larger ground.
  • That does not mean the infantry itself are terribly faster than in tabletop. Infantry simply have Fleet, which means they are less hindered by terrain.
    
  • Striking Scorpions rely on stealth, not speed.
    
  • Swooping Hawks are as "speedful" as any other jump troop, with the only difference being more ranged and being more of bombers.
    
  • Banshees... are actually the "move straight ahead" type except they don't rely on speed but on avoiding obstacles and shit (I don't remember correctly).
    
  • Dark Reapers, which IIRC take extra time to set up in order to deal optimal damage.
    
  • What am I missing... Dire Avengers - the generalist class - they are not faster (unless coordinating with transports), they are simply able to get an extra cooldown mechanicwith their Autarch (ugh I can't remember names) allowing them... that extra cooldown mechanic. These mechanics are like... "fire at double rate for one turn" or "having a magic shield" for one turn. At best you get a better alpha strike. Which probably won't translate to Eternal Crusade because they don't use a Sergeant - Squad mechanic.
• Basically none of the Eldar infantry in 40k really depend on speed (besides, again, using transports). They more-so depend on combined tactics between specialized units.
  • If anything, the Wraithguard, Wraithlord army is the "the 'strong' army by definition of being able to move straight ahead."
• Finally, to be honest, the true strength of the Eldar army (in tabletop) is spells. Farseers.

(BTW just for interesting knowledge and not for supporting any special argument: A Blood Angel army out-speed the shit out of the Eldar. It could probably smash the Samm-hain fluff Elder Jetbike army (though mainly because Jetbikes are above average but Blood Angels with flying Furioso Librarions )

---

Now for tabletop Chaos, from off the top of my head:

First, note that these are elite specialized classes that cost more than the base classes. And these elite specialized units cost more than the units of the Eldar because specialized units are the base class of the Eldar.

• Khorne: Khorne Berserkers, melee only, run forward fast.
• Nurgle: Plague Marines, I believe are simply Tactical Marines that have more health.
• Noise Marines: Pretty again Tactical like but with other uses.
  
• Rubric/Tzeentch Marines: Who move slowly but can shoot while moving.

So you see, no single unit is "move straight ahead" except for a Khorne Berserker.

Again, the above 4 units cost extra points compared to the three basic units

• Generalist ("Tactical"-equivalent")
• Jump Assault (Raptors... which are/were shittily balanced in mechanics/effectiveness with respect to point cost), and
  
• Heavy weapons (Devastator equivalent)

These are the three basic units which are no different from SM (or intended not to be different... but are because of Games-Workshop-balance). I dare you to look at the SM codex and the CSM codex and show me how the CSM have more "move straight ahead" units. In fact, SM has strong "move straight ahead" units in terms of Vanguard Veterans.

(Okay, all of this is from 5th edition)

 

[Mangoose]

Noise marines are going to be in the next update for Eternal Crusade according to the news section within steam. If true then.... AW YEAH.

Goddamn I remember that they are awesome but I forget why. asuifbhsuabhlasdf

 

[Excidium II]

I hope it's old school noise marines models.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Noise marines are going to be in the next update for Eternal Crusade according to the news section within steam. If true then.... AW YEAH.

Goddamn I remember that they are awesome but I forget why. asuifbhsuabhlasdf

Seriously though, I think they might serve as either close range suppression specialists or long range demolitionists through use of the Blastemaster. I have doubts about the Blastemaster actually being in the game at first though since it is so similar to the plasma cannon and las cannon... but hey, it's all good in my book.

 

[Caim]

Sonic Blasters are like Bolters but with a higher rate of fire and Ignore Cover. So maybe it can have a bit of a blast radius that goes through cover? The Blastmaster has two firing modes: either as a Heavy Bolter (once again ignores cover) or as a Krak Missile with a small blast. So they can give up a bit of range in return for some blast damage and ignore cover. Oh, and the Sonic Amplifier (or whatever it's called) can be an extra equip for a champion that serves as a flamer-like weapon that can be fired independently.

But the real question is: what will the weapons sound like?

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Like a glorious dirge that'll bring catharsis to those who hear it. (hopefully)

AS LONG AS IT ISN'T A FUCKIGN WUB WUB DUBSTEP CANNON GOD DAMMIT

 

[Caim]

Like a glorious dirge that'll bring catharsis to those who hear it. (hopefully)

AS LONG AS IT ISN'T A FUCKIGN WUB WUB DUBSTEP CANNON GOD DAMMIT

Make it a riff so powerful it'll blow your mind.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Electric guitar marines are real.

 

[Mangoose]

Gotta give'em props for picking Noise Marines.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

For sure. Now switch over to the evul muhreens and we can destroy METAL BAWXES together. Or are you a COWARD, A FEWL?!

 

[Mangoose]

Beat the shit out of a few guys with my Ground Assault

They weren't Nurgle though. And they probably weren't that good.

 

[Mangoose]

For sure. Now switch over to the evul muhreens and we can destroy METAL BAWXES together. Or are you a COWARD, A FEWL?!

I have one of each. Probably gonna have one of each faction. Unless you guys want to focus on one or something. Don't matter to me.

 

[Aothan]

However, what I am saying is there is no (or little) correspondence between unit availability per race in Eternal Crusade and unit availability in the Warhammer strategy games

the discussion concerned has been whether design reflects intended similarities and differences of armies associated with source material (not unit availability)

So in this instance, stop friggin telling me I'm wrong about the differences in how SM and CSM play in this specific game when I not only see jack shit difference during gameplay, but that I see absolutely no difference when setting up loadout for the THREE BASIC UNITS WHICH MAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE ARMY.

and abilities, which is precisely what constitutes the key difference these and all other discussions on Steam and the official forums are concerned with, and which you also have stated, I am just going to quote your comments and not bother addressing this point furthermore:

"Not to mention it's fucking easy to balance the Nurgle class: You decrease the amount of health it has."

Eldar speed comes from vehicles, not units

abilities and special rules, not exclusive to vehicles (and this comment of yours was already explained by someone two pages ago), the outline you continue with shows how in practise this is intended to work; Eldar can maintain mobility in situations in which units from other armies would no longer be able to continue moving, this is in effect an advantage of moving 'faster' across the field. This is how Eldar's speed, combining movement and combat, is instantiated into rulesets, and likewise how the same is reflected in general unit design and abilities in different genre (including fiction and the 'fluff') formats.

I can only try to be polite, and for now it would seem the best possible way to resolve this discussion is to not needlessly continue, really at this time for me it is all a matter of watching to see how the game will develop

 

[Mangoose]

However, what I am saying is there is no (or little) correspondence between unit availability per race in Eternal Crusade and unit availability in the Warhammer strategy games

the discussion concerned has been whether design reflects intended similarities and differences of armies associated with source material (not unit availability)

Any smart designer would know, based on the genre and the intent of the game, which similarities and differences of armies in the source material they should pick, which similarities and differences they should tweak, and which similarities and differences to completely ignore.

This is how you design a game.

and abilities

THE THREE BASIC CLASSES HAVE THE SAME ABILITIES. Jesus fucking Christ.

The Tactical Marine has the same abilities as the Traitor Marine.
The Assault Marine has the same abilities as the Raptor.
The Devastator has the same abilities as the Havoc.

I can repeat this ad nauseum if you want.

and abilities, which is precisely what constitutes the key difference these and all other discussions on Steam and the official forums are concerned with, and which you also have stated, I am just going to quote your comments and not bother addressing this point furthermore:

"Not to mention it's fucking easy to balance the Nurgle class: You decrease the amount of health it has."

The Nurgle class does not have extra abilities. It has more health. That is the only "ability" it has. I don't know why you don't believe me, but the Nurgle class does not have extra abilities.

The Nurgle class has no extra abilities. It has more health.

The Nurgle class has no extra abilities. It has more health.

Should I repeat this?

Instead, the Space Marine GROUND ASSAULT class HAS extra abilities because of its Storm Shield, which makes it the only class that can actively block.

Yet you keep spouting information that is completely wrong and I have no idea where you get that information from. I just played for an hour so, you can either listen to those idiots, or you can listen to someone who plays.

abilities and special rules, not exclusive to vehicles (and this comment of yours was already explained by someone two pages ago), the outline you continue with shows how in practise this is intended to work

And guess what a smart designer does? He designs these classes so that they have differentiation YET those differentiations are set up in ways/subinterfaces so that they can be balanced easier as beta goes on (and of course after release). You know what's one way? Making speed a goddamn number, and changing that number if the differentiation gets too out of hand.

Eldar can maintain mobility in situations

Nope.
(1) Situation, not situations.
(2) Units from other armies can also do so.

Btw, how do Wraithguard maintain mobility in situations? How do Wraithlords? How do Swooping Hawks jump into melee?

in which units from other armies would no longer be able to continue moving

Nope, there are actually of other units that can move and fire at the same time, which actually Eldar cannot do.

This is how Eldar's speed, combining movement and combat, is instantiated into rulesets

No, it doesn't, and that's because you don't look at how people build their armies and look at battle reports.

Should I repeat again that the Eldar's chief advantage are Farseers?

(including fiction and the 'fluff')

Going by fiction, a single Space Marine will win every match. (See the hilarious "Movie Marines" article in one of White Dwarfs)

I can only try to be polite

Nobody cares if you're polite, because politeness is rhetoric, not reason. And it doesn't hide the fact that you said, "Chaos can run forward as an effective strategy!"

BTW, if you want mobility, you want Tau, which has jump-in-jump-out mecha-suits.

 

[Aothan]

They don't, because:
Tacticals Marines are identical to Traitor Marines in every aspect except for horns...The Nurgle class does not have extra abilities. It has more health. That is the only "ability" it has.

so besides 'horns' there are some quantitative differences, the very same we have been talking about all along, noting when you now say:

I can repeat this ad nauseum if you want.

you have since changed from "every aspect" to "same abilities", and I've tried to avoid prolonging any further conversation that is only going to exacerbate needless misunderstandings

there are other points relevant to this discussion, although I've also decided to limit those, but for the sake of offering a peaceful gesture it has appeared (from my limited perspective) to me that you are susceptible to stress having a catalytic effect (which is fine, stress can be 'good' for some of us if properly managed), and this may account for tunnel-like vision and awareness, perhaps behaving (increasingly) erratically during times of experiencing stress, whilst this is a complex phenomenon in its own right I would suggest including a reasonable amount of olives, which are also very complementary with cheese and can serve numerous other health benefits

olives ideally should be a part of any Western (modern) diet, at least every so often, and the usual supermarket variety is as good as any other, they are also make for very simple but sincere gifts to give to parents and friends since it is a meaningful gesture that can significantly assist personal health and well-being in a number of ways (please remember to include olives every so often)